I already own a 5DII but have been tempted to buy a 7D for the 24/25fps 720p50 plus the longer reach of the crop sensor turning my 200mm into a 300mm equivalent. Looking at the specs on this camera for video it looks like I was wise not to jump in immediately & buy a 7D as it appears to do all I want at half the price.

Really excited about the full features of this camera at it's price point!! Is there still the 12 min. recording limitation with this?? will this limitation be lifted when exFAT compact flash cards are introduced??

Yes and no. Yes the recording time limit is the same, and no, the limit will not be lifted because it does not relate to exFAT compact flash cards or any other card.

LiveView, which is fed by the sensor, isn't going to care much about what's going on in the viewfinder optical path. I would be shocked if LiveView wasn't 100%.

If someone knows/has seen where it says different, I am more than willing to be proved wrong, even if the news is bad.

Looking at the sample video YouTube - Canon EOS 550D sample video can someone comment on the quality versus the Panasonic GH1? There's quite a lot of GH1 footage out there and I've seen a few instances where the codec breaks down, but I'm not sure how often that's going to be an issue in my footage. My amateur impression is the Canon footage is lacking somehow. One clip isn't much to go on, of course.

The T2i definitely has the advantage in terms of price over the GH1, but the GH1 does autofocus in video mode and, according to the manual, can record up to 4 hours of full-HD video (using a 32GB card and DC power supply). GH1 also has the advantage of smaller size (but also the "disadvantage" of smaller image sensor).

I currently use HDV - a Sony HC1 and a Canon HV30. The Canon I bought with the hopes of exploiting the 24p mode, but the camera seems to have quickly developed a problem with glitches while recording to tape that I don't use it much. The Sony has been more reliable over the years, but it's had it share of dropouts, too, and I'm tired of them. So I'm hoping recording to memory card will fix that particular issue. Also, my editors are Pinnacle Studio 11, Avid Liquid 7, and Edius Neo, if it matters.

So, $900 for the Canon, or $1200 for the GH1?

Hey Paul till these cameras get into peoples hands there is no way to judge the quality at all. There are so many things that is going wrong with the clip posted on youtube. First off the producer of the video probably had the camera in Auto the whole time filming it. It was probably shot with a kit lens and if it was shot in Auto as I believe that means that the lens is at f8-f16 with out a ND filter. Diffraction will affect the perceived sharpness. The reason for beautiful perceived sharp 5D/7D/1D video out there is because people know how to use it. This video is just to show off the camera. On top of all that The video is compressed by youtube. All people can do is wait for the camera to hit the streets and have people who are more aware of how to use the camera start to post footage....If I were in your shoes these cameras will slowly be getting into the hands of people the end of the month in EU so if you can wait I'd wait a bit more before making a decision. Take Care

I agree with your post and in particular wonder about your first statement.

We've seen what has happened to the photography market in, say the past 5 years. DSLRs have become fairly reasonable and every body and their brother it seems is starting a photography company. I live in town of about 60,000 people and I search around online every so often (google and craigslist) and find entirely new people offering photo services every few weeks.

I have yet to see the sudden explosion of video companies out there, but I'm guessing that as these DSLRs become cheaper and feature laden, there will probably be a similar effect in the video world.

Either way, from a consumer standpoint having a camera that does both high quality photos and videos at a very economical price is a very attractive thing. I mean, I love being able to carry around my almost 1-year old Nikon D90 and take video of my 18-mo old son when the occassion arises. It's nice not having to lug around a video camera too.

This new Rebel has a very impressive feature set. It'll be interesting to see what other updates Canon makes to their DSLR line-up.

Hi Monday and thanks for the quick reply.

Your point about the youtube compression is well taken - I wondered the same thing when watching.

About the overall lack of wow in the Canon footage - what concerns me is that I'm under the impression this footage comes from Canon (Europe) and I would expect that because it's supposed to showcase the new camera it would be shot under the most ideal conditions. It doesn't appear to have been shot by someone like me playing around, though I'll be more than happy to accept your suggestion (and why not, my expectations are often far removed from reality, LOL).

