HG10 MTS file for 24p analysis
 

The following link has a short 6 megabyte video captured with the HG10 in PF24 cine mode.

http://rapidshare.com/files/62567223/cinemode-PF24.MTS


I post it so other users can see the 24P the camera produces.
This clip is of no use for anything else but looking for 24P in 60i container issues.
( It's video of a post with bushes in the background, and the camera panning left to right to make the interlace and frame combination decoding more obvious . Hint: Look at the edge of the post)

The best way to understand this problem is to single frame advance the video, and see the motion blur vs interlace issues. Users that just play the video at speed may not see the issues at hand.

I can't seem to decode this video stream into a clean 24P no matter what I try. I use Cineforms HDLink to convert to formats that After Effects CS3 can use.
I tried having HDLink do the pulldown removal, and I tried AE's as well, but I get the 4th frame problem.
At this point, I conclude that the HG10 can not make 24 frames per second progressive frames. Somebody please prove me wrong !!!

Since I am exclusively using HDLink to convert from MTS to MOV, maybe it is the problem. I sure hope that is the case here.

This is NOT a AVCHD compressor weakness at all. It's blatant field to frame reconstruction problems.

-Les

Exactly what site is the download site, and why is it to be downloaded using various applications

I don't understand. Video is *meant* to be played at speed. If an issue isn't seen "at speed" then how can it be an issue?

for analysis
 

Chris,
What I meant is that you will see more of the exact nature of the problem by inspecting the frames carefully. I'm one of the types of people that don't notice some things at speed, but I need to know what is happening as well.

I primarily work with film, and both HD camcorders I have had previously were 720P, they made very nice individual frames, like film. I was hoping I can get frames out of the HG10 as well.

Les.

I downloaded a similar file before. I am a PC user. I tried playing the video with no success on VLC or WMP. I tried to convert it using Cineform HDLink (Neo HDV), and did not have any success inside HDLink.


I then open Vegas 8, pulled the file into it, and it did play, albeit with a very jerky preview. I then converted it to a Cineform intermediate in Vegas 8, and the resulting file played beautifully on VLC and WMP.

any non progressive looking frames in there ?
 

Chris,
Can you tell if there are blend frames, or frames with interlace ?
-Les

The download site is rapidshare, a file share site.
We are trying various tools to get true ( or the best ) progressive frames from the HG10 camera.

UPDATE: I figured it out, PF24 *is* 24 progressive
 

After a bunch of hunting down different h264 decoders, I now have 24 fps progressive frames for editing. It turns out that the 264 decoder that HDLink was using was the PowerDVD decoder, and it was doing some of it's own deinterlacing before the HDLink tool got to process it. I couldn't get the powerdvd decoder to turn off this mode, so I disabled it, and I am now using a Mainconcept h264 decoder that I think got installed with an Adobe app.

Graphedit was of great use to see what decoder was being used, and I used DSFMgr.exe to disable the problematic codec. Thanks David for the hints!

So the HG10 *does* make 24 progressive frames per second. I do see odd trailing effects behind out of focus objects that pan across the screen, but that is another story. In all, I am pleased with the look for purposes of a tiny vacation camera.
-Les

<offtopic>
What Ulead/Corel application is bundled with HG10? Can you use it to extract proper 24p? Can you use Mainconcept decoder with this app?
</offtopic>

Les is correct, this is a perfectly exactable 24p file, the trick is to make sure you have a work AVCHD Demux and decoder installed and the decoder is trying to deinterlace the footage.

Here is a 24p AVI from that sequence converted through CineForm HDLink.

http://www.miscdata.com/downloads/cinemode-PF24.zip

Les, nice example example of rolling shutter. :)

Very interesting info
 

Les,

1st off, thanks for the work you're doing. Due to it I joined this board to try and find some additional answers. This may be off-topic, so apologies if so, but I'm starting to get a little excited about this camcorder again after quite the rollercoaster leading up to its release. A little background...

