quick clarification & iso & shutter control ideas.
 

Im jst about to receive the markII with novoflex nikon adapter. Ive read quite a few posts on many threads from different websites. I couldnt find a clear answer and got confused on a few things.

From what i undersand the SHUTTER & ISO are auto but you are able to lock them before u start recording.

My question is... as soon as u start recording does the SHUTTER and ISO remain locked when cameras moves from a really bright room to dark area? Or will the ISO and SHUTTER fluctuate and adjust to the lighting conditions during recording? Will adjustment on the nikon aperture cause iso and shutter to change during recording? Or do they stay?

If you engage exposure lock by pressing the * button before you start the recording then shutter speed and ISO will remain locked for the duration of that clip, even if you change the aperture during the clip.

As soon as the clip is finished the shutter speed and ISO revert to auto mode and it will be necessary to lock them again, if desired, before beginning the second clip and so on.

ok cool thanks.

Since my shoot takes place at night. I'd like to retain the same ISO and shutter evrytime. I know its difficult as it sets back to auto after u stop recording. Im thinking of up loading various colour grades samples from white to black to an itouch. Then by trail and error i can place itouch LCD front of the lens and try different shades to see which will give me the best iso and shutter. Once i find the sweet spot, I can then retain the same setting each time before I start filming.

In theory it should work?!?

Hey Ozan,

Keep us posted if this works.

Im jst thinking out loud... maybe this might work. This might be easyer and quicker? Im going to see if i can go and rent one for the weekend when the markII comes.

Litepanels Micro LED Camera Obie Light

Says...

"The Litepanels Micro features a conveniently located integrated on/off dimmer switch at the top of its housing for instant 100% to 0 dimming."

You can definitely get repeatable settings, especially with a manual Nikon lens.

First, put the mode dial in manual, and set the Live View Screen Setting as "Movie Display." Then enter Live View.

Press the shutter halfway, so you can see the exposure settings. You might need to press the Info button to get the desired mode.

Adjust the exposure control to one extreme or the other. This will give you more range when adjusting later.

Press the shutter button half way occasionally, so it doesn't time out.

Shine a light or shade it in order to get either 1/40 shutter or 100 ISO. Press AE Lock.

Now adjust the exposure compensation.

If the camera was set at 1/40, you can adjust to virtually any ISO. If the camera was set to 100 ISO, you can adjust to virtually any shutter speed.

That's how we did our shutter test: ~ The Murder of Dirk Snowglobe - Article: 5D Mark II Shutter Exposed! ~

Best of luck!

Jon Fairhurst,

I watched the shutter test video.... was interesting to watch. thanks

My project takes place at night. I want to retain a simple shutter speed but beable to adjust the iso from 800 - 1000...

SOoo ur telling me that i can adjust virtually use any ISO once the shutter is set? Can i technically maintain a a shutter of 1/40 and ISO of 1000 during my entire project? Then once i record i can then adjust the rest of the image with the aperture on my nikon lens?

That's absolutely the case.

My approach would be to set everything at 1/40 (assuming you want a "normal" shutter look), adjust aperture as needed to get the desired DOF, and adjust ISO to optimize your exposure. Keep in mind that aperture changes the artistic look of your shots by changing DOF, while ISO doesn't really change the look, aside from the amount of noise in the image.

Anything 1000 ISO and below is generally quite good. BTW, many of the night scenes that you see on Vimeo are 1/30 and 3200 ISO. The camera likes that setting in low light.

From wat i understood the shutter and iso are both automatic at the same time. I kinda got confused on how would u lock one while attempting to adjust the other!?!

I guess once the shutter is set. I could then set my nikon lens to "F5.6", then use the LED dimmer to adjust the iso settings? Once recording... I figure "F5.6" would give me some play to adjust the aperture while shooting.

Yes, id like to aim for 1/40. The commercial is going to be convert from 30p to 24p professionally without using any 3rd party software. Theres a local conversion house that does film transfer etc... They have a special patented digital machine that mathematically does magic to footage with conversion rates. The conversion is a bit pricey but worth it instead of using magicbullet or any other software.

