Cinevate's new rig for the 5D2...
 

This got up on their website today:

Cinevate Inc.

I'll save my comments till later...

-- peer

It sure doesn't 'look' as cool as the RedRock rigs. It looks a little sloppy- however looks can be deceiving. The best part about it is the price.... $0.00. :)

Not exactly a thing of beauty, it is?

Then again, I hear that their Durus Follow Focus is silky smooth. I'll take a stripped down version of the rig with one of those, please...

Frankly, with a price tag of $0, I first thought it was a joke -- that they were competing for some sort of Razzie Award in film gear design. It looks like their product designer (if they have one) is the same guy who made this motorcycle stand that we use to lift 500lb bikes with: O'Neal Racing Bike Stand - Motorcycle Superstore

Well, at $940 it might as well be made out of silky gold.

-- peer

Bloody hell, I saw this on the NAB pics but with all seriousness WTF is that? "Look mom I have a motorized head on my shoulder!"
And still I see a mattebox with dual non-independently rotating trays (for grad and polarizer)?
Those handles when compared to 15mm rod diametre are something like 20mm in dia. How well can you hold those gripsticks?

Maybe it's time to mount 35mm magazine to the hotshoe of 5D just because it looks like something else than DSLR then?

I truly respect all the DOF adaptor makers trying to survive the extinction of 35mm adaptor but hell, the market has exploded in different direction - it is mass market now.
How short sighted are the small companies that are in the best possible position to sell thousands of items to this new market if they did even some online research on how to make things work with minimal effort.

Cheers,
T

Normally I would ignore posts like the ones above as I don't believe they reflect Chris Hurd's policy of mutual respect on the site. However there are a few things here that need to be set straight. Besides, Glenn, you deserve a polite answer :-) You probably don't recall this but 5 years ago I was inspired by your work in shooting my first (and only) wedding. The DSLR rig posted on our website is missing a price and description because Hubert posted it up yesterday and mistakenly left it online. You'll see it back up tomorrow...he's just learning that side of the business.

To be perfectly clear, our DSLR shoot rigs are based completely on our Proteus carbon rails systems which have two patents pending at this point. They are highly regarded systems that have received very positive reviews from the likes of Phil Bloom (search his blog) and Matt Jeppsen over at FreshDV. We have not come up with marketing gimmicks, crap or otherwise as our system is based on tried, proven and true products already in use by our customers. The rails are solid carbon fiber, and all the parts 100% CNC machined aluminum. They are lifetime parts. The cage, shoulder mount and rails system have been configured as our shooters in the field prefer to use them. If you look on the cover of EventDV's April issue, you'll see Patrick Moreau's rig which is pretty much what you see in our catalog. His article on using the 5D MkII is in the article. The good news is that if you already own our Proteus 45cm rails and our shoulder mount kit, you've got pretty much everything you need. We will offer the kit with our Proteus cage and Durus follow focus as options simply because our shooters have expressly requested these options. The Durus follow focus is a very special product carying a lifetime warranty. It's made completely here in Canada and each unit is hand assembled by the machinists who make them. Currently, they're priced significantly below where they should be. Finally, following NAB, we've been overwhelmed with requests to arrange the existing components in kit form...hence the DSLR catalog entry.

We shot the video segment today on the DSLR shoot rig and our modular swing-away mattebox. If the filter options are an issue, you'll want to wait for the upcoming 4x5.6 independent 3-tray module. These will be up early next week.

If you're still skeptical, it would be good to mention that Canon USA chose to tour our booth at NAB with their VIP corporate group. Our remote focus controller was of special interest mounted on the Canon 5D MkII used with Patrick's Steadicam Flyer :-)

Respectfully,
Dennis Wood
www.cinevate.com

Hey Dennis great to see you on here. 5 years ago- wow. Was it from this board??? Very flattering indeed. Now I'm sure you have to look no further than Patrick...at least that's true for myself.

