HV20 alternatives for PAL land ????

[Daniel Garcia]

Ok I understand the buzz and excitement around this camera, but it also has some serious drawbacks, so I want to type them down and clear my mind:

Pro's: (in order of importance).

-Native 1920x1080 sensor. Very good resolution.
-Progressive sensor.
-Cheap, around 1000-900€.
-HDMI 4:2:2 output, enabling a very nice uncompressed workflow with the low cost Intensity capture card.
-HDV format, which, although not ideal codec, seems better that the AVCHD alternatives. Seems the best choice it you want to edit the footage without being bound to the third class NLE that the manufacturer wants you to use.

And...
+24p recording... this is a key selling factor... in the NTSC world. Here in Europe we have 50i and 25p. So this becomes quite irrelevant to me. 25p is enough and many other cameras can do that.

Con's:

-Rolling shutter. I can live with it, but i wouldn't like it to interfere with motion tracking, a technique I want to learn and practice.
-Lack of manual exposure control. No gain, no iris, no shutter. I know there are workarounds, but I can see myself becoming very frustrated with them.

So... having these in mind, I'd like to ask the community, what other cameras, in this price range, should I consider for me? What are the best alternatives, what are their drawbacks compared to the HV20?

I need 25p, some relatively nice codec that I can edit in Premiere or Final Cut Pro, Full HD 1920x1080 resolution (not one of those compromised 1440 horizontal resolution sensors, WTF did they do that? scammers...), some kind of audio input, some way to control aperture, 180º shutter and 0db gain and maybe HDMI output.

Is it so much to ask? :'( snif, I know what you're thinking ....

Is the JVC Everio GZ-HD7 any good? It's crippled by the NLE compatibility problem, although it's basically a higher bitrate HDV. But it has manual controls!! Is the sensor any good?

Any Sony?

It's also a real pity that this camera's AVCHD cousin, the HG10 doesn't use the full bitrate allowed by that codec. Has canon addressed the rolling shutter problems in that one? I guess they haven't. It's supposed to be the same sensor.

Well, let's see what you think.

[Mats Frendahl]

The HV20 has gotten better reviews than Sony and the JVC is not as good either. Google some keywords and find reviews. The HV20 has superior image quality but as you say - manual control is lacking - something I think is important (for me). I'd wait until the anual autumn fair (in Germany?) and see if there is a "HV30" or something from the other brands.

[Enea Lanzarone]

Originally Posted by Daniel Garcia

25p is enough and many other cameras can do that.

I really don't think so. For example, none of the smaller Sony cams in the same price range can do that at the same quality as the HV20. They simply don't have a progressive chip. Only the JVC can do it, AFAIK.

Originally Posted by Daniel Garcia

Rolling shutter. I can live with it, but i wouldn't like it to interfere with motion tracking, a technique I want to learn and practice.

So you can forget about all CMOS cameras, including all higher priced Sony cams. At the moment all CMOS cams suffer from the "wobbling", so you'd have to go for a CCD camera.

Originally Posted by Daniel Garcia

Lack of manual exposure control. No gain, no iris, no shutter. I know there are workarounds, but I can see myself becoming very frustrated with them.

There is SOME lack of manual control. Individual gain? No, but saying there's no iris or shutter control at all is simply wrong. You can set the shutter speed as with any other "more pro" cam. As for the iris, it's very easy to control then by adjusting the 'exposure', you can even make the camera show you the selected iris aperture. I think it's exagerated to call this a "workaround", especially because it's not frustrating at all.

Originally Posted by Daniel Garcia

(...) what other cameras, in this price range, should I consider for me? What are the best alternatives, what are their drawbacks compared to the HV20?

It seems to me you're expecting too much from a camera at this price range. Several reviewers found the HV20 to be the best you can get for the money. I'd even say it's the best lower end cam you can get. As for quality and control, the next step would be the Canon XH-A1, IMHO, but it doesn't have Full HD resolution, as far as I know. The Sony FX7, wich is more 'professional', has got a CMOS chip as well, and it's twice as expensive. Maybe you could have a look at the new Panasonic camcorders? 3CCD and full HD, but they use the AVCHD system which leads to severe motion artifacting.

[Daniel Garcia]

Originally Posted by Enea Lanzarone

I really don't think so. For example, none of the smaller Sony cams in the same price range can do that at the same quality as the HV20. They simply don't have a progressive chip. Only the JVC can do it, AFAIK.

Ok, I've been reading about the rest and it seems like you're right. 25p is not common AT ALL. That really tips the balance, I need a progressive sensor. So HV20 is the cam to get... even in PAL land.
The rest are just out of my budget. I'm a broke college student and I need a new computer too. In the future i'll probably invest in a 35mm adapter.

Right now the only interesting cams seem to be the HV20 and the HG10. We'll have to wait until there are new releases. When would that be? Is there a camera show soon?

Thank you for your responses.

[R. Phil Johnston]

something to consider - no 25p in dv mode!

would recommend getting a nd filter if your recording with studio lighting.