New Firmware - usability under changing light conditions

Sean Lander · May 27th, 2009, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

So Sean,

When filming a documentary, and walking from indoors to outdoors, what knob would you grab first? Aperture? Shutter?

If I was doing a doco with this camera (Which I wouldn't) I would dial in more or less light using the aperture. Granted that adding more ISO is more subtle to what we have been used to with video cameras though. So it might be a whole new way of doing things.

Jon Fairhurst · May 28th, 2009, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Lander

If I was doing a doco with this camera (Which I wouldn't)

I have a brave friend who plans to do exactly that. He really wants the shallow DOF artistic look.

I think it will work though. He'll do interviews in controlled situations and create an impression of the subject matter for his B-roll.

The 5D2 would be the wrong camera for making a linear, factual document, but could be perfect for creating an impression about a person, place or idea.

And, yeah, if ISO control isn't available, aperture would be my next choice for bridging the indoors/outdoors gap.

Dylan Couper · May 28th, 2009, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek Weiss

It seems it would be smoother and less noticeable to adjust the iris via the ND filter vs. a hard jump by changing ISO.

a) what ND filter?

b) adjusting a variable ND filter requires touching the lens barrel, and since we're talking specifically about shooting live in this thread, it's near impossible to diddle around with the end of a lens barrel of any significant length on the 5D2 and not have that visible in your footage as your frame jumps around... The 5D2 is a very unstable platform for handheld shooting, unlike "real-er" video cameras. :)

Though I'd usually take the aperture for light control side, the 5D2 has such a range of clean ISO that I'd consider iso on the fly (at least 100-800) a viable option.

Derek Weiss · May 28th, 2009, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylan Couper

a) what ND filter?

b) adjusting a variable ND filter requires touching the lens barrel, and since we're talking specifically about shooting live in this thread, it's near impossible to diddle around with the end of a lens barrel of any significant length on the 5D2 and not have that visible in your footage as your frame jumps around... The 5D2 is a very unstable platform for handheld shooting, unlike "real-er" video cameras. :)

Though I'd usually take the aperture for light control side, the 5D2 has such a range of clean ISO that I'd consider iso on the fly (at least 100-800) a viable option.

Singh-Ray 8 Stop Vari-ND, it's super smooth if you haven't used one.

In my opinion, ISO changes during recording are too obvious and harsh compared to spinning a vari-ND filter that has a smooth transition.

Jon Fairhurst · May 28th, 2009, 10:28 AM

One problem with the ND approach is that it loses light, even when "fully" transparent. If you're shooting in a moderately lit interior and walk outside, it would work well. If the interior is on the dark side, one might be better off ditching the variable ND in order to minimize gain and noise.

That said, in more subtle light changes, the variable ND is clearly the smoothest solution - and even works with today's firmware...

Jim Giberti · May 28th, 2009, 11:21 AM

No offense but why are we talking about reinventing the wheel just because we now have the control that we've always had shooting film and video?

You choose your ISO/ASA for each scene, If it's too bright for the aperture setting you want for the composition then you add an ND filter (or if it's a video camera you use the 1 or 2 ND button) you shoot. Shutter speed in film and video NEVER changes scene to scene unless you're going for a special look.

Nothing's changed if you've been doing this stuff. Lock your shutter at 180 degrees, set as low an ISO as possible (who shoots higher gain than 0 with their video camera unless necessary?) set your aperture for exposure. That's how it's always been done. And if you want specific DOF that lighting won't accommodate then, of course, the answer is also industry standard, choose the appropriate level of ND or get a variable one.

Jim Giberti · May 28th, 2009, 11:59 AM

Another quick thought about light control.
I was about to get the Singh Ray but opted not to because I anticipated the firmware upgrade and didn't want to spend nearly $400. Instead I got two NDs - 0.9 and 1.8.
If you're in bright conditions, these act pretty much like a typical two stage internal video ND filter.

The fact is, you don't need the expense of the variable ND now that Manual control is here. Because the 5DII looks so good anywhere from 100 ISO to 400 or more, if the light is bright and you want an open aperture, you can put on a 1.8 (or stack the two if it's noon on a snowy mountain and you want perfect bokeh on your 85mm 1.2).

