A shot in the dark

Perrone Ford · October 27th, 2009, 08:12 AM

Ok, I am taking a shot in the dark here and hoping someone can save me some time.

Has anyone made a table of illumination for the 5Dm2 yet? I use this one for my other work:

Table of Exposure for Motion Picture film stock

But because of the 30fps of the 5D, there is just enough of a change, especially at higher stops to keep this unusable. Around T2-T4 it's close enough so I am living with just that one.

Or if anyone has a formula to calculate these if I know a value for certain, I can make my own chart in excel.

Thanks in advance.

Perrone Ford · October 27th, 2009, 05:32 PM

I guess no one had one... so I made one.

Table of Illumination in Footcandles for 30 fps 1/60 shutter

F-Stop 1.4 2 2.8 4 5.6 8 11 16
Exposure Index

64 45 90 180 360 720 1440 2880 5760
100 30 60 120 240 480 960 1920 3840
125 22.5 45 90 180 360 720 1440 2880
160 20 40 80 160 320 640 1280 2560
200 15 30 60 120 240 480 960 1920
250 11.25 22.5 45 90 180 360 720 1440
320 10 20 40 80 160 320 640 1280
400 7.5 15 30 60 120 240 480 960
500 5.625 11.25 22.5 45 90 180 360 720
640 5 10 20 40 80 160 320 640

Louis Maddalena · October 28th, 2009, 01:05 AM

How do you read this?

Leo Versola · November 24th, 2009, 11:44 AM

Hey Perrone,

If you've got an iPhone, there's an app (kinda pricey but fantastic) called 'pCAM' that has an exposure calculator.

Comparing pCAM to your table, you're pretty close but there's about a 5 to 10% variance in the results...

Cheers,

EDIT: Did some more digging around and found this: http://www.panavision.co.uk/services...calculator.asp

Also, I re-engineered the numbers and here's the formula:

Illumination in Footcandles = (360 x FPS x (2500 / 48) x T-Stop^2) / (Exposure Index x Shutter Angle x 2)

Ran the numbers and they match what I'm getting in pCAM...

Cheers again,

Perrone Ford · November 24th, 2009, 12:51 PM

Thanks Leo! I'll build a new spreadsheet based off the calculations.

Richard Gooderick · November 24th, 2009, 01:31 PM

I don't have a clue what this is about.

Perrone Ford · November 24th, 2009, 01:34 PM

That's alright.

Norm Rehm · November 24th, 2009, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

That's alright.

That was helpful!

Perrone Ford · November 24th, 2009, 04:34 PM

If there is no question asked, then I am not sure how I am supposed to "be helpful".

So let's see.

A table of illumination is a guide that says for a given ISO and a given shutter speed, this is the amount of light needed to make a proper exposure. Or working in reverse, if you have this much light, and you are using this shutter speed, this is the ISO setting that would be correct.

Since film-derived ISO charts usually operate on the assumption of a 1/48 shutter, they are not correct for the 5D which has a 1/60 shutter by default. So the table I derived was one in which we be correct for the different shutter speed.

Of course, if you have no means to measure (or calculate) the light then this is merely academic.

Leo Versola · November 24th, 2009, 04:38 PM

Basically, it's a table that lists the number of footcandles of light necessary to obtain proper exposure at various f-stops and ASA's.

Below that number and you'll have underexposure, above it and you'll have overexposure. Used in conjunction with a light meter, it can help you when setting up lighting environments, controlling contrast ratios to fit within the dynamic range of your camera, etc.

Hope that helps...

Cheers,

Richard Gooderick · November 24th, 2009, 04:49 PM

Thanks for the explanation guys.
In practice, does this mean that you are using a light meter with your 5Dmk2?

Perrone Ford · November 24th, 2009, 04:54 PM

That's ALL I've use with the 5D. Works beautifully.

Richard Gooderick · November 24th, 2009, 04:55 PM

Thanks Perrone
Well, I might give that a go. Any tips? I've never used an external light meter before.

Perrone Ford · November 24th, 2009, 05:05 PM

Hmm tips...

