EOS 5D Mk. II Upgrade Wishlist Poll -- taking suggestions
 

Two years ago on this site we ran a voting poll on our Canon XH Series forum soliciting suggestions for improving that camera system. We established what the voting options would be using this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-xh-...-wishlist.html and ran the actual poll here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-xh-...t-poll-v1.html.

We presented the results to the engineering team from Canon Inc. who designed the XH Series when we met them at NAB2007. Using feedback from DV Info Net readers, Canon Inc. incorporated a large number of the items we submitted into the XL H and XH Series updates which followed in 2008 (including the single most commonly requested change to the XH series; OIS On / Off mappable to Custom Key).

We've done this in the past as well, with similarly good results, for the Canon XL2 Wishlist. So, considering the popularity of the EOS 5D Mk. II and all of the potential it holds if only some things about it were changed and improved, it seems like the right time to do another voting poll. And yes, I will hand-deliver it to the right people at Canon Inc., or failing that, at least to the upper echelon at Canon USA.

I'm reluctant to call it a "firmware" wish list though, because frankly I'm not convinced that one of the most commonly requested changes, the addition of 24p and 25p frame rates, can be accomplished by a firmware update (I think it most likely calls for a hardware change; most likely an update to the Digic IV processor itself).

Therefore I'd like to couch this as "what are your desired changes without radically altering the D-SLR body," purposefully limiting the poll to suggestions which improve the EOS 5D Mk. II without altering its D-SLR form factor. I think we can all agree that ideally an entirely new camera system, designed on an ergonomic basis specifically for video, would be the best thing to happen (think Canon XL or XH with the 5D2's full-frame sensor)... but what I'm after here are suggestions which could result in a *relatively* prompt change (i.e., well within a year) to the 5D2 itself, as a D-SLR. Meaning, there's not much room on a D-SLR body for XLR or Mini-XLR input jacks, but improving the audio quality with a controllable compressor and limiter is certainly feasible... as is offering a menu option to re-configure the AV output jack as a headphone audio monitor.

Within this scope, what sort of changes and improvements would you like to see? We'll probably offer at least a dozen choices (our XH wish list had 22) and allow four choices per voter (most likely the most popular will be full manual control in video mode, followed by three more of your choosing).

We'll start the poll and open it up for voting as soon as there's some consensus on what those feature set changes and upgrades should be... here's your chance to provide your input!

Thanks Chris! Great idea.

I'll make it easy. Aperture Priority mode in video.

Here's an earlier thread on the upgrade topic:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos...nge-these.html

My top two suggestions were:

1. Menu option to re-purpose the AV output jack as a stereo headphone jack,
for live monitoring of audio recording, per the entire Canon VIXIA camcorder line.

2. Option for manual audio level control (simple, ganged L+R, as on the consumer level VIXIA camcorders)

...but there's a lot more within that discussion.

*Manual control of ISO in video mode
*Manual control of aperture in video mode
*Manual control of shutter speed in video mode
*Cupholders.

(cupholders may be too extensive an upgrade, how about audio out through the A/V port for headphones)

I agreed with others on manual controls.

I second what Chris said, disable AGC and allow the AV jack to be use for headphones.

Besides cupholders, I'll vote for expanded recoding time (file size).

By the way, Chris, nice initiative!

-- peer

Chris, i just realized you said audio out through the A/V port as well, so I'm changing mine to add:
* Switch between full auto and full manual video mode.

1) Manual shutter control in video mode
2) Manual ISO control in video mode (I'm good with my Nikon lenses)
3) Manual control of audio levels + headphone out

(Edit: I was going for what I considered to be "realistic." After reading Chris B's post below, if we can ask for anything, I like his list.)

1. Full manual control over ISO, shutter speed, and fstop (iris) selection.

2. Audio monitoring switch as was done with the HV20/30/40 models allowing AV to switch to to Headphone monitoring.

3. on screen sound monitoring levels display

4. Full manual control over sound levels.

5. Live HD viewing via HDMI- not reduced to sd at commencement of shooting.

6. Zebras with setting for 70-100%

7. Windshield wipers to keep the imager clean.

I know this is a bit OT, but since you will be talking to Mr. Canon, have him design an attachable LCD that plugs into video out that can be adjusted to different angles, and maybe have a hoodman attached too to double as a viewfinder- like we see on the Sony EX3...

