Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

The thing I don't get is all the hue and cry over an announcement of SPECS.

Those are all well and good. But it's like dating a girl based on a photo and a page of measurements. It says nothing about the critical factors of personality and "fit" with your individual wants and needs. As with dating, you've got to physically approach and interact with the camera and figure out if it works for YOU.

What do it's pictures look like? How does the new chip configuration handle smear, color, whip pans, low light, bright light - when you pull the cards and put them in the reader, does your software SEE them? Or do you have to wait for some new EOS utility or Transcode process to plug into your FCP-X or Premier Pro or AVID software?

How will all this work.

People are condemning or praising this based on the initial marketing announcements. If these are like ALL the other marketing announcements I've ever seen, the companies job is to make it look like the best thing since sliced bread - and the blogosphere's job (seems) to be to gleefully point out why whatever it is, it's clearly the single most evil thing since the advent of herpes.

The truth is that what makes cameras succeed is whether the people who can afford a particular camera design, begin to use it, and find that the process is SATISFYING. If it is, those cameras do fine. If they do not, they fail. And that has only a little to do with the specs on the page.

Put simpler, anyone who thinks the pleasure of making a satisfying creative work is exclusively baked into the tools is a fool. The tools enable you to cross a creative threshold that you establish for yourself based on your training and sensitivity. If 5 cameras meet your threshold, the choice between them becomes trivial - in exactly the way that an excellent piano player can play a Steinway, a Yamaha, or a Bosendorfer and adapt to the peculiarities of the instrument and be satisfied.

Canon appears to have put out a nice, reasonably priced (tho not super-cheap by design) new camera. How it's footage actually looks and whether people can adapt easily to how it operates are the intangibles that are actually in play here.

And discussing them too much before enough people actually USE the cameras is, IMO, kinda dumb.

FWIW.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Really! thanks, missed 'em in the hoopla :)

Bill, I agree but based on the Sword posted here by Chris .. and my laptop :( This new 300 looks to be getting away from the basic 'cold' Canon look and more towards the Panasonic look .. my 2 cents.

Cheers.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

But nowadays, isn't the "look" of any half-way decent camera really only a factor of out of the factory line-up? A big change in the last couple of decades is that previously only the very top end models could be extensively tweaked ex-factory - now it's possible with any half-decent prosumer model upwards?

So a few tweaks on the menu and a Canon camera gets the "look" of a Panasonic one, and vice versa?

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

The press photos don't show it that well... see these pics instead (click to embiggen).

The monitor / XLR unit can be positioned in a variety of angles.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

I agree that the very limited specifications released by camera manufacturers only tell part of the story. But sometimes that part is more than enough to condemn the camera for a particular use. If a project requires more than the specs provide, then it doesn't matter how much I play around with the camera. On the other hand, if the camera does meet the minimum required specs, it may still be disqualified in hands-on testing.

Most of the parameters you mentioned could be listed as specifications (smear, color, whip pans, low light, bright light), but since the manufacturers don't give out that information, we have to wait for testing. Others don't really have a specification (e.g. "feeling").

I disagree.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

we (the 3 of us) were particularly looking for the tell-tail smear that I see in a lot of the other cameras and we saw it in TWO shots that were using very fast camera movement..out of 4 films.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

You do realize there are people outside of Hollywood that buy cameras. Probably only a very small percentage of the DSLRs sold were southern California purchases. I just don't see Canon selling many of these things outside of Hollywood. It's a big market for cameras there, but its not that big.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

I suspect Jim does indeed realize cameras are sold outside of Hollywood. His livelihood depends on it.

I think the C300 will sell pretty well. Not 5D good, but I think it'll make Canon some money. It seems to be a really nice camera.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

After watching a few of the vids done on the C300 it's obvious that they have a really good camera to compete in a certain niche. No complaints...it's Canons flagship.

The rub is those of us who have been begging for canon to bring us a step up alternative to the DSLRs are left wanting. And I'd imagine that market-wise it's 100-fold the size of the market they released the C300 for. Look at the amount of af100 and fs100's that have been sold. I'd bet those cameras stole DSLR users away from Canon.