I'm a non-professional camcorder user, but would like to go to HD video on an all-digital level (flash or HDD) using progressive frames only (I believe interlaced video's days are numbered). I know the Canon HV20 is highly regarded, but uses tape. The reviews on the HG10 (Hard Disk Drive) showed that 24P was unusable. Now that the camera is out, it still sounds like some think it has unusable video, and some don't (sounds like you've had a breakthrough). I don't want to shell out money for this camera unless I know I'll be able to get the 24P it's supposed to have, out of it. AND, as I'm a non-pro, I don't have the tools that you all do. Sooooo......

Assuming you have, in fact, obtained good 24P from the camcorder, is there any way to narrow down on the exact tools needed to do this, and their cost (for one who would be starting from scratch). As Michael J. asks, have any tests been run with the software that actually ships with the camera to see if it helps?

Thanks again for getting my hopes back up....

mike@slavis.com

Sounds to me like David is answering the question from the standpoint of Cineform.

If you don't know about it, Cineform sells various levels of programs designed to provide intermediate editing files to edit HDV with. It takes HDV, and now AVCHD and converts it to an .avi file or .mov file that can be used to edit in NLE's like Vegas, Premiere, and on Apple side, Final Cut Pro. I use Cineform's NeoHDV to capture and convert my HV20 24p tapes to true 24p .avi files. As inidicated here and elsewhere by David, you can convert the files from the HG10 by having proper AVC codecs on board. Neo HDV runs about $ 250.00 last time I looked, but has turned out to be a great tool in this 24p thing for me.

Cineform is the best way to edit the AVCHD that these cameras make. The HDlink tool is smart and takes the guesswork out of getting back the original 24P frames.

The trick is making sure you have the correct decoder installed. My system had 3 installed, and I had to experiment to get one loaded that worked well. The two tools I mention in my previous post make this decoder selection easy. It is a little tricky for someone without some 'PC internals savvy' , but not too hard. I don't even know how the Mainconcept codec got on my system, I think it may have come with Premiere.
Users of AVCHD cameras will also want to investigate quality differences between the various decoders as there may be differences.
-Les

Would be nice to have some step by step instruction on how to isolate and use the codec for Cineform use. Think I got the gist from your prior post, but would be nice to have a little more detail.

I'm with you on that. I'm a newbie in terms of working with AVHCD, and to NLE's in general, but am a hardware and softare junky everywhere else. Seems like Cineform NEO HD is the way to go in terms of working with AVHCD but is there anything "simpler"? I'll go crawl the NLE threads but thought I'd tag along on this as well. I'm stoked to explore HD video/AVHCD via my new HG10 and would love to get started on the right path (i.e. one that involves minimal hair pulling...=).

Rob

guide to switching H264 decoders on Windows.
 

Here is how you figure out the decoder for use with HDLink :

Convert a HG10 video ( MTS ) that has lots of left right panning with HDLink. Be sure to go into the prefs menu and select the progressive box, and the 3:2 pulldown box. Make a Quicktime.
Play it with Quicktime player from Apple. Pause the video in places with panning and look for 'combing' or double frames. If you have none, you are set, stop here!
If you do see the problem, then download a free copy of graphedit. Drag the MTS video into graphedit. It will show a window of a schematic of how windows will play the video. You will see what decoder it is using in there. it will show video-in and video-out pins. Now, you may be able to set correct options in that decoder by right clicking so you may be able to shut off it's de-interlace. The de-interlace by the decoder is the whole problem, it screws up the video stream before HDLink can work on it.
So if you can't fix it there, in graphedit, you have to see what other h264 decoders you may have.
For this, you use DSFMgr.exe.

