blog about how to record sound on 5dmk2
 

much has been mentioned before in different places. But I wanted newbies to have it all in one short article with two very informative videos to explain...

Philip Bloom Blog Archive How to record sound with the Canon 5dmk2

It's not clear that they ever play the sound from the H2n mics, or from the H2n mic preamps. The only thing that we hear for certain is the H2n recording the line level from a Sennheiser wireless system. If so, that takes the hiss of the mic preamps out of the equation. YMMV if you use low-sensitivity mics without a separate mixer or higher-end preamp.

It was a bit of a commercial, but there's still a lot of good advice in the Zacuto video.

When I read the zoom could record 10 hours I was sure you got it wrong as my h4 can only do about 3 before it dies, but then I saw they have a new improved version. I never regretted getting me a h4 to record additional sound during weddings though i would have been equally satisfied with the cheaper H2 but that came out after I purchased the H4.

I use mine whenever I'm not able to get sound through a wireless clipon mic, I sometimes position it on a tripod in front of a loudspeaker or just on a desk nearby the persons were I need to get their voices recorded. Also live perfomances in a church is ideal to use this thing for.

The video on the blog did appear as a commercial to me as well as they bearly scratch the surface explaining the possibilities or how to use the zoom and it seemed more to show off the possibilities of the Zacuto rigs. But it does give some usable info.

Also the Zoom h4's are known for their problems that they can cause noticeable synching problems as their internal clock, or whatever you call it, does not run at the same speed as a camera. Something you'd have to fix before you take it into your editing software. Don't know if they fixed that with the new version but the Zacuto video didn't mention that at all, once you know the right procedure for it it takes about 5 minutes to get it right but I found it a bit dissapointing that it was not mentioned.

About Pluraleyes to sync up the video/audio for multicam, it did look really simple and effective to use, would I spend 149 dollar for something that would take me 2 minutes to do myself, and that just once in the beginning of a project? I wouldn't but if time would be that critical then it is I guess a good investment.

I have an H2 & the battery life with regular alkaline batteries is around 3 hours but with the new Lithium batteries 10 hours is possible. I have been very happy with the sound quality of the H2 but it is a bit plastic & flimsy & would benefit from a better display & proper buttons for controls. However for the price it is great & I am happy that they did not compromise the sound quality to get to that low price point.

I believe that the reason that they did not mention this was because they are using the H4"n" which does not have the audio drift problems of the H4. You do, however, have to change the speed to 99.9 when recording at 48Khz since the 5DmkII records at 44.1Khz. It really is as easy as they show to sync audio using the H4n. I picked one up a few weeks ago and couldn't be happier. I always pride myself on recording clean audio and with this external recorder, and a good set of wireless lav mics, I am truly amazed every time I sit down to edit.

The audio sampling rate has nothing to do with it. If you slow your video down from 30.00 to 29.97fps (avoiding dropped frames on NTSC-based systems), then you also need to slow the audio down by 0.1%. If you don't slow the video, there's no need to slow the audio. (Real time is still real time.)

Phil,

Great tip about Pluraleyes, Its exactly the kind of thing I've been looking. I'm going to try it asap.

As for the recorder I ended up spending a little more and getting the Sony PCM-D50 instead of the Zoom H4n. I looked at both in the shop side by side and found the Sony's better construction and the proper levels knob to be more useful than the extra XLR inputs of the Zoom. I've also read in multiple reviews that the new Zoom still has average quality XLR inputs especially when using the kind of phantom powered mics I have so I'd end up running a seperate mixer most of the time anyway, have you tested this yourself? If that isn't the case I might be tempted to get a H4n as a backup.

Dan

excellent audio info for MKII
 

Great post, Phi, very clear and informative videos. I've already got the Zoom H4z and I'm really tempted by Pluraleyes.

I've done film in the past so a double-system is not that big a deal for me. It actually took me a little while to get used to recording both audio and video to a single camera.

Dan,

I've only had limited experience with the Zoom H4N so far, but so far its internal mics do sound better than the XLR connected to an Oktava MK012.

That being said, to my untrained ear, the quality of Zoom's sound is excellent. I'm thinking of connecting IT to the boom pole on my next project rather than the Oktava.

Greg,

Thanks for that info, I'd love to know what Phil makes of the Zoom XLRs too.

I've been blown away with the quality of the Sony PCM-D50 internal mics and was thinking about doing a similar thing as you with a boom pole in the future.

In fact the great thing about both recorders is that they have a tripod mounting hole on the back.

Dan

Personally, I'm thinking of getting a Sound Devices MM-1 (one channel preamp with headphone output) or the MP-1 (without phone out). Street cost new is $350 or $300, respectively. I could then patch that into the 5D with a pilot tone in the other channel, or into most any recorder. So far, I haven't needed more than mono field audio anyway.