I had hoped there would be more footage available - like the GH1 was launched in Japan and we had quite a bit of footage prior to the US launch, but in checking Youtube it doesn't look like the Canon was done the same way.

The good news is that I've got a bit of time before I actually buy.

Thanks again.

Kyle,

Affordable HV series cams have been around for awhile and if used properly can produce some great images. These are far easier for a prosumer to use than a dSLR. To shoot even reasonably 'pro' looking video with these you need at least a decent tripod, or stability rig, decent lenses, and a pro-level mic.

I think the impact of these cams (T2i) may influence the amateur 'film-maker' more than the guy who says 'this is what I was waiting for' to start a video production company.

Remember that dSLR replaced film - that was a startling and dynamic revolution that changed photography forever. Amateur (read: new photogs) who shoot weddings for cheap will shoot 1,000 to 2,500 stills at a wedding! And with Photoshop and plug-ins becoming do-able with cheap computer processing available, it's no wonder that every 4th person you meet is a wedding photographer.

Even a blind dog finds a bone once in awhile.

I'm not so sure, Kyle. Seems to me it takes a whole lot more to make good vids than good pics. Audio for example, most people here use an external sound recorder like the zoom. Think about the rig, the focus monitor... all that plus the whole postproduction, editing it into a nice clip, choosing the right music, exporting it DVD or internet and all... it's not only pressing the shutter button and presto! (I don't underestimate however the professional photographers who spend hours on lights, composition, and polishing the shot, but I think a good video takes a LOT more work all in all).

I can imagine it can be difficult to tell sometimes if a photograph is taken by a professional photographer or just a (serious) amateur with a DSLR.

I know many people (clients) percieve a video which stands out from the ordinary (like the 7D footage's WOW-factor) as professional looking, simply because there always was a big difference between home video an professional's footage, just in footage quality. But even if the amateur's source footage becomes 7D-quality, that still doesn't make a professional video. Using lots of cheesy transitions, unstable shots, simple pre-designed music... nah, if you're willing to spend lots of money on good lenses, audio equipment, focus monitors, rigs&rails, then you must be serious about the editing process too...

(However, sometimes I see what paid videographers in my country produce and how much they charge for it and I think to myself... unbelievable that people pay that much for pure rubbish imho)

So bottomline: I agree that the number of videographers getting great 'footage' will increase, and that many will also try to get professional jobs, but still I think the difference between the (semi-)professional and the amateur in the end will be big enough for serious clients.

As far as the 12 min recording limit, does that mean no continuous shot can be longer than 12 min or the card can't hold more than 12 min of video?

So as far as video performance, it is on par with the 7D? Does it still have the slight aliasing issues the 7D has or have those been improved in the video?

There will be a specific section for it once it starts shipping. Meanwhile, I have merged the thread you started in our 7D forum into our existing T2i discussion topic, here under the Industry News forum.

Please refer to the press release (the first post in this thread), the part near the bottom about availability which states that U.S. dealers will receive this camera in March. Since it isn't shipping yet, nobody has shot anything with it (outside of a few lucky pre-release sample testers).

Please review this discussion thread in its entirety as it answers most of your questions and provides links to a few samples.

It has not started shipping yet. It was just announced yesterday. We need to get you into the habit of regularly reading the DV Info Net news forum!

It is the same size sensor (APS-C) as the 7D, so yes, the Depth of Field results will be exactly the same.

It means that no continuous shot can be longer than 12 minutes. If a card is large enough, it can hold several 12-minute clips. For example, a 16GB card could contain four 12-minutes clips (at 4GB per clip).

It should be the same as the 7D. We'll know more once the camera actually starts shipping, as people will report their experiences with it once these cameras become available. Hope this helps,

It is an import taxation limit for normal Stills DSLR cameras which states that it will be raised to a higher taxation band if it is able to record more than 30-minutes at a time (which equates to all DSLRs providing maximum 30-mins of SD recording, or only around 12-mins max in higher HD mode).
Cards already allow longer sequences than 12-mins of HD video and most modern hybrid DSLR cameras are able to if not 'cobbled' during production.

Why do you think so? As a longtime stills photographer, since when has the Rebel series ever approached the xxD series in quality, let alone the 7D or 5D?

