C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

This is a question to those that own or have used a C100 with a Ninja 2. I am looking at getting this combo over a C300 because of the massive price difference but there are a couple of things I read that might make a difference.

Firstly I read that you need to "wake up" the Ninja by waving a hand in front of the lens before it will record if it has been idle for a few minutes. Is this really the case? Having to do this in the environments I shoot in could end up being a major pain in the rear.

Secondly when you set it up to trigger the recording on the Ninja when you hit record on the camera does this get reset if you take out the HDMI cable like you might if you had to put the camera in a bag to carry it between shoots? The video on how to set it up said you just do it once and you never have to do it again but it didn't say it that was provided you never messed with the cables.

Andy

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

When recording 24p onto the Ninja 2, you do need to wave your hand in front of the lens (any movement will do) before you can record to the Ninja. It generally takes 1-5 seconds before you're ready to record, and it has held me up a few times, which is a pain in the rear, although perhaps not quite a major pain in the rear. You have to do this when you boot the device, or if you are switching back out of playback.

After initially setting the Ninja and C100 so that they both record upon pressing the C100 record button, I've never had to set it up again regardless of cables or batteries or anything. Both devices save their settings.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Thinking about buying a Ninja for my C100 to record footage as a part of a 3-week travel documentary. The other option would be to rent a C300.

If I kept the Ninja in a backpack, would there be any issues with triggering it over HDMI? Battery life? Or perhaps its just easier to rent the C300. Works out to be about a $1500 difference. Worth the trouble?

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Is the native codec on the C100 really that big of an issue? I understand it could be problematic on green screen work. I understand that it may be problematic for something that needs true 2K resolution. But if my potential work with that camera will never go anywhere other than a TV screen, or a computer screen, isn't the AVCHD codec going to work just fine? Unless I'm doing green screen work, or aiming for a theatrical release, why is the Ninja even necessary?

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

In my opinion the AVCHD from the C100 is perfectly acceptable. On the internet it wouldn't make too much of a difference at all.

Being broadcast quality and matching (more or less) the outputs of the C300 gives you a great alternative, but it isn't for everybody with a C100.

Personally, I'm hopefully picking up a C100 later in the year and the AVCHD isn't something i'm too worried about.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

I think you're right, Tim...

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

I don't get this. I shot a greenscreen fight scene (as a test) with the 5dmarkIII and had no problems with greenscreen (though it was lit very well). So why are people having problems with the AVCHD?

You can see it here at 1:27 :

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Mikko....apparently, there can be some keying issues with a 4:2:0 codec vs a 4:2:2 codec. I have always "heard" about these keying difficulties, but I have never actually experienced them. However, we don't do very much green screen work, just simple stuff like shooting an interview in front of a green screen, and dropping in a different background. That's pretty basic compared to real Hollywood special effects. But if some people say it truly is an issue in demanding green screen work, I don't have the experience to doubt them.

By the way, I just watched your fight choreography clips. That's good stuff. I'm impressed!

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Mikko, love it.

Even for ever so straightforward talking-head chromakey, so long as you're using modern 'hybrid' keyers, you'll be fine with AVCHD.

As Mikko proves, well-lit chromakey action can work in 4:2:0 - with excellent originals, the right tools and time (!).

As chromakey is about edges, this is where it gets a bit antsy.

AVCHD on the C100 is great, but it begins to sweat a bit with lots and lots of detail over the whole frame, frame by frame. Gets a bit mushy in heavy action, and mushy doesn't work in keying.

And this is where the Ninja kicks in. Or, in my case, a Pix220. For most of the time, you won't need it. But it's surprising when you do. It's your standard Harlem Shuffle thing. Everything's fine for the first 15 seconds, and who needs 422, who needs 10 bit. Then it kicks off and you're thankful you had that Ninja going.

With all respect to Mikko (!!), in corporate or product shot chromakey, you can't hide stuff with a bit of film grain, smoke, particles and motion blur (the salt, sugar and tomato sauce of video). Once you're done with the edges, then you're into de-spill and 420 runs out of puff quite quickly.

But in the last two chromakey talking-head shoots, I've used the AVCHD - easier to archive (which I'm not paid to do FWIW), no difference in quality of key (I checked).