So what shutter speed should we use in Euroland for the "normal" shutter look?

Yeah, the two play off of each other when they are unlocked. The trick is to lock them, and then adjust the exposure compensation with the back wheel. When at 1/40 shutter, the wheel adjusts ISO. When at 100 ISO, the wheel adjusts shutter. But you have to lock it first.

By "normal" shutter, I meant not super fast.

Typically, film is shot every 1/24 second and the shutter is 1/48, or 180 degrees. When the Canon shows 1/40 (or 1/50), it's actually shooting at about 1/45, so that's pretty close.

The problem is that the Canon shoots at 30 fps. So maybe 1/60 shutter would be better. You can get that, but only at 100 ISO. That leaves us with 1/40 (displayed; 1/45 or so in reality) as the most practical speed, since it gives us the most freedom with ISO.

I see the camera as having three useful shutter styles:

1) 1/30 and 3200 ISO is what the camera likes to run in really dark environments.
2) 1/40 and any ISO is the most flexible for typical shots
3) 100 ISO allows the fast shutter look. Throw enough light at the camera, and you can get close to the Saving Private Ryan look, where dirt from explosions is frozen still. We found that motion blur almost goes away at 1/500 and above in our record player test.

BTW, we shot The Last Outpost with a 1/320 shutter and 100 ISO for the outdoor snow scenes. The indoor scenes are 1/40 shutter. ~ The Murder of Dirk Snowglobe - Article: Short Film "The Last Outpost" Released ~

So you for both 24p and 25p environments you suggest shutter 40, because it is really 45? And so the closest we can get?

For all framerates I suggest 1/40 because you can then set whatever ISO you prefer.

If you want other (faster) framerates, you are stuck with 100 ISO. This is only viable if you have a lot of light.

To keep things consistent and keep a shallow DOF in daylight, you might need a collection of ND filters.

1/40 isn't ideal. It's a bit slow. But it's the most flexible, due to Canon's lack of manual control. If Canon were to give us manual control, I'd choose 1/60.

Thanks. Are you sure the camera reads out is what it is really shooting at?

If 1/60 is ideal.... then can the camera be set to 1/60 and 3200 iso? In your test i didnt notice to much light lost at 1/60.

i guess 1/60 shutter will also help with the 24p conversion look.

In our tests using a non-Canon lens, we were only able to consistently get 100 ISO at 1/60.

Maybe you can move a light and hit AE-lock at just the right time to get other values, but these are basic rules with a non-Canon lens:

* Choose 1/40 and any ISO
* Choose 100 ISO and any shutter speed
* Choose 1/30 and 3200 ISO

As you can see, the only option with 1/60 is 100 ISO.

Also note that when the camera displays 1/60, it is actually recording at about 1/80 as shown in our shutter video.

Sooo going back to what i said earlier... Im hoping the LED dimmer will help give more control for this. If 1/60 is locked would i see the iso jump around depending on the light conditions? Or once you hit lock does then the iso get displayed in 1/60 shutter.

From my experience, it won't help.

The camera might pass through various interesting settings when you change the light, but it always settles on its preferred settings. For an LED light to give you these interesting settings, you would need it to do the following:

1) Emit one light level
2) Camera stabilizes
3) Change to second light level
4) Hit AE Lock at EXACTLY the right time.

The problem is that this is not easily repeatable, so it's not useful for real productions.

The idea with 1/40 and 100 ISO is that you can lock the camera NEAR the desired setting, and then use exposure compensation to hit the exact level you want.

For instance, let's say the exposure compensation is at the center, and you lock at 1/40 and 100 ISO. As you increase the exposure the ISO goes up, and the shutter stays at 1/40. As you decrease the exposure, the shutter speed increases, and the ISO stays at 100 ISO.

The bottom line is that if you want a faster shutter than 1/40, you must have enough light to shoot at 100 ISO. And that can be a lot of light!

I really hope that Canon will change their policy on manual settings. It wouldn't change the overall market dynamics, but it will let us get the settings that we want, it will keep us from fighting the camera on each and every shot, and it will help Canon sell Canon lenses, rather than Nikons.