A "swivel" LCD screen...

A ffwd & rewind button to search through long clips. The whole first fame,last frame,next frame,previous frame is a little frustrating when I want to search the clip quickly.

What if the next frame / previous frame had the capability for shuttle search forward and reverse by holding the button down.

Great suggestions.

Let's add...
* Video appropriate auto-focus
* A momentary auto-focus feature that is live-video friendly
* Exposure lock should toggle
* Press and hold exposure lock for a momentary auto-exposure function. It should have a fairly long time constant, so you could release the button early, if the camera tries to go too far. The goals should be to hold the gain within, say 100 ISO and 1000 ISO, and to adjust shutter speed, if at all, as a last resort.
* Speaking of shutter speeds, I'd like finer control. It seems to jump from 1/45 to 1/80. I want 1/60 for 30p video.
* Read all lines from the sensor and filter for no aliasing.

To get crazy, we could add...
* Motorized zoom on special video lenses. (The camera-lens interface would need some new features.)
* A way to remotely control zoom, focus, settings...
* Selectable, loadable settings on a smaller memory card
* Overcrank! Undercrank!
* Timecode
* Built-in ND filters, maybe in the special video lenses

Okay, the crazy features belong in a video division camera that uses a FF35 or S35 sensor, rather than the 5D MkIII. The new video lens interface would be compatible with Canon EF lenses as well as new 35mm "V" series lenses. The "V" series lenses would fit Canon DSLRs as well as the new video camera bodies.

My top four:

• Manual control of shutter, aperture, and ISO.
• Record longer than 12 minutes by starting a new file at 4 GB limit.
• Manual control of audio gain.
• Option to re-configure the AV output jack as a headphone audio monitor.

Lower priority:

• Option to truly disable noise reduction (currently NR is applied even when set to "off")
• LCD Display of audio levels, focal length, exposure index bar, and I.S. indicator.
• Move the hidden "dead pixel remap" feature from "manual sensor clean" to its own menu item.
• Ability to toggle exposure lock
• Zebras
• RGB histogram
• Peaking
• 24p

Pie-in-the-sky dreaming:

• Magnification while recording.
• Focus distance.
• Live HDMI output of 720p or 1080p.
• Live composite output of 480psf anamorphic 16:9.
• Read the entire sensor instead of skipping two out of three lines.
• Improved read-reset (skew, wobble, jello, etc.).
• Faster contrast-detect autofocus

Stills-mode only requests:

• Make raw RGB histograms available (gamma-only, no white balance or picture profile).
• Allow metadata-based ISO settings (i.e. 5 stops more highlight headroom with metadata ISO 25600 vs the current implementation).
• Auto ISO in Manual mode and with flash.
• Permit the photographer to set bit depth per ISO settings (i.e. 12 bits for ISO 100, 8 bits for ISO 25600).
• Offer simple nonlinear formats for visually lossless compression (but without the posterization in NEF caused by bad LUT and matrix math).

Good one. I could probably live with just 1/45 and 1/80 if I had to (at least it would be the same from shot to shot).



That is a really cool idea. Canon could even make some lightweight and inexpensive 20X zooms if the maximum aperture was f/11 or so.

Chris, that would suffice.

I forgot to say, 24p or 25p in my top priority list.

- 24p/25p
- Full manual mode.
- 1/48, 1/50 and 1/60 shutter values.

One thing that probably won't happen <sigh>
 

Microsoft Windows File Systems

For compatibility with various versions of Windows, the 5D2 uses the FAT 32 format for its CF cards. This limits the individual file size to 2^32-1 bytes or a byte less than 4GB. Windows Vista uses the NTFS file system and has a much larger maximum file size limit.

