Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Again, all you have to look at is the past. Canon xl-h1 modular design with lots of buttons $10K xh-g1 same basic camera, in smaller package, less modular...less buttons $7k. XH-A1 loses Hd-sdi and it's $4k+.

(or the dslr version comparison is even sharper... 1ds has better focus and framerates, batteries... 5d has better sensor and video, yet it's less than half the price).

It's easy not to see the value in minor changes like modularity, size and a few features, but in cameras there has always been a premium paid at the top end...that's why those cameras are released first. They are more profitable on a unit basis for canon (although at a much lower number of units). Then the hordes jump in when the price drops on the lower model.

As for size, this camera isn't as small as it looks in the photos...it's mostly shown with the primes which are huge so it looks smaller than it is. (and with the controller monitor mounted, it's looks like the pudgy offspring of a 1ds - XL union--the controller monitor almost feels like an add-on 3rd party device...interesting industrial design to say the least). It is small for a professional video camera, but they can definitely fit all that into a form factor more compact like the x300 series (fixed lens? who knows). I don't think you'll see the xf105 version of this camera...that will most likely come from the consumer division...think "rebel cinema".

Barry

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Okay, so I went to the canon site and checked out the footage from the C300. It does look good and I love the idea of what this camera can do in low light. STILL - WHY did Canon choose to leave out features that could have made this camera a contender. Anyone of these would be HUGE. They are imo:

#1) PRICE - had the C300 cost $8,900, Canon would sell many many more.
#2) 120fps@1080P (or even 60P@1080P for that matter)
#3) 10 bit out
#4) 4:4:4 out
#5) Global Shutter
#6) S-log out (though it is mentioned in one of the making of films it does do this?!)
#7) RAW internal recording

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Releasing a high-end model and following with the downscale version makes good business sense. Those with cash will buy the expensive model. Others wait and buy later. If you do it the other way around, those with cash might buy the lower priced model, if it meets all their requirements.

I still remember when Sony first came out with an SDI (standard def) line of broadcasting equipment. They had just won the SMPTE standards battle and clearly had the chips and a line of SDI products already in development. (That standards battle with Thomson was bare knuckled!) Anyway, the prices on those first products were astronomical. They didn't sell many, but it helped them pay for the R&D and to get the bugs out. The next year, SDI became available in normally priced products. It was a very effective strategy.

The high price of the C300 makes sense. Lower volumes can help Canon hit their delivery targets and it eases them into the market. They will get a feel for what it really takes to support this industry without diving straight into the deepest part of the pool. And, at the high initial price, they can fund this new venture.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Erm, this board has 5 people currently viewing it.
Reduser has over 1200 on the Scarlet alone.

This is the board for Canon imho. I think there's a message here.
Sure Canon will sell some, but had they priced the C300
under $9K, there might easily be 500 pouring over the details here and right now before buying.
I might even be one of them. $20K? No way. Not going to happen.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

#1- the direct competitors for this camera are the f3 $16k and the red scarlet (similarly equipped) $20k
#2 - 120 fps 1080p nobody does this in this price range...scarlet will give it to you at 1k in a severely windowed crop. I think the primary reason against 1080p 60 would be the 50mb codec, not sure you could get nearly as a clean a signal out of it. Canon admits their speed in introducing this camera relies on that codec..I suppose you could choose an f3 with avchd...:-)
#3 & 4 Ya got me there.
#5 I think they've got the electronics largely worked out on this issue with the c300
#6 There is C-log to the card and I'd guess thru the sdi.
#7) I still think this is overrated. Red doesn't have to process a good image by sending out a raw file with huge data requirements and a hella workflow. I'd prefer a traditional hi bit uncompressed output to prores or something of that nature.