Download a free copy of DSFMgr.exe . This tool organizes the codecs , among other things. Go into the catagory "DirectShow Filters" and see what has H264 decoding. They almost always say H264 in the DisplayName listing.
You can lower the 'merit' of a filter you want to stop using. Merit is the priority rank of the decoder, the chance it will be used. You can also remove the decoder by hitting 'remove selected filter'. By this , it means it is taking it off the systems list for sure. You can reenable it by 'register new filter' , be sure to take note of what filter you are working on.
Of course, if there are no alternate filters for decoding H264, then you are stuck.
Check your work by dragging the MTS video back into graphedit again. If there was an alternate decoder, it will now show as the decoder in graphedit.
On my system, I disabled the 'powerdvd' decoder, and the Mainconcept one was used in its place. HDLink works for me now.

There really should be a better way to do this, I know.
I hope this helps, it really feels good to see nice progressive frames in a time line without all that interlace.
-Les

Les: I Googled Mainconcept AVCHD encoder on the internet, and found that it had been licensed to Corel... So it seems to me that the codec you are having success with may have come from the Ulead program provide by Canon.

I have a lot of .mpeg4 type encoders on my system but nothing shows H264.

When I try to convert the .mts file you provided in HDLink, I get a not supported message. So I assume it is because I do not have that program and codecon board.

So far, my work flow to get AVCHD to Cineform is still through Vegas.

1. Import the AVCHD file to a 1080i HDV time line in Vegas

2. Render the file as a 60i .m2t file.

3. In HDLink, load the file in the convertor to 24p .

This gave me what looked like a pretty good file from Les's file above.

Chris - what settings do you use in HDLink? When I looked, there seemed to be a few that would be of interest: pulldown but also a resizing one. I don't have the software in front of me right now, so can't give you the specific options, but all I'm really interested in is which boxes you checked.
Also, does it make sense to pre-convert to 24p and edit that way in Vegas or is there a particular reason for editing 60i and then converting?

<question removed>

This is my reasoning:

1. I know Vegas does not do HV20 pulldown properly. It is my understanding, it doesn't do it on HG10 footage either, because Canon, deeming these cameras consumer hasn't seen fit to include proper flags in the footage to allow the editors to recognize. We also know that both HV20 and HG10 lay their 24p in the 1080 60i stream.

2 So my first attempts were convert AVCHD file directly in Cineform. Cineform would not convert, with codecs I have on board. So I went back into Vegas, layed the AVCHD on the 1080 60i time line, and render that to a 1080 60i .m2t stream that I know Cineform will convert in the same way I convert HV20 captured .m2t files.

3. Why not just select 24p Cineform in Vegas to render to ? Because, the flags aren't there to do it properly and the rendered files are not right, from what I can tell.

I am curious if David Newman has any thoughts on this-- David ??

(Man, if you guys get me too interested in this, I might end up buying one of these cameras yet.....)

More on my reasoning..
 

Re: Setting In HDLink.

When converting HV20 footage, either from camera, or after capturing, per David Newman, I select Progressive, and 3-2 pulldown.

I could obviously edit in AVCHD, and deal with a jumpy preview. But that defeats one of the main purposes of Cineform, to provide a stable editing file that can be edited and color corrected with significantly less loss at rerender !

I still would rather directly convert in HDLink, because adding the step stinks, and I might as well stay with capture from the HV20 instead.

Editing 60i then converting to 24p has a range issues-- primarily is you edits don't fall on 24p boundaries (only 20% probability) when remove the pulldown later, you will have many issues (most tools will just give up.) This is also an issue for producing DVDs, progressive players will try and detect the pulldown and get it wrong on most of your cut. If you add dissolves in 60i mode, you have removing any changes of correcly removing pulldown. My position is, never edit 24p as 60i.

As for support AVCHD camera, simply download a decoder like Elecards, which has a trail version : http://www.elecard.com/products/prod...r/mpeg-player/ Or for a less expensive solution, I've had good luck with CoreAVC Professional Edition at $15. In both cases you want to make sure the deinterlacing is turned off.

David Newman:

I will try one of the codecs.