Anyway- agreed some of those comments were uncalled for. Even mine being a bit borderline, my apologies. You guys make great products and I'm sure you know this but I recently invested in a Pegasus Heavy Lifter and two sets of rails from you guys. Earlier pining over going a less expensive route with the indislider and the like- I'm quite pleased with my decision. I was even able to use it on a shoot this past weekend for the first time and I loved the moving footage I was able to achieve with it, even the first time using it. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos...hts-shoot.html

http://www.msprotege.com/members/Laz...P5/pegasus.jpg

Tell Hubert I appreciate the excellent customer service and super fast turn-around! Especially considering he had to deal with me when I was aggravated after getting the rig and realizing I needed a ball attachment for the onboard bull!

Anyway to make a long story short I just wanted to let others know that you guys have come a long way and are making some awesome products. I spent about 10 minutes drooling over your follow focus unit in the Video University section of your site.

I also wanted to apologize for the other members rather rude comments about your product as well. The last thing I want is for the community to discourage you guys. I think you guys are an asset to the industry and appreciate all the time and effort you guys put into designing new products. I think it's great that there's another DSLR rig on the block it makes it better for all of us to have a wider selection to choose from.

Keep up the great work and thank you kindly for the great experience I had doing business with you personally.

Dennis, I am curious how the shooter will get his eyes on the LCD. My experience is that you need something like a hood loupe to shoot in a lot of situations. The way the pic looks is that the camera is aligned with the rails makiing use of a hood loupe very difficult.

Thks for the new solution Dennis. I think it is good to have more choices anytime. It's a matter of personal preference on the solutions. Please keep up the good work and excellent service support. Cinevate wins my vote for one of the best service support for a non US/Canadian customer.

Glen, that picture should be in our catalog...I love it! I won't however show it to our insurance agent :-) I normally wouldn't mention a customer's relationship with us online, but now that you've mentioned it...I did notice (and remember) your name in the outgoing orders a few weeks ago. We have indeed worked very hard to elevate the company and it's service to the standard we feel shooters deserve. Your experience with us it what we're striving for with every customer, product and transaction. Thanks for saying thanks :-)

Lou, typically the shooter's right or left eye ends up being just off axis to the camera...and so works great that way. The shoulder rig has nearly infinite variations so you can reconfig the shoulder mount to rest against your chest to keep the camera directly in front too. Chris is editing the DSLR piece as I type this so expect a Cinevate Video University update in a day or two. The video covers several different configurations as we outfit the rig.

Cheers,
Dennis Wood
www.cinevate.com

The promised video overview and catalog entry are up. If anyone has things they'd like to see...we're always listening. Our record for taking a concept idea to production is 4 days so if there's a feature you'd like to see and it makes sense, we'll likely do it :-)

Cheers,
Dennis Wood
www.cinevate.com

Dennis:

I still think you have to get the camera offset from the center of the rig, so shooter can get something like a Hoodman on it. The way it is set up, I don't see how it can be doable. I ghetto rigged something here:

YouTube - Prototype Shoulder Brace For Canon 5D Mark II

The big weak point with this camera is not being able focus. At this point, best method seems to be by magnifying viewof the LCD-- especially in hand held situation, Monitoring out will not work that well, because in goes out to SD during shooting. That is the challenge. If you are shoulder mounting, assumption is you want to be able to focus on the fly.

Toenis, I'm with you 100%. Do you ever recall seeing actual camera footage from any of these rigs (no matter what brand name) Footage of camera person walking, changing direction, up & down stairs etc, you know, the little every day events ? I can't say I have. However there is an abundance of beautifully styled product promotion videos, ones with gorgeous handles, and snappy must have clamps, and so on. These days I think the term is, marketing, (like ice for Eskimos). The short version, be big, let's see the product in action, to evaluate it's true worth.