I think this camera is certainly a contender due to the quality of the codec, the sensor and image processing and it's low light capabilities. It beats the competition in these categories handily at least for 1080p output. After watching the films at the canon event and seeing that in many cases they largely shot to compact flash, I cant imagine myself "needing" a lot of the things we're all grumbling about.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Larry Thorpe gave (what seems to me) a very frank interview on behalf of Canon. I don't know whether I may link to it directly, but he does say:
So to answer your question - "we lifted the digital processor and the codec from our little camcorder, the XF305 .. and that's why ...we were able to bring the camera to fruition relatively quickly" Later on, he says:

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Don't get me wrong. I and many others think the C300 makes some awesome images, and YET -

If the C300 had global shutter, that alone would be a very good sales point.
(even though I am not one to notice a lot of jello cam from my EXCAMs.)

PRICE? As is stated elsewhere, Sony leads and can now drop the F3's price to $12K and SMOKE the C300 - OR enable S-log and 4:4:4 as standard options and beat Canon for those who want those features (me for one) . Many buyers (me again) already have several
EX1 and EX3s and the F3 is a logical choice. Without *compelling reasons* why spend more on Canon?

I believe that Scarlet can do 60P at 2K. That alone whomps the C300 for those who want 2K slo mo (ME!).

Scarlet can do 4K!!! Hello? Maybe not needed right now, but might be tomorrow.
I see Scarlet as more future proof. New Dragon sensor might be even better than C300?!
Scarlet accessories work with EPIC, so I can load up on Scarlet gear and then rent an Epic brain if and when a high end shoot demands it. Canon? Not so much.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Jacques-
Either you haven't been reading these threads (you have) or you just want to keep dredging up the same thing, repeating whats been said over and over. You know it's not going to be $20K so why do you bring that up? You know that this 1st camera is not going to be $9K so why do you repeat what's already been stated? You know that there will be more cameras coming (4K & a lower priced one) later, so why harp on this 1st one. As for the RED forum, trying to compare how many RED devotes are falling over themselves in praising their new camera coming...soon...
Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

That's true, but it's windowed to 2/5 the linear size (and 4/5 the area) of the full 5K frame. Maybe it's useful if you can put a C-mount lens on it. Otherwise, you'd be limited to tele shots.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

rolling shutter...take a look at mobius near the end of the chase scene...there are 5 or 6 shots there that would certainly demonstrate the jello, if there were any.

What if sony dropped the price to $12K? that's a pretty big what if.

scarlet 60p at 2k. Guess it depends on how you like your 2k...crop factor 3.24 anyone? super 16 is nice...for film school...I guess.

Scarlet can do 4k. yup...at 24p...too bad 99% of its users will never do anything with that 4k but downconvert...and let's not forget all the hidden costs of that 4k. (I've got to admit that since I was a kid always wanted a red rocket..but I was thinking something that would go to mars..:-) Seriously, If I really needed 4k, I'd buy the epic. 4k is for effects guys...and effects guys like to overcrank...I'm told.

And load up on scarlet gear...well yes...yes you will. (especially batteries and media)

Here's the thing. I made the trip to LA to see the canon D&P show and then headed over to Red to take a look at scarlet. Canon had 20 c300s for me to take a look at in an unbelievable array of configurations...Red...well red being red didn't have a scarlet to show the day after their event. They said they wouldn't until they shipped. All those smart, smart RedUsers buying cameras they haven't even seen yet, from a company that has a history that is long on hype and filled with a lot of tripping over their own feet. Yup...If I were you...I'd buy a Red.

For me, I like the form factor of the c300, I like the codec, I like the compact flash i/o and mostly I like the image quality...and also I like that when Canon delivers it's camera, it will most likely be on time, and do exactly what it says it can do.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

There's rolling shutter and rolling shutter......

It all depends on readout speed - faster it is, less any effect. And another beauty of the way this sensor works is that simple may well equal fast.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

No need for a global shutter when you can do a relatively artifact-free rolling shutter.
While you can't expect to cleanly swish-pan the C300, the filmmakers who have used it have said that they had to work hard to introduce any noticeable skew.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

LIke I said Chris, rolling shutter has never been a big issue in my playbook.