On one hand, why wouldn't Canon continue to shove DSLRs down our throats. They can double dip in the video and photo marketplace. And anyone who's currently using a DSLR already has the support gear and workflow figured out.
On the other, imagine their dominance of the mid level production world if they offered a camera that could control their lenses, had the 50mbps codec, a large sensor and cost the same as the XF300/305 with the same division base/hdsdi-genlock models. And they wouldn't need to offer a lens as we all have the glass we need!
They would make a killing with the current masses of DSLR users!
Same points could be made for Red's ever increasing price point on the Scarlet.

I think both companies, while trying to offer top end tools have left a huge black hole in the production world that desperately needs to be filled. Right now it's Panny and Sonys game and that's where my money may go when I decide to pull the trigger.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Selling large numbers don't mean that a product is profitable. It's one of those turnover V profit issues that have caused companies to go under.

I don't think this particular camera was ever intended for people who have been using DSLRs and wishing to remain at that budget level. It's more a statement of intent that they have entered a particular market. At this price the C300 isn't limited to Hollywood, there's quite a broad international professional market that could potentially be interested in the camera. There are advantages to the camera, although what the final street price will be remains to seen, but it will be closer to F3 or ideally between the FS100 and the F3 (although I don't think it'll go below the F3 price), than DSLR .

Sony didn't release the FS100 at the same time as the F3, although it was strong hinted at and there was also a mock up.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Canon's foray into the Hollywood market means that they'll test the water with their technology which will incorporate to the lower end models. So in the end, the benefit is to us, the ones that don't have that big of a budget.

I'm eagerly anticipating on the C EOS DSLR :-)

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

BTW... for those with short memories, Jim, Glen, Robert Dave, Chris myself and others had pretty much this same discussion a year ago where Glen asserted Canon, like Apple, actually does not produce products by listening to customers (see post #43)
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xf...down-line.html

Oh, and back then there was the hope of an XF200 to fill the famous "gap" and a solid state XL none which happened.

This is as a good a description as any of what I read the OP expressing. There isn't one "customer". There are market segments. Each company defines and targets them. The question is how many segments are on Canon's spreadsheet and which are they targeting with which product (if at all). For Canon, many segments are covered by HDSLRs versus competitor camcorders and thus single camera customers of Canon are frustrated with the HDSLR audio and video "workarounds" trying to use HDSLRs in ENG use cases. Actually, staying loyal in this situation may feed a "they'll never leave us ... let them eat cake" corporate strategy... especially in lean tsunami ridden times.

You are absolutely right that products are profit driven. But looking past the Canon line, the Sony Z5, Z7, AX2000, NX5U, EX1r, EX3 are six, count them SIX, 3-ring solid state 3-chip cameras across a price range from $3k to $8K. Two have interchangeable lens mounts. In that range, Canon has one fixed lens solid state camera at $6500/$7500 and a companion 10x lensed 1-ring "little buddy" camera at $3k. Several sub $6K market segments exist and other companies are competing in them. Arguably, Canon, after 3 years and several product cycles has never provided a solid state equivalent for it's tape based A1 prosumer customers. This lament is a recurring theme here on DVinfo. And recall, the XF300 came out almost 2 years after the EX1 when Sony was shipping the version 2.0 of that camera.

In the single chip "Cinema" space, the Sony VG-20, FS-100 and F3 define 3 body-only price points at $1600, $5K and $14k. Panasonic has the AF-100 at $4800. Canon has one at a TBD street price off of $20K list.

There are various segments. Canon's decade long MO is to be last to market with a package differentiated in some way. It has few products in these segments. It's getting coverage using HDSLRs which Sony and Panasonic also have but without the 12-minute restriction. So in spite of reading DVinfo (actually some say line employees read it and translate it to management so I wrote my feedback in Japanese once), threads like this keep coming up and more Canon customers move on to other company's product lines. If Glen is right, Canon doesn't produce products by listening to customers anyway.

Actually, the analysis I agree with is that like the XL-H1, Canon aimed the XF300 and it's 422 CODEC squarely at the broadcast market. The XF100 was a companion "buddy" product for POV applications. Neither addressed the customer requirements for a solid state A1 replacement segment. Those customers either downgraded to the 1-ring 10x XF100 or XF10 consumer camera, moved to HDSLR or went to Sony, JVC, or Panasonic. So for the current Canon line, getting technology in lower end models is a downgrade compared to other product lines. Wait for the C EOS DSLR all you want, people have been waiting for the 5DM3 for a couple years already. There's no assurance the C EOS DSLR will be full frame either. The VG-20, FS-100 and AF100 are out there now.