The sad fact is, 5DMK2 has no included stabilization, it records every movement faithfully, dings and all. In my estimation, it is imperative to have this camera on a solid foundation for quality results. My favorite tool of choice, a tripod.

Happy shooting. Ron.

Glen,

The Pegasus heavy lifter looks good, I'm amazed to see that you have it rigged to slide with the weight of a full Redrock rig on top! does it slide easily like that? There is no way my original Glidetrack would support that and still slide smoothly. I'm just watching the Cinevate video university video now.

Dennis,

I'd love to know if the bowl could be made to work with the head from my Miller DS20. Also I'd agree with Chris that it would be good to offer a system that allows the use of a Hoodloupe or Z-finder up to the eye. That said the new little Ikan 5.6 inch LCD would probably work well with your setup.

Dan

Ron and Toenis,

Trust me these kind of rigs work, I use them all the time.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos...ii-photos.html

Dan

Ron -
I've cobbled up similar rigs for my small cameras, maybe wouldn't use them for "everything", but if you want a steady stable shot, it's hard to beat a properly configured shoulder mount with handles spread out a bit in front. I add a monopod/belt support, but basically the same concept.

A rig may not be "pretty", but function over form, and results over aesthetics - if it reliably gets you a solid usable shot, who cares if you look like you lost a battle with the Borg? Not me!

And YES, I've seen these sorts of rigs in use many times... maybe different manufacturers, but the concept works.

What people aren't getting is that other than for prefocusing, an HD monitor does no good. In fact, when camera starts rolling, the signal to the monitor reconfigures, and it all in SD... and depending on default settings on your monitor, may shrink, or show the image in an in an improper aspect ratio. An easier method to maintain focus when you are shooting sholder mount is to utilize something that treats the LCD as monitor.

Chris, I agree that a 16x9 HD monitor is a waste as an on-camera monitor. The two options are a Hoodloupe-type arrangement, or a 4:3 analog SD monitor. An HDMI monitor has the problem of having to re-sync when you hit record, so you miss a couple of seconds of filming - and you have to wait to find out if it's going to work. In the case of my HDMI 1080p PC monitor, it isn't compatible with SD over HDMI, so it doesn't display anything at all. With an analog monitor, it just works.

The LCD is 640x480, so whether you use a loupe or larger external SD monitor is simply a matter of choice. The resolution is the same in either case.

Jon

I have an SD 4:3 I got from LCD4Video, and have have used it, but I still think the LCD gives you best feel for what you are gonna get out the camera.

Chris,

Trust me I know what I'm talking about, as far as I'm aware I was the first person to use the camera with a Hoodloupe, even so I think the small Ikan is a possible solution for some shoulder mount uses. The loupe solution is good but not every run and gun shot is possible with your eye to the loupe. The mainly Redrock rig I'm using gives me the flexibility to do both.

In fact I've been testing it for a while now. Yes it cuts out for a couple of seconds which is very annoying, and yes the aspect ratio is wrong, but it does a reasonable job considering its size and weight in SD with the added advantage of being able to use the HD and enlarge option for prefocus. The HD output before recording seems better than most thanks to the 1024x600 resolution, much better than other same size monitors, and the SD is no worse to use than other SD monitors (althought the aspect is wrong).

Here's a pic of some of the combinations I've been testing, the larger Ikan HDMI LCD and the Lilliput SD monitor are not as useful as the 5.6inch IMHO.

Dan

Dennis,

Btw I thought you guys also had a HDMI monitor in the works, does it exhibit the same aspect ratio and resolution switching delay issues with the 5dmkII that most other monitors seem to?

Dan

Thanks Dan. I understand what you are saying. But in terms of this shoulder mount rig, they need to offset for the 5D. Looked to me like you had your rig set up that way.

I note you rigged the montior on your left side, When I've mounted monitor on configurations I tried, I put it on right side. Does that provide a more confortable process for you ?