Okay, if I'm all wrong, who here is going to pony up and buy?

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

We can't really compare the rolling shutter of the two cameras yet.

The 2011 Zacuto Shootout showed a couple of interesting things:
1) The RED ONE's rolling shutter isn't as good as many would lead us to believe, and
2) The Canon 1D4 rolling shutter was about half that of the 5D2 and 7D.

Unfortunately, they weren't able to test an EPIC. With the higher frame rates available, I can only assume that the read-reset time is faster than on a ONE. But since they're using slower chips on the Scarlet X, it might have more skew than EPIC. We can guess that it will be pretty good, but it's only a guess.

Regarding Canon, the low level of 1D4 skew impressed me. The C300 will be arguably faster. The sensor has fewer pixels, a smaller size, and is of the next generation. It's designed for a high-priced Hollywood cam and will clearly be deployed in future models. Those models might do 4K and faster frame rates. My guestimate is that will have half the skew of the 1D4. But again, that's a guess.

The bottom line is that both cameras are likely competent in the rolling shutter department, but until we see the footage, we won't know.

BTW, to get a hard number, shoot some video while triggering a photo flash unit on minimum power by hand. Capture a frame where the flash starts and ends within that frame. Capture two back to back frames where the flash starts on the first and ends on the second. From these, one can calculate exactly how long the rolling shutter time is. Post the frames and I'd be happy to do the measurements. :)

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

As if you couldn't tell, I'll most likely bite. Interesting, I spoke to my dealer (a major so-cal supplier) this afternoon and he said that as of this moment, canon hasn't even said who will be carrying the cameras, and thus he can't take orders for it. He fully expects that they will be approved, but there is precious little info from canon about anything at this point.

Barry

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

That's interesting Barry - almost seems like another thing not thought through. That said, from what I have seen, the C300 does make some wonderful images. I am sure whoever does make the purchase will certainly be happy.
Wish I could afford it myself or even suggest it for the University. But when put side by side with the F3, I couldn't justify the extra thousands. And right now, unless one needs it for a paying gig, the best thing for me is to wait until NAB (or later). Sorry to beat this horse, but if it were under $10K, that would change.

Anyone else?

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Actually it has been completely thought through. Re-read Barry's post: "Canon hasn't even said who will be carrying the cameras..." which is not at all the same thing as "Canon doesn't know who will be carrying the cameras." On this forum, please read posts for what they say and not for what you want to project into them.

The C300 will be a fairly exclusive item. It's not something a person can buy on Amazon. There are going to be only 20 dealers in the U.S. that will be able to sell them. Canon has already established who they are but have not announced their identities yet. I know of two DVi sponsors who will have them. You can expect the dealer list to be made public in January.

As far as the price is concerned, my take on it is that any pre-orders and any first-month sales will most likely go for full MSRP. You can expect the price to drop quickly soon afterwards.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

There are also hidden running costs like the recording media. The overall package needs to costed, including the post production.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

"Extra thousands"?? I don't know what the situation is in the US, but in the UK I'm hearing about £12,500 as the body only price (excl VAT) for the C300 versus about £10,000 for a basic F3 body only from at least one major dealer. But for those figures you do get a full broadcast spec codec with the C300 - you have to pay extra with the F3.

I don't deny that that still makes the C300 dearer - even after buying the recorder for the F3 - but those are initial prices for the C300. Either way, the difference is small compared to the difference between either of them and something like an Alexa or F65.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Yes, there are going to be just 20 dealers with 3 of them here in LA. I can tell you that there is great interest from people here in town (TV shows, rental houses, owner/operators) and as soon as Canon makes their dealer announcement, everyone here will know who & how much. Delivery is scheduled for the last part of January. Canon is fielding requests from a number of shows to try out the camera between now and the delivery date. 2 shows are scheduled to go up in February using the C300s.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Canon hasn't said who will be carrying the C300?