I don't see it as "they'll test the water with their technology which will incorporate to the lower end models" at all. Any more, Canon enters late (on purpose) with something aimed at the broadcast (and now Hollywood) segment(s) then produces a second model which is still (from a product feature perspective) aimed at complimenting the high end segment not the under $5K prosumer segment. Take it or leave it. Hence my point earlier about "eating the scraps off the broadcast/cinema segment table". In fact, the A1 could be viewed in the same way, a compliment to the XL-H1 that (happily) also satisfied a piece of the prosumer upgrade-to-HD demand.

Look, I was as rabid a Canon XL1s, XH-A1, 20D, S95 toting fan-boy as they come. I wish Canon produced the camcorders when I needed them but they didn't. Others did so I moved on. I tolerate the 5DM2 because it doubles as a stills and b-camera for traveling. Otherwise, I'd have moved to an FS-100 or AF-100 for sDOF in a heartbeat (or if it were now, take a look at the VG-20).

IMHO, loss of market share actually does show up on a spreadsheet at Canon and is probably a far more influential form of feedback for us "folks" than posting here. As I say often, brand loyalty only helps the brand, not you. Stop waiting around, buy from the company that makes what you need and go tell stories. It's much more fun that being frustrated with equipment that doesn't do what you need. IMHO.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Very true but I'm surprised that Canon hasn't gone after market share with the C300, enabling them to recoup R&D from volume sales and also selling a lot more lenses. I'd love to know the production cost of the C300 but considering it is the guts of the XF300 (or even XF100) minus a lens and plus a larger sensor, I can't see that it would exceed the low thousands of dollars.

There has been mention of Canon stills and video departments not wanting to tread on each others toes. Maybe that inflated the price of the C300 - ensuring that it was a totally separate market segment from HDSLRs.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Actually, Les, I was quoting Steve Jobs as an example of how a company can be so original, they create products you WANT, not always necessarily what you need. Apple makes products based upon what they think people will want, and bypass the focus groups and such. It doesn't always work out; Apple does have some big failures in their history.
Maybe the XF300 was somewhat like that. Canon knew they had to enter the tapeless broadcast market, so they came up with a doozie of a camera. So good, right off the bat, it was accepted as the first full-acquisition 1/3" chip HD cam by the stoic BBC. Many cried out that it should have been a 1/2" chip cam, but Canon made it 1/3" anyway.
But based upon what I've been hearing about the development of the C300, Canon does listen to its customer base. The 5D, which started the low budget, large sensor video revolution, was an answer to requests from photographers for a DSLR camera that could also shoot HD video. The success of the 5D caught even Canon by surprise. So by listening to one group of customers, Canon inadvertedly created a whole new customer base.

I agree with others who state this is Canon's first step into the new market of digital cinematography. I know many aren't happy with the price, or its lack of some higher-end features (10-bit), but it still seems like a heck of a good camera. We'll soon see what the actual street price will be. And I'm sure this is the first product of many, so hang on; it will only get better. Remember, the XF300 begat the XF100.

I'm still more intrigued by that new cinema DSLR. This could be that mid-tier cinema camera everybody's hoping for.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

It is ironic how well Sony and Panasonic listened to Canon's customer base. They really didn't like what happened with the 5DII. Canon responds with the 1DX for sport shooters, and a $20,000 video camera. Neither available in 2011. It's hard to see a customer focused well executed corporate strategy here. Even assuming the video out of each of these new cameras is superb.

The sensor of Cinema DSLR will be full size (FF35 or whatever we're calling it) because the only processor package likely to handle the large file is in the pro size 1DX. Canon's not going to make a whole new camera. They're going to stick a purpose-built sensor in what they got. If they get crazy maybe they'll change a couple buttons on the 1DX body to make the "C" version.

Would a C100 sell? The C300 body with a regular bayer sensor (2-3K) and the XF100 processor package? It would have huge photosites like the F3. Obviously it would still be 8 bit.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

You say they do while others say they don't. The only way both can be correct is to understand they are different "customers" or market segments. The Canon camcorder product line reflects broadcast and cinema customers. Other videographers are getting their Canon gear from still camera designers and engineers.