Chris,

I agree that an offset rig is the way to go for loupe use, both Redrock and Zacuto now offer ways to do this. I'm sure others will follow.

I find that an LCD on the left makes sense for me.

Dan

Depending on shooting style, having both monitor and loupe make sense. Use the loupe on the shoulder, and the monitor for low-to-the-floor shots and other situations where the LCD position is out of view.

We did indeed display a native 1280x720 pixel HD monitor at NAB...with HDMI IO. This monitor is designed to display video from cameras like the 5D at true HD resolution for focusing purposes. SD is OK for framing, useless for focus. The Cinevate HD monitor is going through a metamorphosis, meaning we're doing something that has never been done in the industry before in terms of on-camera monitors. At this point, we're being a bit quiet about what this is, however shooters with HD cameras are going to love us when we're done.

On the shoulder mount position question, many shooters reconfigure our rear shoulder pad to tilt up 180 degrees from its shoulder position. It then rests on your chest, squarely in front of your face. We are working on a few other carbon tricks as we launch a new simplified rails adapter kit for small HD cameras like the HG21 which don't require an achromat with the Brevis MP.2 adapter. These same components will be useful for those wanting an offset shoulder option for our DSLR rig.

Cheers,
Dennis Wood
www.cinevate.com

Ron, in terms of your request for footage shot using our rig....100% of Stillmotion.ca's 5D MKII footage is currently being shot in one of 3 ways using our gear.

1. 5D MKII on our Proteus rails and cage, mounted to a Steadicam Flyer. The rails and cage add the weight required for the Steadicam Flyer that Patrick uses.

2. Shoulder mounted with pretty much the same exact rig as in our video overview.

3. The same shoulder mounted rig, but mounting on our Pegasus Heavy Lifter which incorporates a standard 100mm bowl. The Pegasus Heavy lifter is designed for 10 to 35lb rigs. Configured correctly, the rig will slide down our rails (with a 35lb load) by itself at a very slight 3 degree tilt.

These three techniques help to address the rolling shutter and stability issues the camera has. Patrick did an excellent technical review in April's EventDV magazine discussing one of their recent shoots in Jamaica. The wedding was shot in combination with the 5D and the aforementioned rigs.

I'm actually going to be ordering a set of hand grips and shoulder pad soon. I don't need to purchase that extra "platform" in order to configure the pad to rest against my chest/hip comfortable do I?

Thanks Dennis!

Dennis, the problem with the 5D MkII is that it doesn't put out HD when filming. You really need to set up your focus marks before recording.

Fortunately, during shot setup, you can magnify to 5x and 10x for setting focus. Given that, SD is all we need for monitoring.

The biggest problem that I've found when looking for SD monitors, though, is that the inexpensive ones don't seem to put out 640x480 or 720x480. They all seem to be listed with 234 lines of vertical resolution. If that's real, then using a hoodloupe or 720p monitor is the way to go.

Just make sure that the monitor can handle 480i video over HDMI, and that it can sync up quickly.

Thanks Jon. We have our latest panel with HDMI enabled in the shop right now so we'll be running through the whole test series again with the new platform. Our monitor uprez's SD signal to native 720x1280 pixel res. Agreed on the focus issue which is why I think our follow focus has been so popular for use on the DSLR. We've got new focus gears coming which further simplify mounting as well as provide over an inch of focus ring "breathing" ... pretty much as a result of all of the SLR lenses we've been working with on the adapter side of things.

Randy, the DSLR kit does include the extra over-shoulder base kit which dramatically increases the flexibility of the rig as it not only provides a 2nd shoulder mount but also allows rearward/downward rails mounting. From our catalog you can see that our 10Ah 12V power unit is mounted behind the shoulder for counterbalance. If you already have our Proteus rails, then you may want to give us a call to bundle the extra bits for you. You'll also see a new cage shortly which is not as tall as the current design, but wider with integrated grips for DSLR use. Both cages are optional parts of the kit designed to provide mount points for microphones, lights, external mixers/recorders and the like. One recent build here in Thunder Bay used the same rig to host a camera and laptop with wireless LAN which was used to live-stream one of the city's United Way fundraising events.

