GL2 / XM2 Frame mode

Rob Lohman · January 15th, 2003, 06:00 PM

The problem with converting interlaced material to progressive
is the (small) time difference inbetween the frames. If the camera
or something in frame was moving you will begin to see feathered
lines. This is hard to remove in post, in fact it is actually impossible
without some loss in quality. But since the Canon's frame mode
is also a loss of quality it does not matter much. The best would
be true progressive scan (which would require a more expensive
CCD block and timing electronics and such).

If you shoot frame mode the WHOLE frame is made at the EXACT
same time, so there is no movement. The Canon's do this buy
coming certain rows and data from several of the CCD chips to
create a full resolution image. Since it is combing some quality
(what you also can call resolution, is lost). But it does this all at
the same time, so there is no time difference between the fields.
Hence no line feathering or de-interlacing worries.

That is the best way I can describe it for now, I hope this all makes
some sense!

John Lee · January 16th, 2003, 12:03 PM

Thanks again Rob, that makes a lot of sense now, I hadn't thought about it that way.

Sam Looc · March 13th, 2003, 06:36 PM

Hey, I was thinking of getting the GL2. How does it do with fast action shots in frame mode? I will be using it for shooting short indie martial art movies.

Adrian Douglas · March 13th, 2003, 09:03 PM

It all depends on how fast you plan on moving (panning/tilting) the camera. When shooting action in frame mode you should use TV and set the shutter speed to 50/60 depending if you use PAL/NTSC. Faster shutter speeds will produce a jerky footage, as will fast pans/tilts of the camera. You can use filters, polarizers, NDs etc to control the exposure.

It can be done but it takes some careful plannign of camera movements for your shots. Especially with a GL2 which is small and easy to move quickly when hand held.

Sam Looc · March 13th, 2003, 10:43 PM

I will be shooting in NTSC here in the U.S.A. I saw a clip of the DVX100 in 24p standard with fast motion and the motion was jettery/jerky, plus the picture did'nt look filmic to me. Heres the link http://www.mycen.com.my/dv/dvx100links.html

But then there is the "Christmas Magic video" found here http://momentsinmotion.com/demo.htm and this vid was amazing. I wonder did they just shot it 24p standard default or they did some stuff with the camera and post production.

I'm sorta choosing between the two (GL2 and the DVX100). If I could get the same picture quality as the "Christmas magic video" with out post production I will get this camera right away but the first link I posted above shows otherwise.

Frank Granovski · March 16th, 2003, 01:27 AM

I always make a point of shooting in interlaced when shooting fast action, unless I want to do it as an effect here and there throughout my footage.

Alex Dunn · April 1st, 2003, 11:54 AM

The GL2 performs wonderfully at 30fps. It's really just a built-in de-interlacer. In my opinion, frame mode shoots action shots much better than interlaced, because there's almost no blur.

That was a cool christmas video, I did a similar one with my kids last christmas. Mine was a 30 min production though.

Barry Goyette · April 1st, 2003, 03:47 PM

I've used the frame mode almost exclusively for several years, and have rarely seen any issues with photographing moving subjects. The frame mode's 30fps is slightly smoother than film's 24p, and somewhat less smooth that 60i footage. By using good camera handling techniques...ie avoid fast pans and lens axis rotations (hand-held camera jiggle), you really shouldn't have a problem. Keeping the shutter speed at 1/60 is also recommended.

I've posted this clip here before, but if you haven't seen it, heres a few minutes of action shot on a gl1 in frame mode.

http://homepage.mac.com/barrygoyette/iMovieTheater4.html

Barry

Marc Martin · April 1st, 2003, 10:52 PM

I don't know why a lot of people likes the Frame mode. Perhaps it is because they use an NSTC cam at 30p (I haven't tested 30p). I have a PAL XM2 and I always prefer 50i than 25p.

If I want a film look, I deinterlace then add a little motion Blur. This the best solution that I've found after many tests.

Charles King · April 18th, 2003, 11:23 PM

I was testing out frame mode on the Canon xm-2 and wanted to see how it looked. I tested a 1 minute shot and played back the tape on in the camera. The shot looked pretty much the same to me when viewing the clip from the camera lcd screen. I guess I'm doing something wrong. Any ideas?
I did the search but came up with nothing.

BTW, The zoom control of this camera is truely amazing. I'm talking about the slowest zoom of all. Just like how the big film makers do in major movies. I'm really impressed. Big plu for canon.
I'm still testing this baby and finding out some nice features. Yep, this is my first camera. So far so good.