When I hear people complain about Canon not listening, they are a customer segment not satisfied by the HDSLR and broadcast/hollywood driven products. That's the segment that keeps stringing along hoping for a "buddy" version they can afford (or scraps off the table version as I called it) while (generally speaking) the features they want are already available elsewhere but they want some special spec in their equipment and are being "loyal".

The 5DM2 was not meant to be a video camera. It was a happy accident. The XF300 begat nothing. I think Canon thought there was a need for a POV camera with a compatible codec for it's broadcast customers. Those are the requirements I see in the XF100, not the requirements of the $3000 prosumer one man band customers....unless they like the broadcast driven features (or scraps). In fact, the XF100 was the discussion point where you made the point about Canon "creating products that you want". Lots of under $5k prosumers taking a pass on a 10x, single ring, single 1/3" camera downgrade.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Let me give it a shot. :)

The oldest DSLR in Canon's lineup is the 1D3s. The rumor sites have tied themselves in a knot over a 1D4s (and a 24-70/2.8L IS lens) for well over a year, but it never came about in the Digic IV generation. Now the Digic V is available and shipping in some point and shoots. It's not really a surprise that the first camera out is a full frame 1D(s) model. It unites the 1D and 1Ds lines. And, yes, they listened to us. All indications are that it should have minimal aliasing and reduced rolling shutter (due to the faster sensor & processing).

This sets the stage for the next 5D, 7D, etc. But, development schedules being what they are, and the tsunami causing heartache and delays, we won't get these Digic V models until 2012. Undo the tsunami and we would probably be scrambling to buy the initial 5D3 (5D X?) cameras right now.

Now consider the C300. This is part of a major "customer focused well executed corporate strategy" where the company is launching a new service center and entering a brand new sector for Canon. The business model is built on low volume and high pricing, which is the norm for that customer base. The first product is somewhat modest, but that's due to using the older, 8-bit, Digic DV III image processor in order to accelerate their entry. Clearly, this is only the first in a line of products. (And don't forget the lens announcements which are also part of the strategy at > $6k per prime lens.)

As I see it, the strategic moves are clear and are being well executed, given the reality that product development takes time and a major natural disaster can disrupt the best of plans.

The bottom line is that the recent announcements target the pro still shooter and Hollywood. Canon was clearly sensitive to the fact that they didn't address the lower tiers; hence, the sneak peek at the Cinema DSLR. We have yet to see what the company will do next for the consumer DSLR and budget video shooter markets. Those plans have yet to be revealed.

Maybe we'll learn more at CES in early January...

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Problem is how will they separate a lower class model. They can't realistically step down from 1080p or decrease framerates. With the XF100 already recording at 50Mbps that would also be a hard omission to justify. They could remove HDSDI output and XLRs but then you are heading away from a video camera by doing so. Output also can't go any lower than 8 bit.

They could develop a cheaper sensor but would that really be more cost effective than using what they have already developed?

I think that is why people are surprised by the announced price. It appears to sit more between the F3 and the FS100, not above the F3. As all three of those cameras are capable of great images and all have major ergonomic shortcomings, a lot of buying decisions will be based on the specs and resulting workflow.

Okay, so Canon (or anyone else) if you are listening, I'd love to see:

C300's S35 sensor, exchangeable EOS/PL/Nikon mount, C300's 50Mbps 4:2:2, (F3's) 4:4:4 Dual link 10 bit output (combined with a sensor capable of true 4:4:4), proper movie camera ergonomics with VF in the right place (a little like the JVC HD100 line).

Prores recording would be a nice option too, maybe as a separate add on integrated into the design. 4K RAW as another option.

Eventually I think we'll see simultaneous RAW and processed recordings like we already have in stills but maybe that is still a few years off. That would be great for documentaries offering speed and flexibility when required.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

I'm not sure that the C300 itself is "Hollywood", it's market it broader than that. The Paramount launch is more a statement of intent that they're getting involved in the higher end professional market, both with the lenses - Fujinon have been involved with Arri and the cameras.