Now you've changed the light as you would with fixed stage video NDs. The difference is you can now use the 5DII's clean ISO to dial back the ideal lighting without the need for the expensive Singh Ray.
One to three stops above 100 ISO would be all you'd ever need and that will still be exceptionally clean and it gives much finer control than with a typical built in video ND system.

Again, you do this before the scene, not changing it as you go.

Jon Fairhurst · May 28th, 2009, 12:04 PM

Jim, while that's true for narrative film, it's not necessarily true for documentaries, sports or ENG.

For instance, the camera follows the marathon runners down the road and into the stadium. Or the cameras follow the football player from the tunnel onto the field. Or you follow the person who stormed off during the interview into the street.

At the recent Monaco GP, the car-mounted cameras had to adjust each lap from the tunnel to the blinding sunlight. I think they used variable iris and maybe gain as well. The shutter looked the same. The tunnel was a bit noisy. The cameras clearly have wide lenses and small sensors, so the DOF doesn't change much anyway. They clearly have to do something. When they approach the tunnel entrance, it's black, and when they approach the exit, the levels are clipped and blown out - even though the tunnel is lined with large lights.

Olof Ekbergh · May 28th, 2009, 01:25 PM

Those POW (lipstick) cams are generally auto iris or even auto everything.

I do ride the iris sometimes in an outdoor interview situation with changing cloud cover.

Unless I take the time to set up a heavy scrim above the talent and a couple HMI's on the talent, witch is the best outdoor setup in my opinion.

Jim Giberti · May 28th, 2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

Jim, while that's true for narrative film, it's not necessarily true for documentaries, sports or ENG.

For instance, the camera follows the marathon runners down the road and into the stadium. Or the cameras follow the football player from the tunnel onto the field. Or you follow the person who stormed off during the interview into the street.

At the recent Monaco GP, the car-mounted cameras had to adjust each lap from the tunnel to the blinding sunlight. I think they used variable iris and maybe gain as well. The shutter looked the same. The tunnel was a bit noisy. The cameras clearly have wide lenses and small sensors, so the DOF doesn't change much anyway. They clearly have to do something. When they approach the tunnel entrance, it's black, and when they approach the exit, the levels are clipped and blown out - even though the tunnel is lined with large lights.

Not to be contentious Jon but you're talking about the extreme examples that would require the same type of special attention no matter what medium you're shooting with.

I do both narrative, doc and commercial work and two of my most recent docs were about as challenging as you get in regard to your point. One was for the Torino Winter Olympics and the other for the celebration of the 1980 "Miracle Games".

In both instances I followed the top athletes for weeks, in every discipline from bobsled courses to 120 meter ski jumps, downhill, speed skating, biathlon, etc., under the most demanding and variable conditions imaginable and never pulled iris or changed shutter speeds or gain.

It was all done with aperture and NDs.

Jon Fairhurst · May 28th, 2009, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Giberti

...under the most demanding and variable conditions imaginable and never pulled iris or changed shutter speeds or gain.

It was all done with aperture and NDs.

Jim, I'm confused.

You wrote that you didn't pull iris, but then you wrote that it was done with aperture (and NDs). I'm also not trying to be contentious; I'm just trying to understand how you bridged extreme lighting differences when that occurred in a single shot.

I was shooting video of a car in a barn the other day. Facing into the barn vs. facing out of the barn, the exposure was completely different. For narrative work, I'd control the shot as needed, but had I followed the owner as he spoke and walked around the car, I'd have to change something during the scene. I wasn't able to find a compromise that worked acceptably in both conditions.

Of course, in post, I could pop in some B-roll during the transition, and nobody would be the wiser. I could keep the continuity of the audio, and show the single take as two independent shots.

Anyway, I'm not trying to assert anything, other than I'm not sure how to best solve the problem of extreme differences in lighting in a single take - including when you set up for one lighting condition and things change unexpectedly.

Olof Ekbergh · May 28th, 2009, 03:24 PM

Well we will find out what you can do next week.

Maybe this camera will lead to new ways of working.

I have always used ND and Polarizer filters in conjunction with iris to control light.

Only iris is usually changed while rolling. Some cameras will over and under crank, and you can change that as you are rolling. Though my EX3 can not change frame-rate while rolling.