As an aside, the Mac OS X includes full support for Windows file systems (FAT12, FAT16 and FAT32) and read-only support for NTFS.

Yeah, it would be nice if the 5D2 were like other video cameras and started recording a new file when it reached the 4 GB limit.

My choices:

1) Let the Video Mode follow the "Mode Dial" on the camera:
"M" = Full Manual Mode (User sets ISO, Aperture, and Shutter Speed)
"Av" = Aperture Mode (User sets Aperture, Camera sets everything else)
"Tv" = Shutter Speed Mode (User sets Shutter Speed, Camera sets everything else)
Green Box = Full Auto Mode (Camera sets everything)

2) Manual control of Audo Gain

3) Zebras

4) More intelligent bracketing for stills where user selects the "+/-" range and the "increment", and the camera determines the number of shots required (EG. User sets +/- 1 stop, in 1 stop increments, yielding 3 shots total, or +/- 1 stop, in 1/3 stop increments, yielding 7 shots total). This is useful for HDR photography.

5) Create a new file after 4GB limit reached, with no loss in video or audio.

Julian

This would make the most sense of all.

journalism
 

As a photographer I would suggest adding cross focus for all the sensors, adding more sensors, and increasing the autofocus speed and accuracy. I recognize this is a video forum but in my mind a primary purpose of the 5DII is photojournalism now combined with video journalism, so the camera should continue to impove in both fields (and autofocus is the 5DII's biggest shortcoming for photojournalism).

From the video perspective there needs to be some active control of aliasing; to me this is the only thing that might keep 5DII video off the 5 O'clock news.

In this order considering what is needed and possible:

Full manual control of aperture, shutter, and ISO (capability already exists within the camera)
Audio gain control
Headphone monitoring
Begin recording new file when reaching the 4G limit

Fantasy wishes would be zebra/histogram and different framerates

1. HDMI liveview 1080i/720p w/o overlay
2. Pressing EXP Lock for 5 seconds saves ISO, Shutter and Aperture (if applicable) which creates a camera preset reminiscent of the XL2 preset implementation.
3. Flashing warning indicator when gain is used

-C

24p/25p/30p selectable
No time limit recording
Clean, not compressed HDMI out
Manual control


Now!!! ;-DD

1. PAL Mode: 25p full HD with usable videoout on the Composite Output



2. Zebra on the Video Out
3. Keep LCD active when connecting HDMI or Composite Out
4. Keep settings in videomode after stopping recording
5. Disable AGC on Audio when connecting external Mic/Line Input

But mostly and always 25p for us in PAL countries, because 30p is unusable for TV here !
But mostly and always 25p for us in PAL countries, because 30p is unusable for TV here !
But mostly and always 25p for us in PAL countries, because 30p is unusable for TV here !

I love my 5d as I love my Sony HD CAM and my LETUS

Matthias von Mutius

I can't stop thinking that Canon would consider full manual mode a feature that you have to pay a lot for. For them it may be like asking for full manual mode in a consumer camcorder. What do you have when you take the manual buttons out of a XHA1? A HV30. That leads me to think those features will be found in the next 1D along with, maybe, faster rolling shutter, 25p for PAL countries and less aliasing.

That would leave us with a limited "cheap" solution (5D) for people who can't pay more or doesn't mind 30p and automatic mode and a full manual 30p/25p professional solution about the price of a Scarlet s35mm. It would be still cheaper than a Scarlet because you don't have to buy extra modules and you have and FF35mm sensor. Also if you want more resolution, less compression, modular design and raw capabilities, you can buy the Scarlet.

It sounds like something a big company like Canon would do. I really hope I'm wrong.

Jose While I absolutely agree with you about canon wanting to charge more I think that your argument about a1 and hv-30 is inaccurate. The two biggest differences between those cameras are the glass and the sensor. The HV has a smaller version of both. I think that actually makes up the bulk of the cost difference. In fact it seems like it should be cheaper for a manual option because there is less electronics doing things. Maybe instead of updating or hacking the firmware we should just give the camera a virus so that we have to do the thinking and not it...