Cheers,
Dennis Wood
www.cinevate.com

I really didn't think we needed to look pretty in order to use good equipment. Cinevate sets a standard for quality, affordable gear. Although it might not look as sexy as Zacuto's or Red Rocks gear I can guarantee that it will out perform it on every level. Having had exclusive conversations with Dennis and his amazing crew it is apparent that every item they release is well thought out and is an industry leader. His follow focus, and slider are prime examples of this. Before you pass judgement on the gear, please take the time to at least use it or ask questions to those who already have. More often than not, what looks fantastic doesn't do shit in the field.

Jason, thanks for that. Precious few have actually been in our facility, hands-on as you have :-)

We have been listening with regard to the shoot rig and have some very cool stuff in the pipe for the 5D. Among these is a new (simply amazing) cage purpose designed for this camera in hand held, shoulder or jib (yes jib!) use as well as an LCD enhancement based on what we've learned from the adapter world. Imagine an LCD twice the size of the stock one but using zero power and viewable with both eyes simultaneously..

I want a big fresnel magnifier on swingarms like in Terry Gilliam movies! If you can't do that, could you make it look like those 1950s-60s scifi binoculars where the eyepieces wrap around the temples? I want to wear the 5D like a giant Geordi LaForge visor!

Seriously, a magnifier with a larger viewing area would be nice as the houdloupe 3 has a very narrow viewpoint. It is nice for $80 but I don't like shooting with my eye socket glued to the camera.

Ask and ye shall receive. The other thing folks have asked for is for a distance and height adjustable offset, the ability to easily configure either left or right shoulders, and the ability to view the viewfinder at an angle other than straight on...like a professional viewfinder. Because Cinevate's rig is based on our Proteus rails system, additions like this are super, super simple. As far as the optics, we've been developing specialized optics for nearly four years now :-) You'll see all of this as standard add-ons to our currently selling rig within the next month.

Cheers,
Dennis.

We just finished testing with a very simply part (add-on) upon request from a few shooters (including this thread) which allows centering the viewfinder in front of the shooter's eyes. The part will be added to Cinevates DSLR shoot kit in about 5 days. Here's what it does:

1. Allows left or right shoulder mounting with offset adjustable from zero to six inches.

2. Tooless removal of the entire shoulder mount component in seconds for folks using either our Pegasus LTS systems, tripod or steadicam.

3. Adds another 3 inches of adjustment of the 5D (at any offset) vertically.

4. Allows locking the rig at any angle, including continuous pivot up or down while maintaining shoulder position. This feature allows releasing and folding the rig up for car travel.

5. Allows rearward rails use at any angle. This permits using our upcoming 12V battery supply as a nearly perfect 5D counterweight tucked against your back.

Best part, it only adds about $45 to the kit :-) A video going over the kit (and we're not showing you the XY kit yet) can be found at Cinevate's Video Univesity. Additionally we're shooting a comprehensive video in a few weeks with the Stillmotion crew showing the 5D being used on Steadicam, Pegasus LTS, tripod and hand held/shoulder mounted..all using the same rig.

Cheers,
Dennis.
www.cinevate.com

That adjustment range makes a lot of sense, Dennis.

I made a homebuilt rig that is fixed for my personal comfort. It took me a few iterations to get it right. I'm amazed at how high and to the left of the shoulder that the camera needs to be so I can stand in a neutral position.

BTW, my rig is tooless too. It just doesn't happen to be adjustable. ;)

Dennis,

That sounds interesting, glad you have taken comments onboard about using the LCD screen with a loupe. Will you offset allow for use of bars, follow focus and mattebox like the Zacuto setups? and if so have you found an easy solution for how to extend a rails quickly for longer lenses when it is mounted in an offset position? So far the only solution for this seems to be the Genus advanced adapter bars, does your rig do something similar?