My thought on this Jon. I've never produced anything I can think of where our cameras weren't set to 0db gain - or in 5D2 terms 100 ISO. The idea has always been to have as clean an "emulsion" as possible and light to that. I've done a good deal of Doc work too and certainly don't light all the time, but my cameras are never set beyond 0db. So the ability to quickly nail 100 ISO is a good thing and if I'm right about 40-50 = 1/60 for a 180 degree shutter then all the better.

But yes, it would be really nice if Canon recognized the unnecessary and unprofessional situation they're putting countless thousands of users through by not giving us any control over basic shooting parameters.

I was ready to sell my Nikon bodies and glass and convert everything to Canon when this first came out. Now all I've done is sold my Nikon bodies and they lost thousands in new lens purchases from me alone. Multiply that by the many others in my situation and it's not hard to see how Canon missed this very obvious sales point in developing the MKII.

I have hope that from their own profit standpoint and from the concerns of their customers, that they'll address this in the near future.

Soo are u saying that once the shutter was locked at 1/60. And as soon as you adjusted the light... the iso wouldn't start to jump up? The camera will override the shutter lock and decrease the shutter to 1/30 and then finally the iso will automatically boost up in low light?

When u did your test... How did u hit 1/60 shutter?

By setting ISO to 100 and adjusting the exposure compensation.

Soo wait... the only way to adjust the shutter is by locking the iso. And the iso can only be set to 100 in order to achieve 1/60 1/80, etc... ?

Or u cant go there other way and lock the iso @ 3200 then exposure compensation at 1/60.

I get a little confused when u say exposure compensation which is done internally and not done on the nikon lens.

Have u evre done any test with a manual lens?

Ozan,

I should clarify my terms:

By "exposure compensation" I mean the in-camera adjustment from -2 to +2. It is done with the wheel on the back of the camera. It is not the same as "aperture" control, which is done with the aperture ring on a manual lens. All my work is with a manual lens (or a partially unscrewed Canon lens.)

See page 96 of the manual for a description of exposure compensation.

"AE Lock" locks all three parameters: aperture (for a Canon lens), shutter speed, and ISO. (See page 98.) After you press "AE Lock", the only adjustments are aperture (with a Nikon lens), and exposure compensation.

If you lock at 3200 ISO the shutter speed WILL be 1/30, due to Canon's algorithm. If you reduce the exposure, it will go to 3200 ISO and 1/40. After that it will reduce ISO, and the exposure will remain at 1/40.

I believe that it is impossible to get 3200 ISO and 1/60 on this camera in video mode.

Ah ok, Ya sorry got a little confused there. Im getting this camera very very soon. Hopefully today and If not on monday. Sooo basically we are stuck with... (1/40 with any ISO) and (100 ISO with any shutter speed)... in terms of some kinda control.

Also besides from 3200 iso... what the next ISO setting below that? Is it 1600?

I think so, but I can't check it right now. My son has the camera for filming our Dirk Snowglobe pilot. (I will compose the music and do audio post.)

if you're to believe the display on the LCD, it steps down the ISO thusly: 3200 -> 2500 -> 2000 -> 1600

Thanks
 

Thank you very much for your clear explanations of how it behaves. I just played with movie mode and I actually understood what it was doing based on your explanations here. Before it just seemed to do random things. I think I can really use it now.

I have a question. I had my f-stop fixed at f4 in a dimly lit room. I observed that it stayed at ISO 3200 and changed the shutter speed as I dialed the exposure. The video sequence shot at +2 EV showed a shutter speed of 1/6 second, which is really 1/30, right? Then I dialed the exposure down to +0 EV and it showed 1/30 second, which is also 1/30, right?

But my two video sequences showed two different light levels that matched the exposure bias each time, both during recording and in playback. How is this possible if both were actually f4, ISO 3200, and 1/30? How and where was it lying to me? Could it be that it actually used a higher ISO?

You can go to Live View/Movie Func. Set, Metering Timeout, and change it to 30 minutes.