But meantime, if I was just taking the AVCHD file without adding any edit, and convert it to a 60i .m2t file in Vegas, am I preserving things so Cineform can do a proper pull down job ?

Yes, but why render to M2T, too great a quality hit. You could export to 60i CineForm than import that into HDLink and convert it to 24p.

Thanks David, didn't realize that would work....

Starting the isolation process...
 

OK, I'm at the point where I need some assistance. I'm way new at all this, so please feel free to correct me wherever I'm off-base. I'm trying to isolate the minimum items needed to get Cineform Neo HDV to work, and have been unsuccessful so far. This is really aimed at the "amateur" videographer who is on their own personal family-budget and not the professional who may already have several pieces needed already in their toolkit. The goal is to get good 24p output from Cineform Neo HDV with minimal cost. Here is the situation:

---------------
Try 1:
1) New install of Windows XP Professional
2) Neo HDV 3.1.2 installed

HDLink would not work with a message:
"Format not supported"

GraphEdit gave the following error when loading in the .MTS:
"Could not construct a graph from this file.
-Have you installed all necessary filters?
-Note that the 'Render File' menu option cannot render *.GRF files
Cannot play back the file. The format is not supported. (Return code: 0x80040265)

Lessons learned:
1) Cineform Neo HDV does not come with its own AVCHD filters for converting the .MTS files
2) The PowerDVD filters are not successful with Neo HDV (per Les Dit)
3) The Mainconcept filters are successful with Neo HDV (per Les Dit but cost $590!!! from http://www.mainconcept.com/site/cons...formation.html)

Questions:
1) What (less expensive) filters are needed to convert using Neo HDV?
2) Are the Mainconcept filters included with the HG10 software (Corel Application software)?

---------------
Try 2:
1) New install of Windows XP Professional
2) Neo HDV 3.1.2 installed
3) Corel Apps from Canon HG10 disc installed

HDLink "successfully" converts Les Dits 24p test file, with the message:
"Convert done".

Playback of the output file yields unacceptable "stuttering" in the video, proving that the stuttering is NOT a myth (at least if you don't have the right filters, which seem to be rather hard to find or cost $$$$$).

Graphedit shows active filters:
"Ulead MPEG Splitter"

connecting video to:
"InterVideo Video Decoder"
which ends at:
"Video Renderer"

and AC3 audio to:
"InterVideo Audio Decoder"
which ends at:
"Default DirectSound Device"

Lessons Learned:
1) Cineform Neo HDV produces a 1920x1080 .AVI output file
2) The filters shipped with the HG10 are, by default, unable to work in conjunction with Neo HD for quality 24p output
3) Neo HDV output .AVIs will not play on a machine with no Cineform components
4) The Mainconcept filters are NOT included with the HG10 software
5) The Ulead software that comes with the HG10 will not output a 24p file, all output is 60i (a la AVCHD on DVD-R) (so the 24p stays "hidden" in the fields of the 60i)

Questions:
1) What (less expensive) filters are needed to convert using Neo HDV?
2) Can the InterVideo filters be tweaked somehow to work correctly? (Zero additional cost solution)

---------------

I've put some of the relevant files from this "mini project" into an FTP folder if anyone wants to see them. Some have been already made available further up in this thread, and you'd be better off D/Ling them from those locations, but I wanted a complete set in one spot for my own purposes. This is my personal web/ftp server, which has slow upload speeds, so be gentle and be prepared to wait a bit for the larger DLs. Also, I will take this offline when necessary so links should not be considered "permanent":
Try 1 application in/outs: ftp://66.66.199.125/Cineform/XP-Cineform.pdf
Try 2 application in/outs: ftp://66.66.199.125/Cineform/XP-Cineform-HG10.pdf
Les Dit's test file (available earlier in the thread): ftp://66.66.199.125/Cineform/cinemode-PF24.MTS
David Newman's converted file (available earlier in the thread): ftp://66.66.199.125/Cineform/cinemode-PF24.avi
My (badly) converted file: ftp://66.66.199.125/Cineform/cinemode-PF24-001.avi

So that's where I'm at right now. The main question still resoves around what filters on the machine will actually work for the conversion.