At a minimum I would expect more noise at equivalent ISOs, but I guess we'll find out soon enough...

Video quality is far lower than full resolution of a single stills image; plus that fact that many DSLR cameras with approximately equal image quality vary wildly in price mainly due to build quality and extra weather sealing (which means higher production costs).

I've had several photographs published in two books (both available nationwide at any of the large bookstore chains) taken with a lowly Rebel XT. There's nothing about a Rebel that inhibits the native image quality relative to the 7D or xxD series EOS bodies; the differences are first and foremost in the body construction -- polycarbonate on the Rebel, alloy on the EOS -- and frame rate, ISO sensitivity, AF speed and so on. In fact, the APS-C sensor in the T2i is newer than the one on the 7D!

Take any Rebel and any of its EOS contemporaries that are also APS-C, put them in broad daylight with ISO locked at 100, same settings and most importantly the same lenses, and I challenge you to discern which image came from which. Video would be an even more difficult identification test.

The Rebel is cheap because it's plastic, that's all. There's nothing wrong with the images it can make.

It's already been pointed out here that the differences in feature sets between the Rebel and other EOS models lie primarily in their photographic capabilities (burst rate, AF speed, sensitivity, etc.), but the video capability is pretty much equal across the line-up (or at least, it will be when the 5D Mk. II gets its firmware update).

Chris how would you rate the kit lens ( EF S 18-55)?

Hmm. Well, that kit lens is better than nothing I suppose, and it's much
better than its old non-IS predecessor . But in my opinion you really should
save the $100, buy the body only, and then get the lens you want.

From what i understand this is an EU only regulation. Im pretty sure the 4GB limit (being normally around 12 mins) is purely due to FAT32 limitations so am very interested to see if this will mean an end of the limit with these new cards.

SDXC cards don't have the 4GB FAT32 file limit
 

"The EOS 500D sports an SD memory card slot and in addition to the now ubiquitous SD and SDHC cards, it's one of a new generation of cameras to support the new SDXC standard that promises increased speed and capacities up to 2TB. "
Canon EOS 550D / Digital Rebel T2i Hands-on Preview: 5. Body & Design: Digital Photography Review

"Movie mode

Movies are recorded in .mov (Quicktime) format using H.264 codec for video and PCM for audio. The maximum duration is 29m 59sec, maximum file size is 4GB."
Canon EOS 550D / Digital Rebel T2i Hands-on Preview: 7. Operation & Controls: Digital Photography Review

"Microsoft has announced a new licensing program for its Extended File Allocation Table (exFAT) technology. For certain device categories, such as cameras, camcorders, and digital photo frames, the software giant is charging a flat $300,000 license fee, while companies that want to use the format in devices such as phones, PCs, and networks will have to pay a volume-based license fee.

The company notes that the exFAT technology is already being adopted by partners in the industry; Redmond has entered into exFAT licensing agreements with several leading companies including Sony, Canon, and Sanyo. Furthermore, SanDisk, as a member of the SD Association and the Memory Stick standard, has endorsed the adoption of the exFAT file system for use in the new extra capacity storage media. The SD Association says it chose the exFAT file system for the SDXC memory card specification because it supports large volumes, large files, and better contiguous on-disk layout. File saving on SDXC cards can reach the full 300MBps speed thanks to exFAT's modern storage allocation techniques.

Microsoft markets exFAT as the modern version of its predecessor, the FAT system, as it can handle larger files on flash memory devices for use of audiovisual media (Microsoft plans to continue to license the older FAT format alongside exFAT). The latest generation of the exFAT file system allows significantly larger files to be stored on a broad range of consumer electronic devices (support for 256TB compared to FAT's 32GB), and improves the speed at which they can be accessed. Microsoft says the file system can handle more than 4,000 RAW images, 100 HD movies, or 60 hours of HD recording in a single directory, and thus calls exFAT an "ideal file system for delivering fast and reliable use of audio and video files." The technology has already been available for some time in Vista SP1 and later, as well as Windows 7, but now the software giant is licensing it broadly to the industry. "

http://arstechnica.com/...009/12/mic...ile-system.ars

"Because Windows Vista and 7 both support exFAT, the SDXC file system, the SD Association claims users should soon receive the SDXC device driver from Microsoft. The SD Association has not said when other operating systems, including any version of Mac OS X, will receive SDXC drivers."