Dan

I'll show you sneak peak likely mid-week. The thing I like best about the rig is that it can of course be used with zero effect on the mattebox and follow focus out front. I spent about 16 hours shooting with the 5D MKII on the weekend..but unlike my previous two months of use, this was all video. Manual control was the one thing I really needed before shooting video. Aside from steadicam use, I used the rig with one lens (the 24-70mm f2.8L), our Durus FF, Proteus rails/grips, Titan swing-away matte box and full shoulder kit with a 12V brick rails-mounted hugging my back. Btw, Dan our "loupe" solution is not a loupe! You guys will love it.

One of the things that our shooters out there (always pushing us onward!) demand is the ability to go from shoulder, to steadicam, to tripod, to our Pegasus LTS systems and soon, to jibs in seconds, without tools. This means when switching modes that the follow focus, mattebox and cage must remain in place, and the rig must remain balanced with tripod mount point at the "zero" balance point. This rig does that and if you were using quick-release plates on your equipment, the only rig change would be about 5 seconds to remove the shoulder component. On jibs, using our cage for mounting (more on that in a few weeks), you could simply fold the shoulder rig underneath and lock it at the balance point.

Truthfully, I'd still take an EX1 and our adapter using Zeiss glass in 24p over the 5D for filmic imagery. After studying a ton of footage I finally figured out what was bothering me. The 5D MKII has great bokeh with the 24-70 f2.8L clicked in a few stops (as it should!!) however the in-focus portions of the frame have a cold feel to them. Like film emulsion, a 35mm adapter adds a few microns of depth in the focus field that a CCD or CMOS cannot reproduce, regardless of DOF. That said, my next vacation equipment list will only have 4 items: The 5D with the 24-70 f2.8L, Rhode VM, our shoot rig, and a small hand-held stabilizer. It's not often that I get excited about a project but this one has me going :-) More coming mid-week.

Cheers,
Dennis.

Dennis,

I'm intrigued, still not sure you got my question though. Do you have a way to quickly rebalance and re-align a 5DmkII rig when you change from say a 28mm lens to an 80-200mm? while used in the offset position? This is the biggest challenge to offset rigs that I have found as you can't just move the camera further back along the rails to allow for the extra length.

I agree with you that raw 5dmkII footage doesn't have the same 'feel' as adapter footage. I do wonder whether its because the ground glass, like film, is a slight degradation (call it film emulsion depth) of the image which we actually got used to and like. The same is true in stills cameras and the debate still rages between the 'film' look fans and digital purists. Have you tried the Zeiss glass on the 5dmkII yet? it may go some way to closing the gap.

Oddly I just got nominated for an award for the only film I ever shot using a Brevis and an EX-1 before I moved over to the Redrockmicro Encore M2. One World Media :: Shortlist So I guess what I though was not a great investment actually paid off!

Dan

Forgot to add this, the Genus rig works like this.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachmen...-genus1low.jpg

Dan

Dennis, I was pretty good with math in school. 1+1-2. right?

I'm not a fortune teller, but I'm guessing the following guess is something that you have guessed.

One day while goofing around, I took my Cinevate 72mm achromat and held it about 1 1/2 to 2 inches in front of my 5D lcd. Guess what, I can get real nice focus with that image when shooting. Didn't try mounting it, so not sure if my eye as to be in the same position while shooting, but it looked promising.

Now the question to Dennis is, how are you going to mount that bad boy?
Since you made a flip unit for the Brevis, when are you going to make a swivel unit for your new 5D achromat viewer for the 5d?

I'm hoping you find a less expensive achromat to use.

I almost called the other day to see if I could buy a flawed achromat from you.

How's my guess work?

PS, if you haven't thought of this, I'll take the beta unit for free as my consulting fee.