My next move is to try some other filters by using DSFMgr to lower the probablity the currently-used components will be utilized so we try the "next" component until I "run out" on the machine. After that I will start over, and try some of the solutions suggested by David Newman, elecard or CoreAVC. I'm new to GraphEdit and DSFMgr so I am probably not the best at figuring out how to configure them...but I'll give it my best shot.

Les originally suggested that perhaps (de)-interlacing was the problem with the PowerDVD filters, but he couldn't shut it off. I wonder if the same applies to the Ulead/InterVideo filters, does someone more knowledgable than me know how to check if it's possible to turn off the de-interlacer in these filters?

Here are some "off-the-cuff" notes on this stuff as well (just for fun):

1) This trial and error stuff sucks
2) It would be nice if the manufacturers would actually give you the software you should be entitled to with their hardware ("hiding" 24p inside 60i inside AVCHD is the big problem here)
3) It would be nice if a "Full HD" camcorder actually recorded "FULL HD" at 1920x1080 instead of truncating the 1920x1080 from the sensor down to 1440x1080 (which I've now verified for myself, personally, that the HG10 does in every mode - I'm guessing Canon "couldn't be bothered" changing things from the HV20 since AVCHD actually DOES allow 1920x1080 video in the spec. Look for their next generation HDD consumer cam to include "REAL Full HD", and prepare to part with another $1,000 of your savings if you want it. On the upside, the picture is still very nice, but the misleading marketing MUST STOP. What good is a 1920x1080 sensor if it's getting chopped down?)

Thanks for any assistance,

mike@slavis.com

You went to the wrong location for your AVCHD decoder, than $590 is for an encoder application. Here is the Elecard AVCHD decoder $70 http://www.elecard.com/products/prod...r/mpeg-player/

Also CoreAVC works at $15, but requires the deinaterlace be turned off in the filter, and Core has been unreliable for purchasing licenses in the past (which I hope is behind them.)

NEO HDV is only licensed to 1440x1080.
NEO HD is licensed to 1920x1080.

Thanks
 

David,

Thanks for setting me straight on that. I tried to google Mainconcept AVCHD and that's what I came up with. Sounds like, at this point, I should "write off" the Mainconcept AVCHD filter anyway, especially since Les doesn't even know where he got it from!

Again, I'm no expert with this stuff, but I'm gleaning from your post that I should definitely have success with the $70 Elecard decoder, and most likely even with the $15 CoreAVC Pro decoder (with deinterlacing turned off - I'll have to try and figure out how to do that). CoreAVC available here: http://www.coreavc.com/index.php?opt...d=21&Itemid=59
I almost wonder if the "standard" version at $8 would be better since it states it doesn't handle interlacing anyway so there would be no need to turn of deinterlacing (although this may render it unable to pull out the 24p from the 60i stream AND the "standard" version doesn't take advantage of Symmetric Multi-Processing). Off-topic, I use CorePlayer Mobile on my Dell Axim and it's pretty awesome, so I have no problems giving them another $15.

I also realize that Cineform makes tools for Pros to use, and is overkill for a home user, but I'm confused by the licensing and the results I found with Neo HDV. I assumed the 1440x1080 specified for Neo HDV was for the input. When I ran HDLink from Neo HDV (I double-checked that I installed HD(V) and not HD) on the Les Dit source file (which played under Media Player with 1440x1080 resolution) and ran the resultant (albeit stuttering) .AVI through Media Player, it played with 1920x1080 resolution, telling me that the conversion actually resulted in 1920x1080 output (which is, incidentally, what I'm looking for). I also played the file you converted, and it also showed 1920x1080 resolution with smooth playback. Is that right? Am I correct that Neo HDV (along with a working codec/filter) is what I need to get my progressive frames out of the stream?