This particular event wasn't really the place to launch a lower end camera, there are numerous shows during they year for doing that.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

I'd agree. In fact, I'd say it's more "Burbank" (TV) than "Hollywood" (Cinema), if you know what I mean, and TV production is done worldwide. The announcement and the commitment to the industry with the new service center imply that this isn't about a single product. It's a whole new commitment to the professional video market.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Mike put it well. And really that is what concerns many of us sub-10K camera buyers. How does Canon produce a lower cost camera for this market. The features of the C300 are not so great that this is easy to do. No 10-bit, no RAW, no 2K, no high bit-rate. The only thing they can do is dumb down the sensor. Which may not actually be economically necessary. Remember that just because they have to charge $16K for selling volumes in the 10,000s doesn't mean they can't make a profit by charging $8K selling volumes in the 100,000s.

What many of us are griping about is not that Canon can't have a high-end camera. It's that they painted themselves in a corner with this camera so that they almost can't release a lower-cost camera. I'm just not sure where Canon goes from here.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

It does seem like a challenge to make a lower price model. But Canon has a master plan. They have a lot of smart people working over there so they likely have this worked out already (stuff is being designed right now).

One thing we know is Canon video cameras tend to have a price premium. So an AF100/FS100 competitor might be priced a little higher...say $7K. If the C300 hopefully comes in at $16K street (no guaranteed of this though), then the challenge is to reduce the price by about $9K. Let's see if that's feasible.

1. They could lower the build quality. Use more plastic.
2. They could remove all the weather sealing.
3. They could replace the motorized ND filter system with a standard manual filter wheel.
4. They could make the camera bigger and heavier to accommodate the manual filter wheel and/or differentiate it from the C300 form factor.
5. They could go to a standard handycam design and eliminate the attractive modular aspects. This would save money in the grip and the LCD monitor unit and differentiate it from the C300.
6. They could get rid of the Wi-Fi connection.
7. It might be EF only so PL users will need their own adapter, which is not as attractive as the PL mount C300
8. They could take out the Canon log gamma.
9. They could take out the true 24.00p recording (23.98p instead). True 24p is attractive to Hollywood for intercutting with film originated material, so excluding this would differentiate it from the C300.
10. They could remove Sync, Genlock, Timecode or HD-SDI. I hope they don't remove HD-SDI, but they could justify it with the 422 50 Mbps codec.

What I don't think they will remove is:

1. The sensor. Seems more economical to use the same sensor. The sensor also already works perfectly with the DigicDV III processor.
2. The codec. Canon is already willing to put this codec in the $3000 XF100.

Remember, they don't necessarily have to remove $9K in cost. Some or a lot of that reduction could just be a smaller profit margin. The C300 probably has healthy profit.

Take for example RED's Epic-X ($35,000) and Scarlet-X ($10,000). That's a $25,000 difference. But RED has said the image sensor is exactly the same. The only difference is slower speed ASIC and some circuit boards. Can that really account for $25K in cost? Personally, I don't think it does. It just shows how much profit margin is in the Epic-X and how little margin is in Scarlet-X.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

I wonder if Canon's plan is simply to keep the lower cost market among its DSLRs. The new 1D and the DSLR they hinted at on Nov 3rd (the "C"?) may be what they fill in the sub-20K market with. So, the C300 could be lowest cost "cinema" camera they make.

Just a thought.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

If we look at how canon has differentiated the XL and A lines in the past and what sony has done with the f3 fs100...I think that we'll see two lower cameras eventually, similar in form factor to each other, smaller, but less modular (losing the removable controller/LCD) and fewer buttons than the c300. Same sensor and specs. One with hd-sdi and one without. $6K and $9K street price.

or maybe not.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

I'm in the same boat. Canon just lost me as a customer. I've waited WAY too long for them to come out with a shoulder mounted form factor of the XF line. Those little handheld camcorders may be all the rage but I hate them. I've been shooting Canon since the XL1 but I'm tired of waiting for the XF1 or whatever the heck they would call it. I should have jumped ship when they announced those little baby XF cams, what a friggin joke. 1/4" chips?

And now this camera system, $20k. Give me a break.

I was so excited to see the industry go tapeless, now not so much.