Ken Tanaka · April 18th, 2003, 11:36 PM

Charles,
I don't understand what problem you're having. Could you be more explicit on your expectation -vs- experience?

Charles King · April 19th, 2003, 10:34 AM

Okay, I'll rephrase the question. When you shoot in Frame mode, can I see the results directly, during playback, in the camera lcd screen or do I need to connect it to a tv? Like I mention in the original post, I couldn't see the differnce while watching in on the lcd screen of the camera.

Ken Tanaka · April 19th, 2003, 10:52 AM

Charles,
I must have my thick hat on today because I'm still not sure I understand your question. Perhaps I can re-phrase what I believe you are asking.

Quote:

Are the differences between Frame mode and Normal mode on the GL-2 apparent when viewing footage on the camera's LCD panel?

The answer to that is no, not necessarily. Since Frame mode is basically a deinterlacing facility you would have to view the footage on an interlaced medium (i.e. television) to see most of its effect.

Barry Goyette · April 19th, 2003, 10:57 AM

Charles,

Perhaps you are misunderstanding what the frame mode does, as the "effect" is viewable while you are shooting, as well as during playback on the LCD or TV or computer monitor.

The frame mode is a Progressive scan-like feature of the canon prosumer camcorders that creates a look that is subtly different than standard interlaced video. Motion, photographed in frame mode, is slightly less smooth, giving a look that is often compared to standard 24 fps film.

If you are wishing to see the difference between normal movie mode and frame mode, record some of each of the same subject matter (make sure you include some subject movement in the shot), and view it back on a standard ntsc (I guess PAL in your case) monitor or TV set. The difference will be subtle, but readily apparant.

Additionally there is a wealth of discussion in these boards regarding likes, dislikes, and other aspects of this feature...just do a search for frame mode, and you'll get more than you ever wanted to know about the subject.

Welcome aboard.

Barry

Charles King · April 19th, 2003, 12:12 PM

Thanks guys. That's pretty much want wanted to hear. Yes, I did do a search long before. I've read almost all but none had the answers to the question I wanted to know. I'm not one of those lazy person. Thanks again

January 15th, 2003, 06:00 PM	#91
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	The problem with converting interlaced material to progressive is the (small) time difference inbetween the frames. If the camera or something in frame was moving you will begin to see feathered lines. This is hard to remove in post, in fact it is actually impossible without some loss in quality. But since the Canon's frame mode is also a loss of quality it does not matter much. The best would be true progressive scan (which would require a more expensive CCD block and timing electronics and such). If you shoot frame mode the WHOLE frame is made at the EXACT same time, so there is no movement. The Canon's do this buy coming certain rows and data from several of the CCD chips to create a full resolution image. Since it is combing some quality (what you also can call resolution, is lost). But it does this all at the same time, so there is no time difference between the fields. Hence no line feathering or de-interlacing worries. That is the best way I can describe it for now, I hope this all makes some sense! __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

March 13th, 2003, 06:36 PM	#93
Sam Looc Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Oakland Posts: 49	Frame mode for actions? Hey, I was thinking of getting the GL2. How does it do with fast action shots in frame mode? I will be using it for shooting short indie martial art movies.

March 13th, 2003, 09:03 PM	#94
Adrian Douglas Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Chigasaki, Japan. Posts: 1,660	It all depends on how fast you plan on moving (panning/tilting) the camera. When shooting action in frame mode you should use TV and set the shutter speed to 50/60 depending if you use PAL/NTSC. Faster shutter speeds will produce a jerky footage, as will fast pans/tilts of the camera. You can use filters, polarizers, NDs etc to control the exposure. It can be done but it takes some careful plannign of camera movements for your shots. Especially with a GL2 which is small and easy to move quickly when hand held. __________________ Adrian DVInfo.net Search for quick answers Where to buy? From the best in the business...DVInfo.net sponsors

April 18th, 2003, 11:23 PM	#100
Charles King Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: sweden Posts: 795	Playing back Frame mode I was testing out frame mode on the Canon xm-2 and wanted to see how it looked. I tested a 1 minute shot and played back the tape on in the camera. The shot looked pretty much the same to me when viewing the clip from the camera lcd screen. I guess I'm doing something wrong. Any ideas? I did the search but came up with nothing. BTW, The zoom control of this camera is truely amazing. I'm talking about the slowest zoom of all. Just like how the big film makers do in major movies. I'm really impressed. Big plu for canon. I'm still testing this baby and finding out some nice features. Yep, this is my first camera. So far so good. __________________ Charles 'What we perceive to be may not be what we believe to be.'