Thanks again,

mike@slavis.com

Are you sure you aren't confusing display resolution from encoded resolution? NEO HDV is 1440x1080 max, yet will set the pixel aspect ratio to display a 1440 encode as 1920. For professionals this is important, for hobbiests much less so. So far all the HG10 sample I have is only 1440x1080 encoded at the source.

I doubt the $8 CoreAVC will work, as you need to decode interlace completely if you want to remove pulldown, and it doesn't seem to support that. At $15 the pro version is a good deal.

Possible...
 

David,

That's certainly possible, as the only way I know to check the "resolution" is to do a File -> Properties in Windows Media Player while the video is loaded. I guess what you're saying is this may not be reporting the encoded resolution of the file, but may be reporting the display resolution instead (which has been interpolated from the encoded resolution). Is there a tool you or anyone know of that will report the encoded resolution of a media file for me to verify?

I will most likely make the $15 CoreAVC Pro codec/filter kit my next test....

mike@slavis.com

Please upload me you HG10 source file.

To determine the AVIs resulting resolution, right click in the "name/size/type" bar of windows explorer (details view), select "more", and check "Dimensions." Or Right click on the AVI file and select Propreties, and look in the summary page.

Ah, the good news and the bad news...
 

I don't know where to upload to, but it's just the Les Dit source file that I'm using for testing (I originally started using my own source files but realized that Les' was nice because it was short, has the panning in it, and you created a smooth .AVI from it which I've been using as a sort of reference). Here is the rapidshare source file location from Les:
http://rapidshare.com/files/62567223/cinemode-PF24.MTS

Note that I also have this (identical) source file, the .AVI you created and the .AVI (with stuttering) that I created on my personal FTP site:
Les Dit's test file (available earlier in the thread): ftp://66.66.199.125/Cineform/cinemode-PF24.MTS
David Newman's converted file (available earlier in the thread): ftp://66.66.199.125/Cineform/cinemode-PF24.avi
My (badly) converted file: ftp://66.66.199.125/Cineform/cinemode-PF24-001.avi

Thanks for the "Dimensions" tip ("you learn something every day"), I checked it and you're right, 1440x1080 it is (both your .AVI and mine). The good news is that now I know a surefire way to check the encoded resolution of an .AVI file, the bad news is that Neo HDV isn't encoding to the "FULL HD" of 1920x1080 that I was hoping it would (and the more bad news is that to do that would require Neo HD, which is $500!!!). So Neo HDV will get you the progressive frames out of the interlaced stream at the encoded resolution of 1440x1080, but in order to re-encode this at 1920x1080 (24p) would require Neo HD, do I have that right now? Any chance of Cineform coming out with a "hobbiest" version of any of these tools? :)

I've purchased the CoreAVC pack, I'll try it out later and update the post with what I find.

mike@slavis.com

1440x1080 is correct for Les's clip, which is only a 1440x1080 source file. GraphEdit confirms this. NEO HDV is doing everything correctly. If you "need" 1920, you had better start with a 1920 source, and really none of these consumer cameras can resolve anywhere near that, and if you do need 1920, then you would know $500 is a bargain. :)

Ha!
 

Ha, I'm not even touching that "bargain" comment, except to say, I'd like to see you tell my wife that in order to get the 1920x1080 24p output from our brand new $900 "Full HD" camcorder we need to spend another "bargain" $500. Also, as my wife would remind me, we don't "need" any of this stuff. :)

I knew going into this when I purchased the cam that it might take a *bit* more $$$ to get "Full HD" out of it, and I'm still trying to figure what I'm willing to go for. I'm trying to figure out:

1) What it will take to get 1920x1080 24p video out of this thing.