I'm very frustrated right now.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

That's a huge price drop for basically eliminating a screw - as we'll still need an LCD and XLR inputs that are permanently attached. Unlike Canon, Sony allowed themselves some wiggle room - first off the F3 is much cheaper than the C300 - so they can knock off $4000 to get to 9K. Easier than knocking off 10K which is what Canon has to do. Secondly, they can eliminate 10-bit and HDSI on a lower-priced camera. Personally I'm hoping they come out with something between the F3 and the FS100. The FS100 is just too weird of a camera for me to get behind.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Brett, try some of the FS100 koolaid. Weird or not, its surprisingly tasty.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

And this camera ISN"T aimed at them.

Next one might/likely WILL be.

The market most of us work in got the "hand me downs" from broadcast cameras at $60k for a body and $40k for a lens back in the day (around the time I started...)

This is the first step.

The long and the short of it is:

If this camera isn't aimed at you, it isn't aimed at you. Don't buy it.

I'm intrigued by it but think it is MARGINALLY overpriced, based on what we are hearing. MARGINALLY. Like most Canon stuff, IMHO. 15% ish. +/- 5%.

If I can make money with it, I will! Regardless of whether I think I pay too much up front.

If the business model is solid, you can make money with a $250k camera.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Here we go again...

In order to FORCE this camera to fit into a budget that folks have arbitrarily decided is what they are willing to spend, you are trying to "slit MY throat". I NEED those features in my next camera(s). PLEASE PEOPLE... stop trying to get manufacturers to produce yet another camera JUST LIKE what you are shooting now!

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Hmm...I think that a s35 sensor, super clean 1080p, ultra high ISO camera without genlock and hd-sdi is a pretty decent jump from the 5dmarkii or x300 for a lot of folks, certainly not "just like" what anyone in the canon world is using right now. A lot of people don't need those features and my guess is that the market would be huge for such a lower price point camera. And if the market is huge....well trust me Canon won't miss that. You need those features. Great...Canon already makes the camera you want. Sound's like you want the same camera in a lower price point (lower than $14-17k which is where the c300 will most likely land). Not gonna happen.

However, I still think the differentiation going forward will involve one camera with pro features you need with less modularity and probably a smaller form factor...they've done it too many times before to think against that notion. Canon will also make a nearly identical camera without those pro features, and I bet they will be released on the same day. They will be more costly than the x300-305...but not hugely so. Close crystal ball.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Hi Barry. I think you missed my point. I am one of the few posters here who IS willing to spend some reasonable cash. I WILL pay $14-17k if I like what I see when it starts shipping.

My point is that a LOT of the comments here are from people who seem to want Canon to produce a camera SPECIFICALLY for them and DON'T want to pay fair market value.

Try custom ordering a new car or truck - you will pay MORE than a better equipped package which may include things you don't want. The value of slim-lining/streamlining.

Just suggesting that the expectations that a lot of folks posting seem to have are unrealistic and frankly don't give Canon ANY credit for doing market research. The very title of this thread is passive aggressive and suggests that Canon is aloof and doesn't do end-user research JUST BECAUSE they didn't talk to a group of low/no budget indie filmmakers, wedding and event videographers and/or corporate videographers who want a solution TODAY.

Again, this camera isn't aimed DIRECTLY at that market. If you can manage to make it work for you in that segment, AWESOME!

This one is aimed at episodic television, broadcast documentary and larger budget indie films and above.

And frankly, it's nice to see some innovation in this (MY) market again. Even IF this camera didn't hit ALL the items on MY wishlist.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

--Hi Barry. I think you missed my point.--

I probably did somewhere around you wanting to slit your throat :-)

As someone who has gotten a chance to play with the camera, and as someone who did like what he saw, and as someone who will be pretty close to the front of the line when it's released, I also realize the pent up emotion of those who were expecting something different. I had pegged this camera in the $10-12k range prior to the announcement, but I'll bet many others thought that if Canon could put this type of sensor in a $2500 slr, then it could make a video camera for say ... twice that. I think where they (and I to some degree) failed was in recognizing the market (Alexa, Red, Sony F3) . For Canon to have a serious product it really needs to be in the same ballpark...which the c300 certainly is.

It will be interesting to see where Canon goes in the future. For now this is where it is. I'm, for one, am excited to jump in and test the waters.

Barry

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Good point about expectations, Barry.