If you could change shutter and iso as you are rolling maybe that is a new way for special effects.

I personally don't see the need for variable ND, never had one. I have been shooting professionally since the early 70's. Stills, film and video.

Marcus Marchesseault · May 28th, 2009, 03:27 PM

The vast change in DOF is something those of us used to small-chip video cameras must address. My guess is that as long as there is enough light to stop the iris down to f5.6 indoors that the shift to f11 outdoors with auto ISO should be fine. If the indoor shot requires f2 at 800iso and the outdoor is f8 at 200iso then the image change will be too dramatic. I just wish there was an iso limiter so that it would never go above 1000iso where the grain is really noticable. Perhaps that will be in the 5D mark free firmware.

I think auto-iso will be okay as long as it doesn't creep up too high. Perhaps manual iris with auto-iso limited to iso800 might work? It would be nicer if the auto-exposure adjustment wheel wasn't so noisy or I would just ride that and adjust aperture to suit my DOF tastes.

Jim Giberti · May 28th, 2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

Jim, I'm confused.>>

Don't be Jon <g>.

<<You wrote that you didn't pull iris, but then you wrote that it was done with aperture (and NDs). >>

I didn't mean to sound so dogmatic. 99% of the time we set the aperture, didn't pull it.
I was making a general statement about the new manual 5dII.

<<I'm also not trying to be contentious; I'm just trying to understand how you bridged extreme lighting differences when that occurred in a single shot.>>

We didn't adjust the camera on the fly except in the most extreme situations. We did what felt/looked right..let the natural occurrence of changing light occur as it does some times.

<<I was shooting video of a car in a barn the other day. Facing into the barn vs. facing out of the barn, the exposure was completely different. For narrative work, I'd control the shot as needed, but had I followed the owner as he spoke and walked around the car, I'd have to change something during the scene. I wasn't able to find a compromise that worked acceptably in both conditions.>>

For that I would never use a fixed aperture lens as all the Canons and Nikons we're talking about are - it would look choppy and kludgy. For that I had a camera with the 14x manual lens and ND on the front with the fully variable aperture that could be pulled with the right touch.

<<Of course, in post, I could pop in some B-roll during the transition, and nobody would be the wiser. I could keep the continuity of the audio, and show the single take as two independent shots.>>

How it's done probably more often than not.

<<Anyway, I'm not trying to assert anything, other than I'm not sure how to best solve the problem of extreme differences in lighting in a single take - including when you set up for one lighting condition and things change unexpectedly.

Obviously controlling light is the goal of most shooting whether adjusting angles and camera cuts in uncontrollable light or using silks, fill etc., where you can. Iris pulls are definitely doable when necessary, but need a continuous aperture like I described and a bit of finesse.

Andrew Clark · May 28th, 2009, 03:55 PM

According to the DP Review site, users will be able to utilize the following:

* Full aperture selection
* ISO speed: Auto, 100 – 6400 and H1
* Shutter speed: 1/30th – 1/4000th second

In other words, you can set your Av, Tv, and place the ISO on Auto to handle the changing lighting conditions...if one so desires.

Canon announces update for EOS 5D Mark II: Digital Photography Review

May 28th, 2009, 10:28 AM	#20
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	One problem with the ND approach is that it loses light, even when "fully" transparent. If you're shooting in a moderately lit interior and walk outside, it would work well. If the interior is on the dark side, one might be better off ditching the variable ND in order to minimize gain and noise. That said, in more subtle light changes, the variable ND is clearly the smoothest solution - and even works with today's firmware... __________________ Jon Fairhurst

May 28th, 2009, 12:04 PM	#23
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Jim, while that's true for narrative film, it's not necessarily true for documentaries, sports or ENG. For instance, the camera follows the marathon runners down the road and into the stadium. Or the cameras follow the football player from the tunnel onto the field. Or you follow the person who stormed off during the interview into the street. At the recent Monaco GP, the car-mounted cameras had to adjust each lap from the tunnel to the blinding sunlight. I think they used variable iris and maybe gain as well. The shutter looked the same. The tunnel was a bit noisy. The cameras clearly have wide lenses and small sensors, so the DOF doesn't change much anyway. They clearly have to do something. When they approach the tunnel entrance, it's black, and when they approach the exit, the levels are clipped and blown out - even though the tunnel is lined with large lights. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