Hmm. In my world of careful production planning, I would have to label that as
either not thought through or poorly planned. In either case, it doesn't matter in the long run.

Maybe they want the re-sellers to be fighting each other for the enormous prestige of carrying the C300 Canon line, but come on, this is a camera, not blue diamonds being held back by DeBeers.
I cannot imagine that BH, BandPro and ZGC would be told no. So, again we're back to "what are they thinking'. Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

I can guess who those three might be. :-)

BTW, Jim thanks to Filmtools for sending out invites to the Canon event. Unlike another product launch across town, Canon treated us all very well. It was an extremely well thought out and organized event that really highlighted the new product and it's usefulness to the industry.

Barry

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Yes, recording media is a consideration, as well as batteries. The overall package might vary from user to user (lenses, follow focus, support gear, matte box, filters...), but you can't capture a single clip without media and power.

FWIW, my understanding is that the C300 will accept normal CF cards (though you might need to buy fast, approved ones), but that Scarlet X requires RED-sourced SSD cards. Fortunately, we can re-use media, so it's not like having to buy single-sourced, overpriced tape, but one still needs to take it into account for the budget.

That said, in this range, I'd be looking at capabilities first, price a distant second. On paper the C300 looks better for fast turnaround and the Scarlet-X looks better for heavy grading. I'd rather have the right tool for the job than try to pinch pennies on the camera and media.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

It was our pleasure....

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Of course not, it doesn't work that way at all, but I think you already knew that.

Since it's recording the Canon XF codec, the list of approved CF cards is exactly
the same as the one that appears on the Canon XF 305 / 300 product pages...
absolutely no difference in that regard.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

I think this is a big question for me. My 5dmark11 files seem to fall apart when you try to push beyond a little color or tone adjustment. And having never worked with a red file I'm certainly no expert but given the following assumptions: an extremely clean, properly processed 8 fit file (c300) converted to 10bit for grading versus a flat raw file (scarlet-X) that is perhaps not as clean a capture...is it an absolute fact that the red is more gradeable? (and that was a question not a statement).

At the canon event, we definitely saw films that weren't heavily graded. I think the talking points that came out of the viewings really were the hi ISO, dynamic range--highlight and shadow detail, "film noise", and from xxit, that the camera can work in virtual studio/effects situations, in addition to the primary message of a light, inexpensive production tool. The one film that seemed to have a "look" applied was "Sword" and I'm not sure it was that successful (to my eyes it seemed to be an attempt to squash some smoky shadows due to high ISO filming).

I'm not sure canon was attempting to shove "grading" behind the curtain...I think the biggest message was simply that you can use this camera for theatrical distribution thus striking 35mm prints, showing the films on a big screen and showing looks that had flattering skintones, and thus a look that was pretty mainstream. But it's still a question in my mind. I think Vincent Laforet was trying to get some ungraded footage up last week, but I don't know If he was successful.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

This is great info. This place rocks! :)

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Horses for courses.
What depends is how hard one is going to push the grade. 8 bit @ 50mbps is fine for a lot of stuff, but
raw@100-440mbps is going to give a ton more capability.

Convert 8 bit to 10 bit? I am not sure if adding two zeros does little more than increase file size, thought it might help slightly if processing the data through a few differing crunches. Others can weigh in with their experience.

As far as nothing but negative comments, please re-read my posts. I said the C300 made beautiful images and most purchasers would be very happy. BEAUTIFUL IMAGES AND VERY HAPPY.

"Negative comments" are not mine alone and not personal - like yours Sir. I am far from the only one who sees some gaps in what might be SUPER AWESOME. Please remember, it was Canon's vast over-reaching marketing spin that does NOT meet the camera reality. That kind of chest thumping is not savvy or necessary unless you can back it up in spades.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

I don't understand what you mean by "Canon's vast over-reaching marketing spin." Canon has not yet begun to market this camera. And it's going to be a fairly hard-to-get item, considering that only a handful of dealers can even sell it. It's not going to be seen all that much outside of broadcast television production.

