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January 22nd, 2010, 06:56 AM | #1 |
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DNxHD coded stuttering in CS4
Hey guys,
I cannot for the life of me figure out a decent workflow for the 7D.... I've read tons and tons of posts and blogs regarding this issue and everyone has got a differing solution. Proxies, Cineform, TMpeg, DNxHD...list goes on... I wanted to originally do proxy files. Convert the original .mov's into .f4v files and edit, then re-link. But it seems that premiere does not like to link different file types. Meaning that if I create a A.f4v, B.f4v, and C.f4v, Premiere doesn't automatically link everything if I just point to A.mov...I have to manually do A.mov, B.mov, and C.mov. Not fun. Can someone confirm this or am I being an idiot? Failing at that, I've moved on to the Mpeg Stream/DNxHD method of working. No proxies, just an intermediate which I can then do a final export from. Problem here is that every .mov that I make using DNxHD stutters like hell in Premiere CS4. Very similar to the original files. My computer is decent enough, Q9550 is plenty powerful. I've worked with more on less so I can't say it's my comp. Any ideas? Sorry for the length, but I'm about to just give up here..hope someone can help me out! PS: DNxHD files are HUGE...100mb file converts to a 600mb DNxHD!! Gig eaters... |
January 22nd, 2010, 08:22 AM | #2 |
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my 2cents - i'm big proponent of cineform. give their Neoscene a try/trial. its cheap, 99$ from videoguys, and you can get decent preview frame rates with your cpu, files are big but NOT huge!
And its made for 7d/5d footage so it transcodes fairly quick! And the files are quite robust when colour correcting! damn, cineform should pay me!!!
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January 22nd, 2010, 10:05 AM | #3 | |||
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So download a trial version of NeoScene convert your files, and you should be good to go.
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January 22nd, 2010, 02:19 PM | #4 |
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Cineform is a great product.
It's unfortunate pc's don't do a better job dealing with MOV files. All the good stuff is on MOV. |
January 22nd, 2010, 10:41 PM | #5 |
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Yes, I should also get paid by Cineform :), It's been great editing footage transcoded with it.
By the way, don't forget to update your 7D's firmware! Mauricio
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January 23rd, 2010, 01:07 AM | #6 | |
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The problem lies in the NLE makers who don't write their own code to handle .MOV files. Instead they rely on an external call to quicktime from inside the NLE to handle it. It's that round trip that makes it such a dog on the timeline.
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January 23rd, 2010, 04:01 AM | #7 |
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I've worked with HD material before on a much less capable machine, not to mention editing in CS3. Then again, those were HV20 files changed from .m2t to .mov, perhaps not all HD is equal, though 1920x1080 is a big frame regardless. So I'm a bit suprised by the stuttering myself.
I haven't had much problems editing with 1920x1080 .mov files on Premiere in the past, they usually come along nicely and play smoothly, even HD material. For some reason, though, the DNxHD footage I am creating with Mpeg stream lags just as badly as the original. I'd really like to edit using .avi files, though I cannot find an adequete codec to do so. Everyone here seems to advocate the Cineform intermediate, but there has to be a free .avi codec which is sufficient, no? (I know $99 is relatively cheap, but a budget is a budget. It is in the struggle where the art resides...) Is there anyway to simply change the wrapper of the file without having it go through another compression round? And I know the outragous file sizes that can come from HD or even SD material, but a 6x inflation of file size after a DNxHD run? That's a bit extreme. That means my 20 second, 100mb native 7d footage translates to a 20 second 600mb DNxHD clip. I don't see the logic there, isn't DNxHD a intermediate compressive codec? I'd imagine h.264 being the bloated files in this case... |
January 23rd, 2010, 05:03 AM | #8 | |||||
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See that HDMI port on your consumer camcorder? That port delivers uncompressed HD. It's 1500 Mbps. That is what professionals had to deal with. That is why pro machines have RAID arrays, fast processors, and hot video cards. That's about 190 Megabytes per second. 