April 18th, 2003, 11:36 PM	#101
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Charles, I don't understand what problem you're having. Could you be more explicit on your expectation -vs- experience? __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

January 16th, 2003, 12:03 PM	#92
John Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 152	Thanks again Rob, that makes a lot of sense now, I hadn't thought about it that way.

March 13th, 2003, 10:43 PM	#95
Sam Looc Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Oakland Posts: 49	I will be shooting in NTSC here in the U.S.A. I saw a clip of the DVX100 in 24p standard with fast motion and the motion was jettery/jerky, plus the picture did'nt look filmic to me. Heres the link http://www.mycen.com.my/dv/dvx100links.html But then there is the "Christmas Magic video" found here http://momentsinmotion.com/demo.htm and this vid was amazing. I wonder did they just shot it 24p standard default or they did some stuff with the camera and post production. I'm sorta choosing between the two (GL2 and the DVX100). If I could get the same picture quality as the "Christmas magic video" with out post production I will get this camera right away but the first link I posted above shows otherwise.

March 16th, 2003, 01:27 AM	#96
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	I always make a point of shooting in interlaced when shooting fast action, unless I want to do it as an effect here and there throughout my footage.

April 1st, 2003, 11:54 AM	#97
Alex Dunn Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 202	The GL2 performs wonderfully at 30fps. It's really just a built-in de-interlacer. In my opinion, frame mode shoots action shots much better than interlaced, because there's almost no blur. That was a cool christmas video, I did a similar one with my kids last christmas. Mine was a 30 min production though.

April 1st, 2003, 03:47 PM	#98
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	I've used the frame mode almost exclusively for several years, and have rarely seen any issues with photographing moving subjects. The frame mode's 30fps is slightly smoother than film's 24p, and somewhat less smooth that 60i footage. By using good camera handling techniques...ie avoid fast pans and lens axis rotations (hand-held camera jiggle), you really shouldn't have a problem. Keeping the shutter speed at 1/60 is also recommended. I've posted this clip here before, but if you haven't seen it, heres a few minutes of action shot on a gl1 in frame mode. http://homepage.mac.com/barrygoyette/iMovieTheater4.html Barry

April 1st, 2003, 10:52 PM	#99
Marc Martin Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Paris, France Posts: 80	I don't know why a lot of people likes the Frame mode. Perhaps it is because they use an NSTC cam at 30p (I haven't tested 30p). I have a PAL XM2 and I always prefer 50i than 25p. If I want a film look, I deinterlace then add a little motion Blur. This the best solution that I've found after many tests.

April 19th, 2003, 10:34 AM	#102
Charles King Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: sweden Posts: 795	Okay, I'll rephrase the question. When you shoot in Frame mode, can I see the results directly, during playback, in the camera lcd screen or do I need to connect it to a tv? Like I mention in the original post, I couldn't see the differnce while watching in on the lcd screen of the camera. __________________ Charles 'What we perceive to be may not be what we believe to be.'

April 19th, 2003, 10:57 AM	#104
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	Charles, Perhaps you are misunderstanding what the frame mode does, as the "effect" is viewable while you are shooting, as well as during playback on the LCD or TV or computer monitor. The frame mode is a Progressive scan-like feature of the canon prosumer camcorders that creates a look that is subtly different than standard interlaced video. Motion, photographed in frame mode, is slightly less smooth, giving a look that is often compared to standard 24 fps film. If you are wishing to see the difference between normal movie mode and frame mode, record some of each of the same subject matter (make sure you include some subject movement in the shot), and view it back on a standard ntsc (I guess PAL in your case) monitor or TV set. The difference will be subtle, but readily apparant. Additionally there is a wealth of discussion in these boards regarding likes, dislikes, and other aspects of this feature...just do a search for frame mode, and you'll get more than you ever wanted to know about the subject. Welcome aboard. Barry

April 19th, 2003, 12:12 PM	#105
Charles King Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: sweden Posts: 795	Thanks guys. That's pretty much want wanted to hear. Yes, I did do a search long before. I've read almost all but none had the answers to the question I wanted to know. I'm not one of those lazy person. Thanks again __________________ Charles 'What we perceive to be may not be what we believe to be.'