The Hollywood event was more about the Cinema EOS line (keep in mind that all but two of the products in that line are lenses) and their new Hollywood office and lens repair facility.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

I looked around for the original Canon announcement - maybe you can post it for us. I might be WAY wrong here, but I seem to remember something about the 'event' being some kind of industry changing move by Canon - something that would alter Hollywood or some such. The anticipation built on various boards with Jannard going 'all in' by announcing Scarlet would also launch Nov 3rd.

Whatever it was Canon planned, Canon would not even confirm it was a camera - so the rumors spun up the heat (and maybe that was the hope?) that 'this game changer' could be anything, but it was certainly bound to be incredible.

Then, pip, the 1080P@30 fps, 8 bit, $20K 'industry rocker' near fizzle. SORRY NO SONIC BOOM HERE.
The _only_ reason it isn't a total fizzle imho, is because the images look so great and the C300's super low noise - low light capability. And sorry, I will say it again, PRICE MATTERS. Had this thing come out under $10K it would rock. The idea of a 5DMII with mic inputs and SDI out for an additional $16K just leaves me feeling like I was kicked in the teeth. Others feel differently, and that is cool, but so far we have ONE taker and even he is now asking about GRADING. Ask yourself and be honest, is the C300 the camera you would recommend for $20K if the buyer said he wanted the ability to really push the grade hard? And please, we know the answer.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

That topic (Nov 3rd announcement) has been discussed at length. The bottom line is that it was an historic announcement from Canon's perspective (new market, products, sensor, business strategy, support center.) It certainly wasn't an historic announcement from the perspective of typical Canon DSLR shooters. People who expected a 5D3 or AF100 competitor were disappointed.

But that horse has already been beaten into submission.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Didn't I read where many cams from the first batch will be offered to US rental outfits? Makes good sense on Canons part.

Cheers.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Jacques, all I remember directly from Canon is one single fairly anonymous "poster" advertising a "historic" announcement on November 3rd, which I first saw when Chris posted it here. ( http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/new-cano...ml#post1682321 ) I don't recall Canon themselves actually saying very much at all after that, certainly not "vast over-reaching marketing spin".

What did happen was that Red made their parallel declaration about also making an announcement on Nov 3rd, and Red did have quite a lot to say in the run up. Let alone all the speculation on forums such as this. But virtually nothing from Canon themselves - I certainly wasn't aware of "chest thumping" on their part. (And I have no direct or indirect vested interest in Canon or any other manufacturer.)

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Speaking as someone who grades films.. yes, absoutly r3d RAW has more options

And there is no such thing as "converted to 10 bit", 0-255 is still 0-255 even when inside a 0-1023 space.

Think like.. i buy 256 ounces of a good wine, and i pour the bottles into a 1024 ounce bucket... i don't somehow convert the 256 ounces of wine into 1024 do i?

I just have a half full bucket.. and a pile of banding issues on smooth graduated surfaces.. like walls, and the cheeks of softly lit leading ladies...

d

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

I totally agree. With R3D files, you can definitely go more directions than any 8 bit file. (I stated exactly the same words as you on another thread last week). I think the question that I meant to ask (and this is totally hypothetical--since there are no canon mxf files out there but one ultra-high iso sneaked shot from the event), is could using a combination of in-camera adjustments and "significant" post grading on the canon produce an equal or better file (1080P of course) when compared to scarlet. Or conversely, is it a given that an R3D will always produce a superior graded image to the canon mxf.