Horses for courses. The trick being in having more than one horse.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Does anyone find the LCD screen on the C100 not very sharp? I know it has the same one as the XF100 and the C300 has the one off the XF300. I was looking at both my XF100 and XF300 today and to my eyes there is quite a bit of difference to the sharpness of the screens. I find the bigger, sharper XF300 one much easier to judge focus on.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

@Andy, I'd agree that C100 owners work harder than others to get focus and exposure (and, for that matter, bloody White Balance) right. I fear that the work of the Canon Marketing Department may be evident here. They know, as well as we do, that the bottom line is the clients' reaction to the image. As soon as I started working with the C100, I wanted a C300 in my life (with all the niceties of its viewfinder, etc). If the C100 had the XF300's viewfinder and codec (isn't that a C300?), wouldn't that cannibalise the XF300 market?

Of course it wouldn't - to us. Just feeling that camera manufacturers may hobble their 'second string' products to ensure it's not a 'wise' choice.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Matt I agree with you there.

For my uses the C300 is kind of the "safe bet" in that it does everything I want in one package. The only problem is that the C100+Ninja 2 bundle is half the price. With the extra £5K I could buy some quality glass, a better tripod, mic etc. But then would I still wish I had gone with the C300?

I've bought many expensive bit of gear from Canon over the years, both stills and video, but the C100 vs C300 debate is the hardest I have had to get my head around to date. It's just that massive price difference really....

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

I hope Business Schools around the world will note their Chutzpah in this product differentiation. I really, really want a C300, but cannot make a business case for it.

The F3 started out at the same price point and is now settling down as an EX3 upgrade at around £7K and S/H at £5K. If the C300 became £6K, everyone would buy it. £7K? Ouch. £8K? Let me talk to my accountant. Beyond that? Nah. Not for corporate. And with the Salford move (HOW MUCH per day?!), probably not so much for Broadcast either.

Thumbs up to Canon for getting this balance right (even more so with the timed price cuts).

For a certain type of shooter, a C100 with Ninja makes more sense than a C300. But, come on lads, we want a C300 and a baby C100 in Defence position. Canon's lined this up. I bet the EVF is a planned issue. I fully accept the AVCHD vs 422/50 - good call, without buggering up the image quality. I fully applaud Canon's giving certain things like WDR, AF with certain lenses and Auto Iris even, to the C100. I hate them for taking out interval record, 50fps and 720p, but that's what they're asking more money for.

It is a 100% excellent cut-and-dried case of product differentiation. "Just because they can" isn't "Just becuase they should" - aaargh! :-D

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Hi Andy.

I was in a similar boat to you a few weeks back. For me, it just boiled down to: do I need this camera for broadcast acquisition? Right now?

Matt has made some wise observations there. Here's my 2p worth to add to his:

When it was launched, my impression of the C300 spec was that it was a quick fix to address the BBC/EBU's rather sniffy/dismissive view on the 5DII, with it's line skipping etc. At the time, lots of APs were sneaking 5DIIs onto shoots and shooting more stuff than they should and there was quite a lot of heat between production and the techno-nazis.

Canon also know that, if a product is "BBC approved", their sales figures will rocket - and the rental houses have obliged by buying C300s by the truckload. Panasonic used to have a guy permanently housed in White City, while they road-mapped AVC Intra, and look at JVC with their recent marketing gift from the BBC with the HM600 series.

The 50 Meg MPEG2 codec scraped the C300 into bare minmum broadcast spec - as far as I can see, it has ONLY sold the way it has because it simply ticks the "broadcast spec" box (and produces that Canon DSLR mojo that everyone was clamouring for.) It certainly didn't otherwise make sense to most cash-pressed solo operators, who were making a decent living with their 5DIIs.

So the way I see it, the only reason one would buy a C300 now is to use it in anger solely for broadcast production and to be happy to write it off within a year or so - after which clients will be wanting the next shiny toy. It's a little long in the tooth now and the 50 Meg codec looks woefully inadequate in the context of the C300 being used as the primary camera in many high-end productions.

The C100 viewfinder issue is more of a sideshow for me at the moment - it would be nice to have a more functional viewfinder, but most of the time I'm using the LCD screen. I had one shot last week where I was scrunched over the LCD in bright sunlight, but I'm otherwise very happy so far with the quality of the C100 LCD. It's early days for me with the C100 - but I'm confident the EVF is not a deal-breaker.