The advantage is that I'd have a professional preamp in an indestructible package that would hold its value. Next would come mic upgrades. The recorder is third in line.

As long as you feed a nice, hot, clean signal to your recorder/camera, theoretically, the quality of the recorder isn't as important. It's kind of like using a cheap camera - they're terrible in low light, but can do a decent job with lots of light and good glass.

Anyone have a chance to compare the Zoom H4N and Sony PCM-D50 with the Fostex FR-2LE or Edirol R-44?

Edirol R-44 seems to be faster than Zoom H4n in terms of menu button response time.
We are getting a Edirol R-44 with a whole ENG bag for blooming sound.

Are these duel systems more preferable to the Beachtek that's coming out for the 5DM2?

Matthew,

I think it all depends on your type of work. For me doing run and gun news and features the Beachtek will make life much easier. For ultimate quality where you have the time dual sound will always win, with most of these recorders you can use much higher bitrates if you want to and they have better controls like too.

Money no object I would have a Beachtek, a top of the line Sound Devices mixer coupled and a high end audio recorder.

Dan

And with a mixer you can do both, feed a recorder and the camera... at least on my little Eng44.

Chris,

Does your sign mixer output mic level output to the 5dmkII? and if so what is the quality like? Currently I'm having to PAD the output of my Sound Devices MixPre.

thanks

Dan

Dan, If money were no object, which recorder would you go with?

Money no object, probably this one The 788T Portable, Multi-Track Audio Recorder with Time Code | Sound Devices, LLC

Not exactly camera mountable though.

Dan

FYI - the Beachtek is available to order now from here Beachtek | DXA-5D DUAL XLR ADPTR f/EOS 5D MII/48V | DXA-5D | B&H

Dan

Unfortunately, it seems that the Beachtek has passive audio circuitry, rather than a low noise active preamp. I assume that it would work okay for high-sensitivity mics, but for low-output mics, we'd have to turn up the gain on the 5D preamps (by turning down the pilot signal), which could lead to hiss.

Currently, with my AT815b, I'm not happy with the noise into the M-Audio MicroTrack II. I'd be surprised if the 5D preamps are any better.

I'm looking forward to reading some real-world tests before the Mark Free firmware makes the pilot tone solution obsolete...

Jon,

You are correct about the Beachtek's passive audio circuitry but so far I've had a high level of success with the radio mics and Sanken CS-1 shotgun on the 5dmkII, using my older Beachtek DXA-6 and a 1khz tone generator.

5dmkII with 1khz tone real world demo on Vimeo

As you say I think careful mic matching will be essential, high sensitivity mics should be fine.

Dan

Interesting - from the specs on both devices, the mic noise should predominate over the preamp noise.

However, looking more closely, I see the AT815b has a somewhat unusually high output impedance, and actually so does the MicroTrack (for a mic input).

I wonder if the AT815b is a transformer output mic? Somewhat skimpy specs do not say. If this were mine, I might try something like this:

Shure - A15BT Bridging Transformer

set to the 600:7500 position to get a better impedance match, more gain, and to improve the S/N by 6-10 db. Maybe even the higher gain setting would work.

Of course the battery would need to be used since a transformer will not pass the phantom power.

The A15BT Bridging Transformer is a pretty handy problem solver to have around for other uses as well.

Possibly the problem is not so much the preamp as that (maybe) the mic is designed to work into a different kind of load (a transformer).

Transformer input mic preamps used to be the norm in broadcast environments due to their superior noise cancellation.

I notice the new version of this mic now has a lower (and more common) output impedance.

Microphones are one of the few remaining places in audio where impedance matching is still important.

-Mike

!!!
 

How does one sync the H2 with the canon 5D footage?
I have done a search on this forum and am still at a loss

I've used the mic into my Mackie board and with a Panasonic GS500 though a transformer, and never had much problem with hiss (not that it was zero, but it is low enough to be swamped by ambient sounds. It wasn't hard to cover with background music, foley, etc.) Straight into the MicroTrack II, the hiss is horrible and requires noise reduction. This cost me way too much time in post, and the end result, while not bad, wasn't great either.

Anyway, I'm now of the mind that I want to feed my mic into a nice preamp, boost the signal, and feed it into the recorder/camera with minimal gain. I might change cameras and recorders over time, but a good battery-powered preamp can potentially outlast them all.

This approach nearly takes the camera/recorder preamp out of the equation. Of course, we're still left with the anti-aliasing filter, A/D quality, clock stability, bit depth, and possible encoding (if not PCM), so the recorder still matters. But in my experience, the camera/recorder preamp is the nail that it sticking up the furthest - by a lot.

I've done it manually (with the MicroTrack II, rather than the H2, but it's similar.) Just match the H2 waveform with the waveform from the 5D's internal mic.

For Final Cut, there's some software that can help to this automatically, but I'm a Vegas user on a PC.