12 GB per minute, or 720GB per hour. So, the top bitrate in DNxHD is 220Mbps for 60i and 175Mbps for 24p. For professionals working on professional level hardware, going from 1500Mbps to 175 and keeping the video visually lossless was seen as a master stroke. And it still is. That is a compression of about 8:1 with no visible loss. The problem came when home videographers with their insanely compressed, lossy video, started trying to play in the HD big leagues. Consumer camcorders compress that 1500Mbps signal down to 17Mbps (AVCHD lite), 24Mbps (AVCHD full spec) or 40/48 Mbps on the 5D/7D respectively. The Sony EX1 is recording at 35Mbps. When that is your "normal", then going to a professional intermediate file seems "extreme" I guess. DnxHD wasn't built for you. It was built for people trying to handle material that came from 35mm film. The DNxHD proxy format, meaning the format they use for easy and fast cutting is at 35Mbps. Twice the bitrate of AVCHD lite. You know what? In Avid it cuts like butter. I can cut 5-10 streams of it with ease. Over in Final Cut, prior to the latest release, ProRes HQ (220Mbps) and ProRes (145) were the standards. And Pro level Macs cut them like butter. So here's the simple fact. If you want to play in the pro HD game, open your wallet and buy the required tools. That means a real PC, good codecs, fast drives, a solid video card and whatever else is required. You can't go racing professionally with a grocery getter, you can't play pro golf with $50 clubs, and you can't edit pro level video with substandard gear either. Here's a pro level example for you. Avatar was cut on Avid. They started that edit in 2007. That means they were likely using Core2Duo or at best Core2quad technology. 24 Tracks of HD video and Audio, in that very same DNxHD codec you're struggling with. Total movie size was ~48 Terabytes. Hit the spacebar, and it all just plays...over the network. Not even off local drives. A bargain PC suitable for pro editing should cost about $3500 these days, on the top end about $9k. Before software. $100 for Cineform is paid for before the coffee gets cold...
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January 23rd, 2010, 05:21 PM | #9 | |
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I also tried SonyYUV 10 and 8 bit. That crashed my Sony Vegas software. The first codec that's ever done that, and it's Sony. It completely blew up Vegas. |
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January 23rd, 2010, 08:24 PM | #10 | |
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The SonyYUV is an odd bird. I tried it a couple of times successfully with VegasPro 9, but found better solutions. Cineform is still the best game in town for quality and speed. I had hoped that the Mogran Multimedia MJ2K codec would be a solution since it uses the same underlying codec as Cineform, but it quite a bit cheaper. Vegas gave nothing but red frames, but Virtualdub liked it, as did Avid. So I was forced to just use it for archival purposes.
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January 23rd, 2010, 11:10 PM | #11 |
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I agree. I like DnX but virtual dub doesn't. Cineform is only $99, but, thing is, for some reason it hurts so bad to pay $99 for a codec! It's almost a tease, HQ is great and FREE, CF used to be free w/Vegas, but now? I know I'm not alone here, the sentiment is even expressed in this thread. We can spend $1200 for a lens we will hardly use, but $99 for a codec we'd use every single second we're in our NLE? Forget it!
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January 24th, 2010, 02:47 AM | #12 | |
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There are a lot of things that used to be bundled with Vegas. Boris Graffiti, numerous other tools, Cineform was only included up to the HDV level, and for much the same reason as it's needed now for AVCHD. Computers of the time simply couldn't handle the format. And it was a LOT closer to DV with the same bit rate just a larger frame. AVCHD is a different beast entirely. Even the hottest machines struggle with more than one stream and a few effects. A single stream of AVCHD plays seamlessly for me. But I cannot get smooth playback on 5D footage.
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January 24th, 2010, 04:58 AM | #13 |
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Not at all, these are extraordinary economic times, the question could easily be do I live with DnX and get my kids a swine flu vaccination or buy Cineform? It is indeed a cost benefit analysis, just not necessarily the binary you suggest.
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January 24th, 2010, 07:08 AM | #14 |
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Thanks for the information guys, very helpful. :)
Perrone: I have worked with HDV material on an first generation AMD dual core from 2005 with only 2 gigs of RAM. No problems on that. The .mov files I created from the original .m2t were very smooth and nice. Granted, as you have explained, that material has about half the bitrate of the 7d files, but then again my current machine is about 4x as powerful as my previous. It is far from a "consumer" spec PC, so I very much doubt my computer is at fault here. I'm more compelled to blame Windows 7, which, in retrospect, should have never upgraded to... Bruce: I very much agree with you, budgets account for many different factors and for myself, the $99 cost for a codec just isn't justified right now. Perahps in the future, but as it stands not so much. The codec just makes my life easier while editing, it doesn't increase the quality of production or the piece of work. I don't doubt the power of cineform, but I'm just looking for free alternatives. As Perrone has suggested, I will attempt Lagarith and some other .avi codecs. Also one question for you guys, what version of windows are you running (32 or 64 bit)? and how much RAM do you guys have? |
January 24th, 2010, 10:20 AM | #15 | |
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Win7 is not your problem.
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