Thanks Mark. I'll pass this to Nathan, who is filming as we speak (write?)

If the flashlight thing doesn't frustrate the heck out of us enough, when it times out and you have to do it all over again before you can shoot, well, it doesn't help.

The longer timeout setting is a "must do."

I haven't done much at 1/30 and 3200 ISO, but I think you've got it exactly right.

The camera can't expose longer than 1/30 seconds with a 30 fps frame rate. If changing the exposure actually makes things brighter, there are two possibilities:

1) Though it says 1/6 and 3200 ISO, it's really 1/30 and 12800 ISO or something, or
2) It's faking the longer shutter speed by adding some amount of the previous frame to the current frame. That could lead to some nasty motion blur artifacts with seriously long tails. (In signal processing terms, this would be an IIR, or "infinite impulse response" filter. Part of the image from the very first frame could still be there in the final frame!)

My guess is that the ISO changes. I assume that you didn't see crazy long shutter times and motion trails.

We need an equivalent of your turntable study to measure ISO. Unfortunately noise is hard to measure. Of course at 12,800 and 25,600 it may not be too hard. What would be the best background, gray, black?

So if it is ISO, then maybe the entire scale of brightness is:

1) Max ISO (?) to ISO 3200 with 1/30
2) ISO 3200 to ISO 100 with 1/40
3) 1/40 to Max speed (?) with ISO 100

Could it be this simple? So the key to shooting would be stay in the second range all the time. It would be easy to get repeatable F-stop and speed. The ISO doesn't matter as much for repeatability.

You said 1/40 is really 1/48, right? If this is true, then the motion blur would be identical to that from 24 fps with 180 degree shutter. Then when the video is converted to 24 fps you'd have the perfect blur. Could Canon have been thinking this when they used 1/48?

By the way, I saw a video, which I don't have the link to right now, where a guy used a variable ND filter and he would just turn the brightness up to get into the range where the speed was right. Then he would lock the exposure and turn the brightness back down smoothly watching the ISO. He got full control pretty easily. I would have to go back to see if he claimed to be able to control different speeds reliably. The singh-ray var ND covers 2 to 8 stops, which gives great control. Unfortunately it is $300.

I think this could be right. Keep in mind that some are saying that 1/30 looks just like 1/40. I don't know. I didn't test it. But I wouldn't be surprised.

True. For a given scene with a given lens, keep the aperture and shutter speeds identical. Adjust ISO, lighting and/or ND filters to optimize your exposure. There's an S-curve in the camera, so it's important to keep the exposure in the sweet spot, unless you want to spend time tweaking luma curves to get things to match.

Something like that. I've been saying 1/45, since it's someplace between 1/40 and 1/50. You can pause the video and make your best estimate.

Regardless, the motion blur will be similar to film; however, with the faster frame rate, it's a bit too smooth.

I'd actually prefer 1/80 for 30 fps, to give a more shuttered look. It might be 30 fps, but if the shutter is fast enough, it should still be a bit dreamy. If you do the math, you'll find that 24 fps at 1/48 and 30 fps at 1/80 have the same amount of time that the shutter is closed.

1/24 - 1/48 = 1/48 = 0.208333
1/30 - 1/80 = 0.208333

But it's a moot point right now. We're shooting everything at 1/40 (displayed), so we can control ISO.

If you find the link, post it. I'd love to be able to control the ISO at a consistent 1/80.

First, here is the link. It is not a video but it explains the process.

Andrew Yip Nature Photography Using a variable ND filter with the 5D Mark II’s video mode

Secondly, I shot some video at 1/8 and there were no trails. So that theory is out.

Thirdly, I managed to do the ISO tests. I varied the exposure and shot a dark blue leather couch. I saved frames as 200x150 jpegs at maximum quality and used photoshop to adjust brightness (not gain) so all had histograms in the middle. I accidentally found a way to measure noise. When saving the jpeg, the file size indicated the noise.