1. TEST!! I had to blindly use the meter on our 5D shoot, but I was running back to the NLE after every setup to test the look. The production monitor was not adjusted whatsoever, so it was lying to everyone.

2. Buy a decent meter. Sekonic makes some great models if you can afford them. I use a SpectraCine IV which is cheaper and does the job, but doesn't have all the calculations the Sekonic does.

3. Learn to read your scene. The meter should be a final check to make sure what you see with your eyes, is actually what you are going to record. And that it's all going to make it.

4. Understand the camera and it's latitude. Again, test. I wouldn't count on anything more than 6 stops from the 5D but you may get 7.

5. If you don't understand how to use a meter, check out a book on basic photography. There are tons of good tips there. Since I came from the world of film, we had to learn to read the meter. No such thing as waveform monitors or histograms there. And E6 film wasn't particularly forgiving if you got it wrong.

Maybe Leo has some more tips.

Denis OKeefe · November 24th, 2009, 06:43 PM

I felt compelled to look at the "table of illumination" thread. Finally - all the answers. Where are the "baby" pigeons? Where DO socks go? Were the guys who tanked the economy really stupid - or exceptionally smart but only in their own self interest? Who made it against the law to tear the tag off the mattress I just bought.
But no.
F stops and shutter speeds.
I love a Sekonic incident meter as much as the next guy but at some point the hunt for the "perfect" exposure becomes an affectation or unachievable obsession.
Ansel Adams worked out a zone system. His negatives and prints were produced one by one, by hands dipped in caustic chemicals. Less than perfect and the negative or print were destroyed.
And all was well - until he sent it to a printer, a magazine, or a collector who would hang the print near a sunny window.
He didn't even have the option of "spanking the poop out of the blacks" via software, a producer/editor who decided to try the "bleach bypass" button, or the ability to twist a gamma curve like a drunken pretzel.
Video and photography are an unholy alliance, there simply are no standards when there are so many variables. We're not shooting Ektachrome anymore, there is no "perfect" exposure.
Nevertheless please lluminate this..... when did F stops become T stops? It has been years I know. But WHY?
Was it an economic decision - fire the guy who made the small line on the F for greater profit? Was something lost in translation when they turned the numbers on their side for the ease of the focus puller? Is is a German to English to Japanese thing like when MOS suddenly got sound and became a Man On Street interview?
I feel cheated. A table of illumination has got to be more than just a bunch of numbers on a spreadsheet.

October 27th, 2009, 08:12 AM	#1
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	A shot in the dark - table of illumination Ok, I am taking a shot in the dark here and hoping someone can save me some time. Has anyone made a table of illumination for the 5Dm2 yet? I use this one for my other work: Table of Exposure for Motion Picture film stock But because of the 30fps of the 5D, there is just enough of a change, especially at higher stops to keep this unusable. Around T2-T4 it's close enough so I am living with just that one. Or if anyone has a formula to calculate these if I know a value for certain, I can make my own chart in excel. Thanks in advance. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

October 28th, 2009, 01:05 AM	#3
Louis Maddalena Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: NYC Area. Posts: 550	How do you read this? __________________ Red Epic available for rent, starting at $500 per day, Scarlets, and Lenses available too. rentals.maddalenamedia.com

November 24th, 2009, 12:51 PM	#5
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Thanks Leo! I'll build a new spreadsheet based off the calculations. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

November 24th, 2009, 01:31 PM	#6
Richard Gooderick Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 795	I don't have a clue what this is about. __________________ http://www.gooderick.com

November 24th, 2009, 01:34 PM	#7
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	That's alright. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

November 24th, 2009, 11:44 AM	#4
Leo Versola Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 73	Hey Perrone, If you've got an iPhone, there's an app (kinda pricey but fantastic) called 'pCAM' that has an exposure calculator. Comparing pCAM to your table, you're pretty close but there's about a 5 to 10% variance in the results... Cheers, EDIT: Did some more digging around and found this: http://www.panavision.co.uk/services...calculator.asp Also, I re-engineered the numbers and here's the formula: Illumination in Footcandles = (360 x FPS x (2500 / 48) x T-Stop^2) / (Exposure Index x Shutter Angle x 2) Ran the numbers and they match what I'm getting in pCAM... Cheers again,