Regarding the advantage of the 300 being "self contained": At the moment, I think the challenge with the Ninja 2 is how you mount it. It just doesn't seem to be a very logical form factor for use with the C100 and, because it has batteries on the back, won't tuck in tight to the camera - which I would want in the heat of production. The BM Shuttle seems more usefully shaped - I just wish they supported standard ProRes - I don't want the higher bitrate HQ codec. Another option might be to run an external recorder in your pocket/around your neck in a pouch - might not sound ideal, but I did that with my Micron radio mic receiver last week after a couple of days because it unbalanced the C100 and became too much faff. I'm sure this whole space in the market will continue to develop.

The difference between the 300 and 100 here in the UK is just a peep over £5K +VAT. That buys you a set of decent glass that will last you years.

Alternatively, wager that £5K to the dwindling group of engineers at the BBC to tell the real world difference in a blind A/B test between the C100's 24 Meg H264 codec and the ancient 50 Meg MPEG2 codec. You could then win yourself another £5K and buy yourself a nice holiday into the bargain... :-)

Don't get me wrong, the minimum specs exist to weed out numpty issues, such as bad image exposure and cack-handed multiple-transcoded workflows. They're a fail-safe as part of the whole transmission chain, which suffers repeated compression/decompression from acquisition to publishing.

But for productions that will generally go out on the web and/or randomly set-up client projectors/monitors etc etc? I don't know why you'd bother with extra cost of the C300 - unless it definitely makes you more money.

Oh, and in case it's not clear, I bought the C100 2 weeks ago for £3275. Plus the 24-105, 70-200/2.8 and a Tokina 11-16, with budget left over to sit in the bank. I also use an ancient Nikkor 50/1.4 and a Contax 28/2.8 and I'm really pleased with the results I've got so far.

Sorry to ramble - there might be something useful in there!

Ben.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Ben what you posted is really useful and you give a very reasoned and wise assessment. As I am kind of new to the video side of things (I'm coming from a stills background) I don't actually need broadcast approved equipment. The projects I have coming up will all be for either DVD/BR or web.
I think the C300 is more of a camera I want but can't justify financially. When I get more set up in my business the C300 will most likely have been succeeded by the next new piece of technology so buying it now seems a bit silly really. It's extra features would certainly be nice but over the C100 I don't think a better LCD, viewfinder, 50mbps codec and interval recording are really worth an extra £5K to me at the moment.

I'm pleased to hear you say using older MF lenses on the C100 works ok. Is that the case with most of the older lenses? I would be very tempted to try some because they are just so much cheaper than Canon L glass. I have a 24-105 and 70-200 f2.0 mkII at the moment so I could do with adding a few large aperture primes.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Good quality older primes are fab. Usual caveats apply:

- Image Stabilisation. For me, this is where OE manufacturers have us by the short and curlies. Any focal length above 35mm or so is susceptible to vibration when hand held. Depending on the kind of vibration and frequency etc, you can sometimes fix it in the edit. If you're always shooting on solid legs in nice weather, you may not need IS at all.

- Lens coatings. Older lenses often have inferior coatings to reduce flare. On the other hand, that's part of their charm.

- Chromatic Aberration - modern camera/lens systems reduce this considerably. But it's possibly more of an issue for stills shooters.

I can't think of any others off the top of my head, but I'm sure others will chip in. The headline issue for me is always IS, as I often shoot handheld - otherwise I'd shoot with nothing but manual/old lenses.

Check out lesser talked about stuff like Yashica (Contax) and Ricoh. I love trawling around used camera shops for the odd gem and lens adapters are cheap and plentiful on ebay and Amazon. If you can afford them, Leica M lenses are stunning, super fast and tiny full-frame lenses made of pure unobtainium. But you're competing with people like my well-paid surgeon brother, who collects them.

I'd also have a play with some modern cheap alternatives, such as Samyang. CVP sell them - so I'm sure they'd let you have a tinker with them before buying.

Ben.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Having recently taken possession of a C100 and have owned an xf305 for a few years, I think Ben hit the nail on the head. When and if I need 4:2:2 (for theatrical or that long anticipated "broadcast quality") I'll likely plug in the Ninja and go to work. In the meantime, all his statements are accurate in my case. I got the C100, and immediately started using all my EF-S and EF lenses. My entire kit of years of glass acquisition is useful, the camera ergonomics are a joy, and there are a few folks around the world that are already showing off the Ninja attached to a C100 for broadcast work. (there is a guy in Italy on Vimeo shooting a cooking show with one I saw recently). He had it mounted, along with the camera, on a glidecam if I remember right.