One problem is that the clock in the H2 isn't very accurate, so time can drift between the sources. On Vegas, I would sync up the sound at the start of a clip, and then stretch/squeeze the audio clip to sync up a sound at the end of the clip. In Vegas, you hold the CTRL key, grab the end of the audio clip and move it left or right, until the waveforms match. For short clips (like we do) this isn't needed. If you record a long speech, definitely sync both the start and the end.

BTW, sync doesn't need to be perfect. Anything within 10ms is excellent, and within 40ms is tolerable.

Also, I've tested the 5D for audio latency, and it looks to be sync'd nearly perfectly to the video. No compensation is needed on your part.

Well, I would agree that is the best solution - the preamps in the Microtrack are not exactly the best.

I was just trying to figure out why that particular mic and preamp were getting along so very poorly.

I think it is a good example of the old Murphy's Law corollary about 'tolerances will always add - the same direction'. ;-)

-Mike

This is very interesting to me. I own the H4n, but have not been very impressed with the XLR quality. Yesterday I was using the Sony ECM-44B lav and I just couldn't get the levels high enough. I had to keep asking the interviewee to talk louder.

I don't know anything about these "preamp" devices. Would I use this with my H4n, and would it help boost the levels?

That's exactly right. For instance, the juicedLink preamps have high, medium, and low gain settings, as well as a knob for each channel. Assuming that the circuit is clean (I receive mine tomorrow), you can boost the signal without adding any appreciable noise.

There are two approaches for the outputs. Some preamps put out line levels, and others put out mic levels, which are much lower. The juicedLink preamps have a mic/line switch, so it will work either way. [EDIT: The last sentence was incorrect. The mic/line switches are for the inputs, not the outputs. The output is always at mic level.] If you use a SoundDevices mixer, you would need to pad down the output when feeding a mic input (like on the 5D2.)

The juicedLink preamps target camcorders, so the output is a stereo 1/8-inch jack. It's not clear if the H4n's 1/8-inch input is stereo or not. You might need to get a 1/8-inch to dual 1/4" splitter. [EDIT: The H4n 1/8-inch mic inputs are indeed stereo. Just plug the juicedLink in directly.]

I plan to set mine up for two configurations: to the MicroTrackII and to the 5D2. The advantage of the Microtrack is that our audio guy can roam unplugged. For a long distance shoot, I could even have the talent carry the MicroTrackII and the preamp, rather than use a wireless connection. For one-person shoots, being able to connect directly to the 5D2 will be excellent.

Actually, the juicedLink will potentially let us use even cheaper recorders that don't have XLRs or phantom power features. Personally, I think the H4n and MicroTrackII are in a no-man's-land - sure they support XLR mics, but if they don't do it cleanly, they what's the point?

Anyway, I look forward to testing it. I'll post the results...

Jon:

H4N 3.5mm jack is stereo. I used it with my stereo Sony MCS-907 two weeks ago to record live music. Definitely stereo.

Dan

Yes Dan, it does output at mic level. In fact we tried at lineblevel at one point and ended up creating some noise probably due to that issue

I am still trying to wrap my brain around this setup. So, I have my Sony ECM-44B lav. I connect the XLR of the Sony lav to the Juicedlink. From the Juicedlink I use a cable like this to connect to my Zoom H4n.

Is this right? And this setup will help boost the audio levels feeding into the H4n?

Just to clarify, I'm wanting to take the 5DM2 out of the audio equation. I'm not interested in capturing audio with the 5DM2.

The juicedLink includes a 9-inch cable (1/8-inch to 1/8-inch) that would connect directly to the H4n, so the only cable you need is the XLR cable from the lav.

And, yes, the setup should boost the audio cleanly into the H4n. I should receive mine tonight and will test it with the MicroTrackII...

I for one, believe you can still put good sound into the 5D if we can gain control of AGC. To that end, I received a Juiced Link CX231 yesterday. I was rigging my system with a new follow focus and set of rails, and mounted it in the mix. Late in the evening, I started an impromtu test. So this is all just impression more than scientific testing.

First, let me say that the CX231 does not promise to resolve the AGC levels issue on the 5D. What I can see happening is Hudson or others cracking the AGC control, giving us gain adjustment as needed on the camera. In the meantime, if I want to get best sound into camera-- as many will want to do, the CX231 is a valuable tool.

Shooting with my Sennheiser ME-66, directly to the Juiced link seemed quieter in terms of background noise than my Beachtek DX4-A. This makes perfect sence because the Juiced Link has powered preamps on board. In fact, I believe the sound is similar to running my mic through my ENG44 and into the 5D.