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May 28th, 2009, 11:21 AM	#21
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	No offense but why are we talking about reinventing the wheel just because we now have the control that we've always had shooting film and video? You choose your ISO/ASA for each scene, If it's too bright for the aperture setting you want for the composition then you add an ND filter (or if it's a video camera you use the 1 or 2 ND button) you shoot. Shutter speed in film and video NEVER changes scene to scene unless you're going for a special look. Nothing's changed if you've been doing this stuff. Lock your shutter at 180 degrees, set as low an ISO as possible (who shoots higher gain than 0 with their video camera unless necessary?) set your aperture for exposure. That's how it's always been done. And if you want specific DOF that lighting won't accommodate then, of course, the answer is also industry standard, choose the appropriate level of ND or get a variable one.

May 28th, 2009, 11:59 AM	#22
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	Another quick thought about light control. I was about to get the Singh Ray but opted not to because I anticipated the firmware upgrade and didn't want to spend nearly $400. Instead I got two NDs - 0.9 and 1.8. If you're in bright conditions, these act pretty much like a typical two stage internal video ND filter. The fact is, you don't need the expense of the variable ND now that Manual control is here. Because the 5DII looks so good anywhere from 100 ISO to 400 or more, if the light is bright and you want an open aperture, you can put on a 1.8 (or stack the two if it's noon on a snowy mountain and you want perfect bokeh on your 85mm 1.2). Now you've changed the light as you would with fixed stage video NDs. The difference is you can now use the 5DII's clean ISO to dial back the ideal lighting without the need for the expensive Singh Ray. One to three stops above 100 ISO would be all you'd ever need and that will still be exceptionally clean and it gives much finer control than with a typical built in video ND system. Again, you do this before the scene, not changing it as you go.

May 28th, 2009, 01:25 PM	#24
Olof Ekbergh Sponsor: Westside AV Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Mount Washington Valley, NH, USA Posts: 1,365	Those POW (lipstick) cams are generally auto iris or even auto everything. I do ride the iris sometimes in an outdoor interview situation with changing cloud cover. Unless I take the time to set up a heavy scrim above the talent and a couple HMI's on the talent, witch is the best outdoor setup in my opinion.

May 28th, 2009, 03:24 PM	#27
Olof Ekbergh Sponsor: Westside AV Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Mount Washington Valley, NH, USA Posts: 1,365	Well we will find out what you can do next week. Maybe this camera will lead to new ways of working. I have always used ND and Polarizer filters in conjunction with iris to control light. Only iris is usually changed while rolling. Some cameras will over and under crank, and you can change that as you are rolling. Though my EX3 can not change frame-rate while rolling. If you could change shutter and iso as you are rolling maybe that is a new way for special effects. I personally don't see the need for variable ND, never had one. I have been shooting professionally since the early 70's. Stills, film and video.

May 28th, 2009, 03:27 PM	#28
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	The vast change in DOF is something those of us used to small-chip video cameras must address. My guess is that as long as there is enough light to stop the iris down to f5.6 indoors that the shift to f11 outdoors with auto ISO should be fine. If the indoor shot requires f2 at 800iso and the outdoor is f8 at 200iso then the image change will be too dramatic. I just wish there was an iso limiter so that it would never go above 1000iso where the grain is really noticable. Perhaps that will be in the 5D mark free firmware. I think auto-iso will be okay as long as it doesn't creep up too high. Perhaps manual iris with auto-iso limited to iso800 might work? It would be nicer if the auto-exposure adjustment wheel wasn't so noisy or I would just ride that and adjust aperture to suit my DOF tastes.

May 28th, 2009, 03:55 PM	#30
Andrew Clark Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 477	According to the DP Review site, users will be able to utilize the following: * Full aperture selection * ISO speed: Auto, 100 – 6400 and H1 * Shutter speed: 1/30th – 1/4000th second In other words, you can set your Av, Tv, and place the ISO on Auto to handle the changing lighting conditions...if one so desires. Canon announces update for EOS 5D Mark II: Digital Photography Review