Don't get me wrong, I love the xf305 4:2:2 look. Superb quality. If I was making a bit more money on my jobs or I thought my clients could tell the difference, I would have bought the C300. But for the difference in price, it's just not worth it. My initial shooting sessions in the last week have shown me that the latitude with the C100 out of the camera, (I've not even had time to load new picture files), is just great. WideDR and EOS standard are working for now, but I assume I'll do BBC and others soon.

I assume you guys have seen this...the last half is a demo of the Ninja 2 on the C100 and shows a reasonable mounting option.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Me again....

Does anyone have experience of the Canon 24-105 and the 17-55? I find the IS on the 24-105 to be very noticeable in the audio of any clips recorded with it and wondered if the 17-55 is any quieter. The IS on the 24-105 is really nice and I can get very acceptable handheld shots with it on a DSLR, it's just the noise that is an issue.


@ Al - The video from Stefan is the one along with the comments on this thread that made my mind up to get a C100 rather than C300.
I'm hoping to order it today or tomorrow.

@ Ben - Where did you order your C1oo from as your price sounds really good? The cheapest I have found at the moment is Proactive. A pity Jigsaw24 are a bit more expensive as they are about 3 miles from me.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Andy, I bought it from Proactive. I think I may have said 3275, but just checked and it was 3295 + VAT.

They've notched the price back up by £100, but you can always ask them to match what I paid on the 12th April.

Ben.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Wow! I'm thankful for the world I live and work in. I shoot and produce a weekly gardening feature for broadcast. It is also distributed on the web. It is presently shot and posted on a XDCAM HD 35mbs 4:2:0 codec. A couple of stations air the feature in this native codec, and a few more take delivery of the features in a MPEG2 15 mb/s. codec. No one complains. For my product and workflow, the c100 AVCHD codec is going to work just fine, even for broadcast. That's why I asked why the Ninja 2 was even necessary. I loved Ben's line about how many engineers could even tell the difference in the 24 mb AVCHD codec and the 50 mb MPEG codec. I would wager that very few could consistently pick correctly.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Tim, it's my understanding, after doing extensive research when I started my current video project for a Tribe here in the Pacific NW, that many cable channels and local channels may not care, if the content and execution (meaning your professionalism) is good. As you step up to producing for national and international outlets, its seems you risk the possibilty of being rejected (or possibly forced) to shoot 4:2:2. Some outlets allow part of a doc to be shot in 4:2:0 (or less than 'broadcast quality'). Others on this board with more experience can chime in and correct me. But that was my takeaway. I have shot the current, unique tribal project in 4:2:2 because I was (and am) not wanting to limit it's possible distribution if I do a great job, as it's very unique footage. So I could not risk it. But for the bulk of my projects, they are very web oriented, and as such, no one knows the difference and no one asks. They just want their ideas turned into professional looking video. They want it as inexpensive as possible, but understand that it's not free (G). They want to deal with someone who is also professional and understands contracts, billing cycles and delivers on time. That's the usual situation, I think for most of us.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

I got my C100 + Ninja 2 today. The batteries are still charging so I've not used it at all yet.

I have a bit of a problem with the Ninja though. I can't get the HDD caddy out of the unit. I read the pdf manual that says it's a bit stiff but I've been pulling as hard as I dare and it won't budge! The little black switch next to the power button doesn't really seem to move much when push up to unlock the caddy.

Anyone else's caddies this stiff?

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

I just received the Ninja 2 and I am disappointed with how dark the image is. Now....I already own a Samurai for use with my XLh1 and it was dark already. But this is even darker....even at the brightest settings. It is "really dark"!! Anyone else noticing this? Again....I thought I knew what to expect but this is far darker than the Samurai. The Samurai was barely usable to judge focus sometimes....I cannot imagine this!

Anyone........

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Great Caesars Ghost! Now my caddie is stuck and I cannot get it out! Did you ever figure this out?

Nevermind! I got it! What a pain this is gonna be when it's mounted on my camera! Ugh! The locking mechanism on my Samurai was basically broken so the drives came out easily. The casing itself provided enough friction to hold the drives in place.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Mine was hard to remove when I first got it. Its as if the release switch doesn't do anything. But 2 weeks later it comes out a lot easier. So don't panic.