1/30 at 3200 (3200) 12,800 bytes
1/15 at 3200 (6400) 13,263 bytes (ISO definitely changed)
1/8 at 3200 (12800) 21,318 bytes
1/4 at 3200 (25600) 22,119 bytes
1/2 at 3200 (51200) 22,647 bytes

Here are the five 200x150 patches. Judge for yourself.

http://elleh.com/3200.jpg
http://elleh.com/6400.jpg
http://elleh.com/12800.jpg
http://elleh.com/25600.jpg
http://elleh.com/51200.jpg

I think between your turntable experiments and these noise experiments we have proven that the speed goes as high as it needs in bright light and the ISO goes as high as it needs in dark light.

When doing my experiments I proved to myself that I can shoot at any ISO at 1/40 repeatedly. Now I need to see if I can start at another speed and hold that speed. If our previous thinking is correct that won't be possible and it will always jump to 1/40 when changing ISO.

The method used in the first link above can get various speeds but he does it by not changing the exposure bias after the initial setting, but by changing the actual light using the var ND. Luckily I think Canon did it right for me and I will be happy with 1/40 and not have to pay $300 for var ND. I'm just going to pay $15 for gel NDs.

A guy on DPReview said to just hold gels in front and switch them. I don't think that will work because the light will jump too much and throw off the speed setting.

Nice test!

3200 ISO (actual) looks amazingly good. Above that, not so much. This shows that we should try to avoid shooting slower than 1/30 (displayed) by adding light, when possible.

A cheaper method of creating a variable ND filter is to get two polarizers, and rotate one. When they line up, the light goes through. When they don't, the light is blocked. (Kind of like the way an LCD operates.) Of course, good polarizers that don't lose light aren't cheap, but it's nice to have a good polarizer for deep blue sky shots, and to remove unwanted reflections anyway.

Again, nice work on the super-high ISO tests.

Im curious how 1/40 shutter @ 30p will look at when i get it converted to 24p at the transfer house.

I remember watching the first markII video footage from vincent... Some night shots u can notice grain in the sky and surrounds. And other shots looked grain free. Is it possible that the grain free shots were at 3200 iso?


Completely off topic question... how long does the stock battery last on the markII?

A bit off topic...
 

I have found that "auto lightning optimizer" helps on 50hz flicker a bit.
I've been shooting in 1/40th 1/50/th and 1/60th and nothing flickers.
But then on the other day every light flicked and I turned the lightning optimizer back to "strong".

This 5D is sort of independent thinking machine anyways, it does do something it will not tell to the users.

Oh and enabling "Highlight priority" mode will give you much more noise.

Also if you use manual lens it is easy to get the shutter to 40 or 50 or 60 and lock it while holding down the shutter button half way. It will lock the shutter to 50/60th and you can dial down the ISO while the shutter speed is/stays 50 or 60 and not something down to 30th.

But when using EF compatible lens there is no chance to get the shutter up from 1/20th when using 19mm wide lenses for example and it will not come down from 1/80th or 1/100 when using 85mm lens - this is pure logic of photography shutter speeds vs lens focal length but why on earth did they implement it to a movie mode? As you might assume the EF 50mm lens is the only one that works alright out of the box.
Our beloved capitalism is ripping us right there. The slower the apparent development the higher the profits. As there is absolutely no competition to 5D MKII why invest even an hour to make it better ;)... World economy is in so good shape that no one wants to sell anything, right? Even better, Canon announced additional +10% to +20% to existing prices from Feb Mar. In the other hand the shorter you are and the narrower is your vision the more reduced your global outlook will be. (I just watched the horrible photos of Nagasaki ground zero again to hold myself back a little.)
If you want to give an example of how the interests of the shareholders are not pro-development and innovation you can quote me and every other 5D filmmaker here.

T

It makes no sense. For EF lenses (which is all I have) I am assuming that locking the lens by turning or taping the contacts will be necessary to have any real control. So far I have not tried the lens unlocked.

I think it has a good chance of looking good, since the exposure time is correct for all intents and purposes.

New test with iso, shutter ad manual lens.... does anyone speak spanish?

Betty_Canon 5D Mark II_Control de ISO y Profundidad de Campo on Vimeo


does anyone speak spanish or can translate?

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