For the sake of argument, lets put this in "highly favorable for canon" framework. Two identical clips shot at say ISO 6400 or higher. One on Red 4k, the other on C300. From "what I've read" the Canon should produce a virtually noiseless image with a full 12+ stops of DR. Let's say that the DP was good and was able to get close in camera on the Canon using the internal 12bits to produce a great 8 bit file. From there, significant but not severe grading ensues. Now to the Red. From what I understand Scarlet would carry a fair amount of noise at this ISO and as Scarlet isn't capable of HDR, would probably be out of bounds on it's optimum DR. Now would that "flat, raw file" be able to produce as good a file as one off the C300?

Sure it's not a fair comparison...so how about at 3200? 1600? 850? Where's the line?

As I understand (and I may be wrong) the red "raw file" is true raw, so other than exposure parameters, all other adjustments are applied as post processing of the raw file. In the canon workflow, some adjustments can be made internally in 12bits prior to the production of the 8bit output file leaving less to do in final grading. So back to the top, red is definitely more flexible... but is it necessarily always more gradeable? (and it's ok to say yes here.)

Mostly you are right about this, and I'll not pretend to be an expert in video grading. However, I am an expert at grading in photoshop (as I shoot on a hasselblad, I have a pure 16bit workflow) and some of the techniques I use when bringing in outside 8bit images do see some benefit from bit upconversion. When I wrote the question last week, I did a little comparison here using some standard layered grading in photoshop, using an extremely clean 8 bit image and processing it identically in both 8bit and 16bit workflows. There were differences: both in the histograms and in increased visible banding in the 8bit workflow. It was a subtle difference, but one that did in fact matter. My guess is there are similar subtle differences obtainable in video as well. Furthermore the sensor does play a factor in this part of the equation. I know (again from photoshop) that 16bit files are not all created equal. A properly processed Hasselblad FFF, output to 8bit file is nearly as adjustable as a 16bit tiff output from a 5dmarkii CR2 because simply put, the 5d sensor isn't as good, thus the raw file isn't as clean, and therefore it's 16bit output is really something less than advertised.

Again my original question was purely for discussion's sake. As has been said here now many times: Both these cameras are most likely quite capable of outstanding images in the right hands.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Hi Barry..
today finds me juggleing three features, two of them were both shooting exteriors in the same city at the exact same day & time and i have both shows on my server currently.... the files have time/date stamps

in the one i''m just doing a final pass on currently there is one scene that they had lost sunlight, and shot anyway.. and the REDmx was clearly underexposed when the r3d's were debayered with metadata, but once i changed to print density and ran the ISO & noise reduction up the shots were recoverable, actualy it's a very nice scene... if you watch the film in your local cinema you would not know.

the feature i'm starting to grade next week is shot on F3/444/Slog.. also shooting at the same time, just down the road from the first crew.. the F3's footage looks very clean indeed when shooting into magic hour.. but it does lack the flexibality of the raw workflow.. i can't really make it be anything other than what it is already without jumping through hoops

Now all of these are being finished in Dci2K / P3 so i'm looking a colours that can only be reproduced by a digital cinema projector (or a very small handful of OLED & LED screens), and i'm looking at it on a 16 foot screen.

I don't think any YUV/422 50mbs 8bit codec would stand a even the slimmest of chances in this enviroment (2K/444/P3) - no matter how good the camera is, actualy any YUV/422/8bit even uncompressed would be challenged i would think

Most everything i have worked on has been shot on RED, film, or Alexa in the last few years, but i did grade a doco feature last spring shot mainly on EX3's - so 8bit/35mbs/Long GOP codec - a very good codec... it was far from easy... really, secondaries were tearing like crazy - it was so very limiting... basicly anything beyond a first pass is not possiable... i would expect much the same with the C300.


d

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Great post Dermot. Thanks for the short look into the complexity of what colorists like yourself are up against daily. It makes your perspective on the cameras much clearer.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

I think how much manipulation you want to do in post really depends on what you're trying to achieve.