Drew

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

No mine isn't dark at all. Brightness is set at about 75%.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Really? Mine is at maximum brightness and it is at least 3-4 stops lighter than the camera LCD. I cannot increase it anymore. Is your model the original Ninja2 or one of the ones from the new kit? I may have to send this back if this isn't normal. Maybe I'll post some footage of the screen compared to the Samurai or compare to the C100 LCD. I am talking scenes I tested in my office where it was clearly visible in the LCD but the Ninja was basically black. Then when I hit the focus enhance features they show up all over what appears o be invisible objects.....so I believe this is simply a screen backlight issue. The information is being recorded but the screen is so dark as to not see moderately lit items.

Hmmm........

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Mine is a new Ninja 2 purchase 2 weeks ago. What you have described doesn't sound right. You've maybe got a lemon. Talk to the experts on the forum at Atomos.com or return it to the store.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Mine was dark compared to the C100 LCD but not as dark as what you describe. Mine also had a very pronounced red tint to the screen and recorded clips compared to the C100 native clips, especially under normal room lights.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Not to totally change subject but related to the c100/c300 debate: What're your guys thoughts on the f5? From what little I've seen so far the f5 makes the c300 a really hard sell..

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Here is how bad it is. I have done a dozen other tests and it just plain is too dark. In images that are bright it even appears the contrast is too high and the image posterizes. Hope I can get some help. I have a shoot mid week and this was the last one I could find in stock anywhere. Ugh!

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

There's definitely something not right about your Ninja. Here is a photo of mine:

http://www.pixol.co/wp-content/uploa..._ninja2-01.jpg

As you can see the ninja screen is bright snd clear. Sorry you can't see the C100 LCD but I can tell you there isn't all that much difference.

Silly question but have you tried a different hdmi cable?

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

I'm not sure you are going to get much help on a Canon C series forum. ;)

The only input I can give is comparing the C100 to the Fs100/700 and I'd take the image produced by the Canon any day. But that's purely subjective and everyone will see it differently.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

It cannot be the HDMI cable as I have tested the caddies from both my Samurai and my Ninja2 in both. In other words, footage I shot last week at a dance recital on my Samurai, looks way too dark on the Ninja2. So to be clear, it affects prerecorded images also, which leads me to believe that it is something to do with the screen itself, or possibly the image processor just before the screen. I believe the footage is fine....it's simply the display. Either way it is un acceptable. I need to get another one and try it.

I will keep you posted. I did a hardware reset and flashed back to the previous bios and the problem still exists. Again, this is not a C100 issue at all since I have rigged up a Frankenstein rig with HDMI to SDI converter and the footage out of the C100 looks fine on the Samurai.

Thanks. What a frustrating weekend. Was so excited to get this on Friday!

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Hopefully Chris will shift these into a new thread, but I'll bite - or at least nibble.

F5: new awesome battery system still really expensive to buy into (and you don't even get a mains supply), you still need to choose an EVF in addition to the F5, you need to buy into SxS Pro cards (I don't think the orange SxS1s will do) and the lens mount is by default (via adaptor) PL.

C300: does what it says on the tin, re-uses your 5dMk2 CF cards, re-purposes your Canon EOS glass, and as such is pretty much ready to use out of the box.

Not dissing the F5 - lovely camera. It will be Front and Centre for certain types of cameraman. For others, the C300 has a lasting charm. There's enough differentiation on price to show who will be interested in the F5 (as in 'one down from Epic, one up from Scarlet' maybe).

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Yeah it's frustrating alright. The ninja is an excellent price of kit. I hope you can get it replaced fairly quickly.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Has anyone tried the new Zacuto view finder for the c100? I am really disappointed with the screen.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

Why dont you like the screen? I was impressed with mine.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

I basically know exactly what it can do since I have had the samurai for a year and a half with no problems. I thought the samurai screen was a little dark and not a good judge of lighting or color but could be used for framing and focus assisting when needed. The ninja I have is hopeless for anything viewing wise. Sometimes it is so dark I cannot even see anything! Can't wait to call about this in the morning. My only concern is that a lot of online vendors seem to be out of stock with this.....so I hope I can get a replacement immediately!

Thanks all.

Re: C100 + Ninja 2 question
 

I have new one ordered so we will see when it comes in. In the meantime, anybody know of a good 1/4" 20 mount that I can use to mount the Ninja to the 1/4" 20 hole on the back of the handle? I only have a cold shoe mount version and I do not want the Ninja so far towards the front of the handle.

Thanks. Also, the smaller the better. I want to keep the ninja tucked in close to the handle if possible.