Slow mo at 720 60p with 7D?

[Jon Fairhurst]

If you start with 59.94, then a speed of 0.4 will give you 23.976.

[Liam Hall]

Originally Posted by Ethan Lane

you can do it in final cut that way too, it's just better with cinema tools because you can do 23.976

In FCP if you change the speed setting it is just a regular video slow-mo and you're not using the additional captured frames. The only way to do it is to use cinema tools to change the playback frame rate.

[Mike Calla]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

If you start with 59.94, then a speed of 0.4 will give you 23.976.

Ohhhhhh, i'm an idiot, Thanks John - been out of the NTSC world for quite some time, completely forgot about actual frame rates while i was trying to figure this out!

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Liam Hall

In FCP if you change the speed setting it is just a regular video slow-mo and you're not using the additional captured frames. The only way to do it is to use cinema tools to change the playback frame rate.

Interesting. FWIW, in Vegas, when you slow down 60p to 24p for a 24p render, it shows all the frames. Vegas doesn't require that each timeline have a given framerate. In fact, the project framerate only matters for previewing the footage. All Vegas cares about are the original format, the rendering format, and the effects and transforms applied. It takes each clip at face value.

(I don't want an NLE war. I'm just being clear that you can simply slow the footage in Vegas and get the desired results.)

[Nicholas de Kock]

This is a rough edit of a few clips I shot the other day. All filmed at 720/50P and simply slowed down in Sony Vegas by 50%. I love that you can now film everything at 50P and only slow down what you want. Another plus is that 50P looks so silky at normal speed. Password: dvinfo

This is a password protected video on Vimeo

[Liam Hall]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

Interesting. FWIW, in Vegas, when you slow down 60p to 24p for a 24p render, it shows all the frames. Vegas doesn't require that each timeline have a given framerate. In fact, the project framerate only matters for previewing the footage. All Vegas cares about are the original format, the rendering format, and the effects and transforms applied. It takes each clip at face value.

(I don't want an NLE war. I'm just being clear that you can simply slow the footage in Vegas and get the desired results.)

I'm not sure you're getting this Jon. Nothing has to be slowed down since it has been shot overcranked.

Some posters here are confusing a common video slow motion effect with an overcranked one - there's a major difference.

[Jon Fairhurst]

In Vegas, if you drop a 60p clip into the project, it will play in real time, unless the metadata says it's 24p, or if you tell it to slow down. (I don't own the 7D, but I assume that the metadata in the 60p clips say "60 fps".)

I'm not a Final Cut or Mac user, but I keep reading about time lines having a frame rate. That's a foreign concept for a Vegas user. And is it premiere that has to be restarted when you change project frame rates? These programs seem to approach video formats very differently.

The bottom line for Vegas is this: Put a 59.94p clip into your project. If it plays at real time, set it to play at a 0.400 rate. (Right-click the clip on the timeline and select properties.) It will play in slow motion at 23.976, one frame at a time as desired for an overcranked shot. In that menu, there is also an "undersample rate" that lets you skip frames, if desired. Set it to 0.500 and it will play every other frame.

The other half of this is to set your project to 23.976 so the edit preview is correct, and render to 23.976 to render as desired. On the other hand, you could set the project and render to 29.97 interlace and see traditional 3:2 pulldown of your 23.976p shots.

Again, I'm not claiming a "better than" or "worse than" situation. I'm just clarifying how Vegas handles framerates. Often I've seen people write about the FCP process as if it's gospel for all NLEs. (Vegas user probably do the same, though I'm not as sensitive to it.)

[Liam Hall]

Jon, you can play different frame rates in FCP too, but that isn't what I'm talking about. I'll post an explanation later as I've got to run now...

[Randy Panado]

Here's a wedding I shot with some 60P conformed to 24P mixed in. It looks great "overcranked".

Katrina ' Ryan - Premium Same Day Edit on Vimeo

[James Millward]

Thats great footage mate!

Im a complete novice. If I shoot say a miniauture at 50p. The miniauture gets moved at double pace. When its played back at 25p it moves at my inteded pace and has more weight to it.

Why isnt this 'overcranking'? whats the difference between shooting at 50p and playing back at 24/5p with a 550d/7d and doing the same with a traditional film camera? (I understand that minautres are shot at a variety of frame rates the 7d cant do).

Why isnt this real overcranking?

Thanks
James

[Randy Panado]

Appreciate it James!

I honestly couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you the difference but all I know is I'm loving the 7D over my old 5dmk2 :).

[Mike Calla]

Originally Posted by James Millward

Thats great footage mate!

Im a complete novice. If I shoot say a miniauture at 50p. The miniauture gets moved at double pace. When its played back at 25p it moves at my inteded pace and has more weight to it.

Why isnt this 'overcranking'? whats the difference between shooting at 50p and playing back at 24/5p with a 550d/7d and doing the same with a traditional film camera? (I understand that minautres are shot at a variety of frame rates the 7d cant do).

Why isnt this real overcranking?

Thanks
James

No - if you shoot at the speed you watch, nothing will happen, it will appear normal. But if you shoot at twice the speed you watch then the footage will appear slowed down.

And, theory it is REAL over-cranking, just the digital equivalent. Over cranking came from old time camera operators who literally turned the crank faster, by hand. When it came time to project, at normal speed, the footage would appear slow.

If our intended playback speed is 24 and we shoot at 50 then we slowed down our footage! We, for all intended purposes, over-cranked in camera!

[Richard Hunter]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

The bottom line for Vegas is this: Put a 59.94p clip into your project. If it plays at real time, set it to play at a 0.400 rate. (Right-click the clip on the timeline and select properties.) It will play in slow motion at 23.976, one frame at a time as desired for an overcranked shot. In that menu, there is also an "undersample rate" that lets you skip frames, if desired. Set it to 0.500 and it will play every other frame.

Hi Jon. It is also a good idea to disable resampling for that clip, so that Vegas does not try to create any new frames by interpolation or frame blending.

Richard

[David Chapman]

In FCP, when you drop in your 60p footage (59.94) into your 24p timeline (23.976), it will try to play at 24p but drop frames in the mix. If you slow down the clip to 40%, theoretically this should work out to be exactly the same rate, but it isn't. The clip will show 40% speed, but the velocity will change every 3 frames then every 2 frames from 50 to 33.3. It appears to be expecting some 3:2 cadence. Very odd.

You would think if you did the math (59.94 * .4 = 23.976) that FCP would play each frame appropriately. I had a clip that Cinema Tools conformed to 23.976 below a 59.94 clip in the timeline at 40% speed and the duration was off also. The conformed clip was a few frames longer (5;12 vs 5;08).

It seems the only way to use FCP without Cinema Tools is to open the clip in the viewer, change the speed to 40% and export as a quicktime movie from the viewer outside of the timeline. This brings the clip back in as 23.976 without any skipped frames, but adds another needless step to the workflow (unless you don't have Cinema Tools?). I exported as ProRes 720p24 and it came in just fine and at the same length of my clip conformed in Cinema Tools.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Whatever NLE you use, it's good practice to preview the output one frame time at a time. If you see frames repeat, skip ahead, or blend, you have problems.

Of course, if you are playing back 30p in real time in a 24p project or vice versa, you should expect to see time artifacts. But if you slow 60p or 30p down to 24p, you want to see nice clean frames.