I also ran my high frequency silent test tone trick (using an mp3 file generated tone from Audacity at 15400 hz) into one side of the CX231 through my IRiver 895 player, and of course the ME66 in the other side. This trick freezes the gain, depending on levels you have the volume set to. With the gain frozen, the mic input has is very clean and back ground noise is very low. Again, at first blush, it seem as clean as when I did a similar set up with the ENG44. This set up should work fine for shooting one man single mic operation, until we are given gain control on the 5D MKII. There was some concern Mic levels couldn't get high enough, with gain disabled on the 5D, but I was actually able to distort the mic sound track, so I don't think that is an issue.


I did try setting both the IRiver input and the Mic input on center with the Pan switches, but that created a warbling effect and ticking noise that made that unusable.

Monitoring is still an issue with this set up. What I want to be able to do at minimum, is split the output from the CX231, and sending signal unchanged to the Camera, while using the other side of the split to act as monitor. At the suggestiong of Robert Rozak from Juiced Link, I am going to try this product:

Headphone Amplifier | Headphone Amp | Audio Amplifier | Audio Splitter by Boostaroo

I hope to be able to split of of the output from CX231 while avoiding interference with the camera input.

Hopefully, the HUDSON project, which has already succeeded in adding a meter, and disabling the AG, will also provide monitoring through the AV port, in the same way that Canon does with the HV20, but we will have to make do until then.

I will report back with more testing of the CX231 and this camera combo.

Excellent summary, Chris! I expect to receive my preamp today and expect to repeat your results using an iPod shuffle.

I'm also hoping that Tramm will be able to enable the headphone output, assuming the manual control firmware doesn't already provide that feature - and manual gain.

Thanks. I will be interested to hear your thoughts on the juiceLink + MicroTrackII combination.

I just had my H4N arrive a few minutes ago. I was a music producer (still am) long before I got into film and after talking with a couple of colleagues I figured "for $350 I've got to have one".

So I'm taking it into my main studio tonight to track acoustic guitar for a commercial piece and I'm going to try it on a VO track for a TV piece as well.

This is my 48 track room, acoustically balanced with 3 monitoring systems so I'll have a pretty good sense tomorrow of it's transparency, noise level and mic quality. I'll track the VO directly in x/y and with a Neumann U87 through the H4N pre as well as my Neve strip.

Obviously I don't expect it to match them, but would be a lot more fun and versatile than a Nagra with the 5DII. I like going small and simple when I can.

Jim,

I'm especially interested to get your read on the H4n noise floor with less-than-sensitive mics. I bought the MicroTrackII, and I'm less than thrilled with its noise floor. Hopefully, the juicedLink will help make it shine.

It regards to Plural Eyes for Vegas and maybe as a stand alone app.

On P. Blooms Blog, there is a link to Plural Eyes. It is a FCP plug in.

I have been trying to sync sound from a XHA1 and sometimes the ZoomH4 and replace sound on my 5D. I made a fake 8 digit time code that I blew up and put on a 13" macbook with 2 frame beeps every 2 seconds. Works OK for syncing on the time line, but still way too time consuming. Was going to buy a netbook just for an electronic clapboard with timecode and beeps until I saw the Plural Eyes promo.

I may try the single channel trick into the 5D with audio coming out of the Zoom, but not sure if I want to give up a channel. I think Hudson's hack will work assuming his code works on next weeks firmware upgrade.

I'd be OK carrying the Zoom around with the camera and using a program like Plural eyes or a stand alone app.


I posted the following over on the Vegas Forum, this is copied from one of my post.

Regarding Plural Eyes & Vegas.

"I emailed the company and got a reply saying there were hard at work on getting it to work with Vegas.

I asked him about maybe making a stand alone version. I currently take 10-20 5D Mark II clips (*.mov) files and have them rewritten into one file with chapter marks. This is a non destructive rewrite and from what I understand they can redo audio without messing with re-encoding the video.

Anyway, it's a great way to archive and find stuff in a hurry.

I suggested it would be great if we could tag or list a bunch of .mov files and then point to a master audio file and replace the audio with the master audio when it writes on a single file with all the clips.

His response was he liked the idea and would look into it. My guessing is can probably accomplish this pretty easily as he already has the code to compare the audio waveforms then sync them up.

I watched a demo today with a fellow using 6 cameras. The syncing process was real quick.

Keeping my fingers crossed that we will see it in Vegas sooner than later."

After 24p and PAL, headphone monitoring has to be one of the most requested features. It remains to be seen if the AK4646 is wired up to be able to drive the A/V jack while recording. The other problem with using the A/V jack is that the lv_task() is hard wired to switch to composite video output when it is plugged in, so there will need to be some modifications made there to prevent it from disabling the internal LCD when headphones are used.

Tramm:

Sounds a bit like a tough request, but as you say, one of the more important issue we are dealing with. With the AV port already cause interference with the sound recording with a cord plugged in, if it could be switch to sound out only for headphones, that might remedy the interference I had to deal with from that jack....