Having put looks directly into broadcast cameras with comprehensive paint boxes, you can do quite a lot using that method, including the bleach by pass and other "looks". Of course, once set, you can't change your mind about a look strategy, which can be more a producer issue than a DP one or perhaps even one for the director.

On the other hand, DPs do put their look into the LUT for on set viewing when shooting RAW and the final film looks nothing like they were trying to achieve because everything has been changed during the grade.

From what I read by an extremely fussy DP who had a quick grade using the rushes from the one shorts, the images don't fall apart when pushed. He mightn't have been doing as much manipulation as been suggested here, but he's positive about what he's seen to date (regardless of the numbers) and thinks the C300 should considered as an option for low budget TV drama series.

Canon seem to have other cameras in the pipe line, so it appears that the needs of people needing more post work will be met by those cameras rather than this one. Not all productions have a lot of grading done in post and the C300 seems to be aimed at them.

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

When your talking about pro level camera, anything from an EX1 upwards, IMHO the first thing that will make it hard to grade an image is noise. This is simple enough to confirm, take two shots with the same camera at a low gain/ISO setting and a high gain/ISO setting but exposed so the recording levels match, then try to grade those two images. The difference is normally striking.

I hear a lot of talk about shooting at very high ISO's and really have to ask why? I have an F3, it's 800 ISO when using S-Log, frankly I'd rather it was 400, not because it's too noisy, but just because it's really more sensitive than I'd like. There's lots of talk of using high ISO to reduce the amount of lighting that you need, but in reality that argument doesn't work. If you shooting a lit set, maybe with practicals, then you'll still need decent lamps to light the seen so the practicals are not blowing out. If your shooting outside during the day then any fill lamps still need to be just a bright as you generally working against the sun or ambient light. At night in a city your going to be working against the general street lighting, store fronts etc.

So what's key is how much noise the camera produces in the 400 to 1000 ISO range IMHO. This, I believe is the comfort zone we should be working in. More than this and the camera is becoming too sensitive.

After noise comes bit depth. Bit depth becomes more and more critical as the dynamic range of the camera output increases. An 8 stop camera using 8 bits is 1 bit per stop, not so bad perhaps, but when you start going up to 10, 12 even 14 stops then 8 bit struggles, there just isn't enough data. Now you can take an 8 bit output and convert it to 10 bit using a decent interpolation algorithm that will calculate the expected in between values. This can bring a reasonable improvement over raw 8 bit as it's not that hard to estimate what the in between values should be with some accuracy. It's not going to be as good as an original 10 bit source, but for not so severe grading it can work well.

Where you really get in to trouble is when you start using highly compressed 8 bit codecs with high dynamic ranges and a lot of noise.

All of this brings us back to the key differentiator between all these new super 35mm cameras. That differentiator is the operator. A skilled operator that appreciates the limitations of the camera and workflow that he has chosen will be able to produce a great image. I'm quite sure you will be able to grade C300 footage, provided it has been shot in a manner sympathetic to the way it's recorded and processed in post. Even with just an 8 bit output it will surely benefit from recording on to a higher bit rate codec, maybe with a NanoFlash or Samurai.

As for Red and "Raw" well if a lossy 5:1 compressed codec counts as "Raw" then so be it. It's only really "Raw" in so much as it has not been de-bayered. Which is more "Raw" non de-bayered but compressed or de-bayered but uncompressed (F3)?

Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers?
 

Yes, that is interesting. Especially considering it can now be done at the Scarlet price.

As far as grading and noise, the common use of the simple term "gain" by manufacturers is unfortunate as camera fall well out of spec at the highest settings. I think using ISO terminology when the camera is still in spec, and then Hi1, Hi2 etc. beyond the highest ISO is better as it makes it clearer that the resulting file might not match well.

A high sensitivity camera isn't just capable of shooting in dimmer light, it's capable of more accurately recording at all gain settings. The Epic likely has more read noise at base ISO than the F3/C300. That likely lowers true resolution.