In Pal countries the biggest drawback is the lack of 25p. Makes output to DVD etc difficult, and also leads to problems with 50hz light source flicker. So for me:

1) 25p
2) manual exposure control (shutter, aperture, iso)

24p would also be nice for North American users, but given you have 30p to work with, the camera is not so crippled for professional use (hence I can see why it's not at the top of most lists). Lack of 25p is the main reason I'm considering giving up on the 5D and switching to the GH1 when it arrives.

How about autofocus in video mode?

For clarification, you are probably suggesting either faster contrast-detect autofocus or an on/off instead of "hold down the button" activation. (Since the 5D2 already has contrast detect and face detect autofocus, but you have to hold down the button, and they're too slow for live usage.)

Make it simple please... Only upgrades which are possible with a new firmware or by adding very simple physical changes.

There's no point in asking for things like an image stabilization mechanism on the sensor or any other feature which involves drastic changes in the main structure of the camera because that's not the way a big company like Canon has in mind when they think of an upgrade. A firmware upgrade like the one that's suposed to take place in April will be limited by the actual hardware that the camera has now.

Think of software updates. All big changes and hardware upgrades will be kept for future models.

Yes, should have been more clear. Thanks!

Hey Jose!

My proposal was for an actual 5D II upgrade, not a firmware upgrade in April. I thought this was what Chris asked for initially.

I am definitely not an engineer and I cannot assess how difficult or "body altering" would be to include image stabilization on the sensor. I also have no way of knowing whether Canon has already worked on a similar solution and is ready to implement it on its future cameras or not.

All I know is that I would really like to see in-body image stabilization in a future 5D upgrade for use on hand held shooting with non-stabilized lenses (there is lot's of them!)

If a mechanical solution would be too much to ask for, how about an optional electronic image stabilization solution? My understanding is that this works by cutting off the edges of the image and then utilizing this extra "real estate" to stabilize electronically the image in the processor. Also, from what I gather, 5D already crops 2 out for 4 edges of the sensor (top and bottom), due to the 16:9 aspect ratio being smaller than the actual sensor size.

I understand that EIS degrades the image in a small - chip camera but since we are having this nice big sensor here, would it still be a serious problem? Or is it something that someone could live with, in case he had to?

I don't know.

But if it were of acceptable quality, it would be a fantastic option to have as a firmware update and be able to switch it on or off according to your needs.

So, let me rephrase my previous proposal: "Add some kind of good quality in-camera image stabilization, easily switchable on or off." They could even make it work only when the camera is set in video mode, so that it does not eat up on their lens sales for photography purposes.

Fair enough?

Personally I could live without an image stabilization system. In fact I prefer not to have it. Thanasis, please don't take this as a personal attack, but I really hope Canon isn't thinking of a software IS for this cam. Basically because they're already "playing" enough with the image to add more cropping and stretching, so if they're thinking of adding such a feature, I hope it's selectable.

I read the first post again. It certainly doesn't limit the changes to software but it does say "simple body changes". So we can say some of the the requests in this thread may be aimed at a firmware update coming soon, and the rest could be left for the next 5D Mark III. Anyway I still think physical image stabilization would mean a big body change. If they're thinking about it it may go to the 1D line.

No worries Jose!

I don't feel personally attacked :-)

But, I do hope for an updated 5D with good quality in-body image stabilization (plus good auto-focus, full manual control, less (or no) aliasing, better audio (and audio control), headphones jack and 25p).

Also, how about the ability of setting iris, shutter and ISO limits and let the camera adjust ISO automatically within these limits without visible "stepping"?

I could certainly find good use of a camera packaging all these!

Not likely to happen, since Canon builds image stabilization into its EF lenses, not on the sensor. If you want IS, you simply choose an IS-equipped lens. Thanks for your other suggestions, though!

That's something I was going to point out. Why not going for an IS lens? You've got them already.

Panasonic offers an IS zoom with the new GH1. It's another option.

Canon had a nice demo of its IS technology at CES. It showed the circuit/motors in action, and showed how they had refined/shrunk it over the years.