People have been talking about two things around here (and elsewhere) for a long, long time: a 5D3 and DSLR guts in a video-specific body. In fact, back at CES, January, 2009, I asked a Canon salesperson about 5D2 guts in a video body and she responded that she had heard that question more than any other since the 5D2 had been released.

Loyal Canon video shooters hadn't really been thinking about a $16k+ TV series production cam. But that's what happens when a company enters a new market. The old market customers are unlikely to see the benefit.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

But it sounds like you want them to make one specifically for you. If you like the C300, buy it. It's just not going to work for me at that price point. I don't see how stating that and lobbying Canon for a different feature set and price tag is any different than what you are doing.

As far as fair market value, I'm not sure how you arrive at that. Suggesting that a large sensor camera with XLRs in a video body can't be made for less than $10,000 is absurd. We all know it can be done. Heck you can buy a T3i for $750 with a pretty good sensor in it. You can buy an audio recorder with XLRs for $500. You can buy a great Hi-def Viewfinder for $750. Stick them together and you're only up to $2000. Add and extra $7000 for R&D and profit and you're up to $9000. Pretty reasonable expectations in my book.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Just a note that the XF305 cams are 1/3", not 1/4. If you haven't used an XF300 series, don't knock it. It's an amazing camera with an amazing image, with a great workflow. And frankly, my XF305 is a better shoulder cam than the XL cameras ever were. Just use the LCD as a viewfinder. Try it, you'll like it.

I'm surprised no one's concerned about codec and workflow. That's worth the price of admission on this new cinema camera right there. XF files are a dream to edit and the images have that mojo that only Panasonic used to deliver. For professionals doing episodic work, the new camera should pay for itself many times over (in production costs) on the first shoot.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Is it just me or does it seem that Canon really doesn't go head to head in the video camera market? I mean above the consumer camcorders and HDSLR tier, Canon aims at market gaps.

Where there's competitors with products, Canon goes elsewhere. There's already three consumer 3-D cameras so no Canon product there. There's plenty of solid state 3-ring 3-chip handycams under $4k so no Canon product there. There's plenty of large sensor HDSLRs that record more than 12 minutes and don't flip the display output to SD so no Canon product there. There's already 2 $5k large sensor interchangeable lens camcorders with XLR so no Canon product there.

Granted there may be a couple exceptions like the GL-1 and GL-2 vs the PD170 but the XL1 was venerable and XL2 the only native 16x9 SD camera under $4k ... each one unique and priced in a gap. The A1 was best in class and priced well under Sony's 3-ring HDV XLR camcorders and the H1 an island. The XF100 at $3K is one ring but a 50MBS 4:2:2 CODEC. The XF300 right in the gap between EX1R and EX3 and the only handycam 3-mos with 50MBS 4:2:2. The 5DM2 similarly unique at $2700 and full of quirks....take it or leave it as the only full sized sensor camera. Ditto the C300 above the AF100, FS100, Scarlet and F3 but below Alexa and Epic. So if there is another large sensor camcorder body, we could expect it to be defined more by a gap than anything else....then again, that product may not be video camera at all but a $4k HDSLR.

So for people who have waited around a couple years for a Canon product in a particular segment where there's already products from others, well, you may end up feeling like the OP. Hope this helps. YMMV.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

To me the XF300 competes head to head with the EX1 and EX3. And the C300 competes directly with the F3. The gaping hole that I see is a large sensor camera between $6000 and $12,000. That plus the weaknesses of the FS100 (No ND, inability to shoot over your head, difficult ergonomics) and AF100 (poor low light performance) seems like Canon could own this market if they wanted to.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Chuck-
Ditto, ditto, and more ditto....

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Just like the flagship dslr $7k 21mp 1dsmarkIII came out almost exactly 1 year before the prosumer $2.9k 21mp 5dmarkII, (keeping in mind that video wasn't really a known subject with dslrs at that time) AND canon introduced the the $4-7k xh-G1-A1 cams 10 months after it introduced the $10k flagship xl-h1....

Canon will most likely release a lower cost video camera (or two) with similar specifications to the c300 within a known (to them) timeframe. It's how it goes.

Barry

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

I think many people are hoping that they will but what specs can they cut? Possibly Genlock (and HDSDI if they are really tight!). The form factor can't be much smaller like with the XHA1/XF100 and the frame rates can't really get any lower either.