SDXC Will Replace SDHC, Offer Up to 2 Terabytes of Data Storage

The Rebel Ti/500D had cleaner high ISO's than the 50D. That was well known.

No, it's not a fat32 limitation, it's a choice by Canon, Nikon, Pentax etc, and yes, it _is_ due to the EU regulation. Canon/Nikon/Pentax is not releasing a EU only camera, so we're all stuck with the same limitation.

This has been discussed _many_ times.

I'll be watching this, my GL2 and a few dollars could go a long way.

If only it weren't for the time limit on it.

Is this codec similar to the new one Canon just announced? I'm wondering about what sort of computer horsepower would be needed to edit 720p. I've got a machine capable of HDV, but wouldn't go anywhere near AVCHD.

Greg

No. This is the same codec used in all HD-capable Canon D-SLRs since the EOS 5D Mk. II first came out.

The one that was announced is intended for a pro video camcorder, a tapeless replacement of the Canon XH series.

That's what I had guessed. I have some research ahead of me as to what editing that entails.

I'll see if I can get a hold of a little 7D footage from a buddy of mine and how my machine handles it.

Greg

FYI, I have a T1i and just tested transforming the mov files with Cineform into avi files and imported into Premiere CS4. Note that I was using 720p30, as the T1i's 1080p20 is useless! It edits just fine so I don't think you'll have a problem, depending on your workflow. I'm not done testing the Cineform Neoscene / NeoHD just yet. But the T2i files are supposedly just the same. (Hope this helps!)

having one processor vs. two.
any effect on video?
Or is it both video and stills?

JJ

I tested on a Dell Precision laptop with a Centrino dual core processor, 4GB ram and running Windows 7 enterprise. The process of importing the files from the built-in SD card onto an external RAID then Cineform conforming of about 30 minutes of video took about 15 minutes. (I didn't time it exactly, but it was still faster than real time, which is a good thing in my book!)

Remember that the 5D mkII only has one processor... And that certainly doesn't make a difference to the video... No idea about the stills.

For the EU the customs duty on a camcorder is 4.9% while it is 0% for a stills camera. Although this difference in duty is often quoted as the reason for the limitation I seriously doubt that a Japanese company will make a design decision based on the fact that a particular model will cost the consumer 4.9% more in Europe than otherwise.

Specific European models of DV camcorders without Firewire input were produced because otherwise they were classed as VCRs with an import duty of 14.9%. It would be simple enough if Canon thought it necessary to produce a different firmware version for Europe that avoided the camcorder classification & extra 40 pounds 45 Euros on the price but the extra is so small as not to be worth considering.

As I have pointed out elsewhere the extra EU import duty is only 4.9% on a camcorder versus a stills camera i.e. 945 Euros instead of 900 Euros for the 550D. As a point of comparison in Europe sales tax (VAT/TVA) is around 20% in addition.

In the past the Japanese camera companies have produced specific European model DV camcorders so even if they thought the extra 45 Euros on consumer prices were significant they could easily develop specific firmware for the European market that kept under the 30 minute record time that classes a device as a camcorder.

i've also seen it discussed many times (i'm basing my 'expertise' on bits and pieces i see discussed here at dvinfo and other places!) but i've never seen it discussed with this being given as the reason for the 5d/7d recording limits, are you sure youre not mixing it up with the GH1?

IIRC, there are three stages of limit: the 4GB limit, the overheating limit, and then the final cap at 29 minutes.

The first one, for docco/interviews at least, requires a 'weather eye' and a quick 'stop-start' when convenient, assuming scratch audio on-camera, one long take on the audio recorder, and something like PluralEyes.

The second one is odd, unpredictable, and why some people have at least a couple of bodies for these circumstances. I really hope this will be less of an issue with the 550/T2i.

The third and final one is the EU thing and just the sort of limit that's going to be hacked by some enterprising soul (like region blocks and FireWire IO).