November 24th, 2009, 04:34 PM	#9
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	If there is no question asked, then I am not sure how I am supposed to "be helpful". So let's see. A table of illumination is a guide that says for a given ISO and a given shutter speed, this is the amount of light needed to make a proper exposure. Or working in reverse, if you have this much light, and you are using this shutter speed, this is the ISO setting that would be correct. Since film-derived ISO charts usually operate on the assumption of a 1/48 shutter, they are not correct for the 5D which has a 1/60 shutter by default. So the table I derived was one in which we be correct for the different shutter speed. Of course, if you have no means to measure (or calculate) the light then this is merely academic. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

November 24th, 2009, 04:38 PM	#10
Leo Versola Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 73	Basically, it's a table that lists the number of footcandles of light necessary to obtain proper exposure at various f-stops and ASA's. Below that number and you'll have underexposure, above it and you'll have overexposure. Used in conjunction with a light meter, it can help you when setting up lighting environments, controlling contrast ratios to fit within the dynamic range of your camera, etc. Hope that helps... Cheers,

November 24th, 2009, 04:49 PM	#11
Richard Gooderick Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 795	Thanks for the explanation guys. In practice, does this mean that you are using a light meter with your 5Dmk2? __________________ http://www.gooderick.com

November 24th, 2009, 04:54 PM	#12
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	That's ALL I've use with the 5D. Works beautifully. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

November 24th, 2009, 04:55 PM	#13
Richard Gooderick Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 795	Thanks Perrone Well, I might give that a go. Any tips? I've never used an external light meter before. __________________ http://www.gooderick.com

November 24th, 2009, 05:05 PM	#14
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Hmm tips... 1. TEST!! I had to blindly use the meter on our 5D shoot, but I was running back to the NLE after every setup to test the look. The production monitor was not adjusted whatsoever, so it was lying to everyone. 2. Buy a decent meter. Sekonic makes some great models if you can afford them. I use a SpectraCine IV which is cheaper and does the job, but doesn't have all the calculations the Sekonic does. 3. Learn to read your scene. The meter should be a final check to make sure what you see with your eyes, is actually what you are going to record. And that it's all going to make it. 4. Understand the camera and it's latitude. Again, test. I wouldn't count on anything more than 6 stops from the 5D but you may get 7. 5. If you don't understand how to use a meter, check out a book on basic photography. There are tons of good tips there. Since I came from the world of film, we had to learn to read the meter. No such thing as waveform monitors or histograms there. And E6 film wasn't particularly forgiving if you got it wrong. Maybe Leo has some more tips. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

November 24th, 2009, 06:43 PM	#15
Denis OKeefe Major Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wayne, PA Posts: 207	another view I felt compelled to look at the "table of illumination" thread. Finally - all the answers. Where are the "baby" pigeons? Where DO socks go? Were the guys who tanked the economy really stupid - or exceptionally smart but only in their own self interest? Who made it against the law to tear the tag off the mattress I just bought. But no. F stops and shutter speeds. I love a Sekonic incident meter as much as the next guy but at some point the hunt for the "perfect" exposure becomes an affectation or unachievable obsession. Ansel Adams worked out a zone system. His negatives and prints were produced one by one, by hands dipped in caustic chemicals. Less than perfect and the negative or print were destroyed. And all was well - until he sent it to a printer, a magazine, or a collector who would hang the print near a sunny window. He didn't even have the option of "spanking the poop out of the blacks" via software, a producer/editor who decided to try the "bleach bypass" button, or the ability to twist a gamma curve like a drunken pretzel. Video and photography are an unholy alliance, there simply are no standards when there are so many variables. We're not shooting Ektachrome anymore, there is no "perfect" exposure. Nevertheless please lluminate this..... when did F stops become T stops? It has been years I know. But WHY? Was it an economic decision - fire the guy who made the small line on the F for greater profit? Was something lost in translation when they turned the numbers on their side for the ease of the focus puller? Is is a German to English to Japanese thing like when MOS suddenly got sound and became a Man On Street interview? I feel cheated. A table of illumination has got to be more than just a bunch of numbers on a spreadsheet.