I was debating between the 7D and 5D and now I'm getting T2i. I own the 5D (non Mark II purchased late in it's cycle) and love the full frame stills but like everyone else want the video feature of the current dslr's. The firmwear update for the current 5D kept me from pulling the trigger and I'm glad I did. For the price of the T2i I can keep my 5D and wait until the 5D mark whatever comes out.

For those that are interested B&H has the camera on it's site and you can use their email notification system to alert you when it's in.

Canon | Canon EOS Rebel T2i Digital SLR (Body Only) | B&H Photo

I think the reason it's not often mentioned is that the 12 minute limit in HD is due to the file limit. The 29 minute, 59 second in SD is due to the taxes on camcorders...but I don't think many people around here record in SD, so whenever the time limit comes up, it's discussed in relation to the file size limit.

It'd be great if the T2i went up to 29:59 in HD, but though people have talked about the SDXC cards allowing that, the specs on a couple of sites for the T2i (i.e. dpreview.com) specifically say that movies are limited to 4GB. My pessimistic nature makes me think Canon would have specifically said something about "almost unlimited file size of movie length with SDXC cards" if the camera supported that.

This is an interesting decision. Many people here, having sat on the fence for so long, will probably go for a T2i/550.

Is it down to cost?

If it's possible to leave aside the cost difference... If you're looking at the video side only, does the extra durability swing you to the 7D, or the SDHC cards swing you back to the T2i/550?

And if we go 550, can we wait for the likes of M2 and Zacuto to make new viewfinders? (I find it kind of silly that, because I have a deadline of April but I also have 16 SDHC cards, I want to go 550 but may have to go 7D simply because there's a viewfinder available for it.)

Would you prefer a 7D if budget allows? Why?

Matt,

For the price you could buy the T2i and a really nice lens for less than the price of the 7D alone. (Heaven knows I don't need any more lenses, but I'm sure that would sway some people)

Good luck or bad, it seems whenever I purchase something, immediately following the next latest and greatest shows up. It happened when I purchased my 5D and again when last year I bought the A1s. Now that I think about it, it's been happening since I purchased my first Brownie in 1966.

So this time I'm getting this right out of the gate and this will keep me happy until the 5D mark whatever comes out, that's what I really want. I'll keep my 5D for stills and use the T2i for video in conjunction with the A1s and hv20.

Now that I know which way I going with this camera, I can start worrying about the A1s and it's replacement. Whenever I think about that, I find myself in a cold sweat clutching boxes and boxes of tapes, not sure if there is any future in solid state recording.....:)

I agree. I'd love Full Frame for wide angle. 5DM2 video is way behind the development/feature curve. A T2i and my Trusty old 30D will work for me until the 5DM3 ships. The T2i price is just too good to ignore. Competition is great, with the other SLR players and Red all crowding this market Canon is shipping some great products at amazing prices.

Double the difference for a 7D, 3x or 4x the difference for the 5Dm2 and on up, now it's hundreds of euros. Where do you start and stop? Then there's the issue of gray market cameras and the resulting warranty issues.

The fact is, Canon also does the same on even cheaper digicams, use the arbitrary 4gb limit. There's no file limit problem on even the cheapest Canon HD and flash based camcorders, they simply create another file, my HF100 actually does it at the 1gig mark. The fat32 4gig file limitation has been solved a long time ago, it's _not_ a technical limitation that requires exFAT or some other new technology. Canon and others are simply choosing to let 4gigs be a limitation.

Do we really think that something so simple as a 4gig file limitation is what is preventing a multi-billion dollar corporation like Canon from breaking the "12 min's in HD" limitation?

Do I also think that the EU tax happens to be a convenient excuse to cripple the T2i, 7D, 5Dm2, 1Dm4 etc? Yes. All of these cameras are still much cheaper than the cheapest interchangeable lens HD camcorder.

best footage yet
 

So, here's a little something for you all to chew on... Best footage test yet from this camera...

Sample Movie

Comes from this page:

Canon: EOS 550D / EOS REBEL T2i - Sample Images & Movies

Let the fray continue!