2) Now, it looks like I may settle on what it will take to get 1440x1080 24p video out of this thing, which may not be a bad idea anyway considering that to make the 1440x1080 -> 1920x1080 would require a "stretch" and interpolation/re-encode, and then if this output file is ever written to Blu-Ray or HD DVD (now I'm really dreaming, eh?) it would re-encoded AGAIN. Making my own 1920x1080 24p High Def discs sure would be cool....I digress...

At any rate, I do appreciate you helping this newbie learn some of the ins-and-outs here, and hopefully this will help some other newbies down the line.

I'll post later with my results from the CoreAVC codec pack.

mike@slavis.com

1) A 1920 camera to start helps. My point is you don't need 1920 if you can't even tell that the source was 1440. Only the high-end broadcast or film guys can use or benefit from a true 1920 image, and they will not be using a HG10. Plus the pixel count is nearly irrelevant, what detail can be resolved is more important.

2) Your not settling if you source is actual 1440.

All my AVCHD files are 1440x1080, just like HDV. Please someone upload a 1920x1080 AVCHD clip for my testing.

Mike, what David is saying is, to put it mildly, that the 'FULLHD' claims of these sub $1000 cameras is pure rubbish.
They are not getting 1920 true pixels across in any shape or form. The single cmos sensor is interpolated from bayer pattern from the get go. Plus, do this little test: Point the HG10 at something in a room in photo mode, and note two objects one on each side of the screen. Now switch to video mode. Note that it is now cropped in, you can't see the objects on the sides of the screen any more! Even fewer pixels are being used for video. I haven't done any measurements, but it may be more than 128 pixels different ( 2048 photo size minus 1920 video size. ) I noticed this when my attached 0.45x wide angle adapter was not vignetting on video, but was when I switched to photo mode.

So don't worry about 1440 horizontal being what the video is encoded at.
It's a neat little camera, non the less, and all of the manufacturers are stretching the truth.

Got It!!!
 

Good news! The CoreAVC Pro codec pack from http://www.coreavc.com/index.php?opt...d=21&Itemid=59 for $14.95 does, indeed, work with Cineform (and the HG10 .MTS files) to produce stutter-free 1440x1080p24 output. Here is how this went:

---------------
Try 3:
1) New install of Windows XP Professional
2) Neo HDV 3.1.2 installed
3) CoreAVC Pro codec pack 1.5.0.1 installed

HDLink successfully converts Les Dits 24p test file to an .AVI (no audio).

Lessons Learned:
1) Cineform Neo HDV produces a 1440x1080 .AVI output file (I was mistaken about the 1920x1080 from back in Try 2, Lessons Learned 1)
2) Windows Media Player will report out the resolution of the file after Aspect Ratio is applied, resulting in it reporting 1920x1080 for a 1440x1080 .AVI with 16:9 AR
3) To get the real resolution of an .AVI file in XP, right-click it, choose Properties and look at the Summary tag
4) The CoreAVC codec pack includes video filters only, to get audio the Corel Application Disc software still needs to be installed.
5) Disable the Deinterlacing option of the CoreAVC Codec (Start->Programs->CoreCodec->CoreAVC Professional Editon->Configure CoreAVC) to work correctly with Cineform

Try 3 application in/outs: ftp://66.66.199.125/Cineform/Try3-XP...rm-CoreAVC.pdf
Try 3 converted file (no audio): ftp://66.66.199.125/Cineform/cinemod...eInterlace.avi

---------------
Try 4:
1) New install of Windows XP Professional
2) Neo HDV 3.1.2 installed
3) CoreAVC Pro codec pack 1.5.0.1 installed
4) Apple Quicktime 7.1.6 installed

HDLink successfully converts Les Dits 24p test file to a .MOV (no audio).

Lessons Learned:
1) When the .MOV is played back in Quicktime the 16:9 AR is not applied, resulting in "squished" video
2) Windows Media Player will not play the .MOV file
3) The .MOV will not play through Quicktime on a machine that does not have Neo HDV on it.

Questions:
1) How do you view the .MOV at the correct Aspect Ratio? I don't see anywhere in the Quicktime Player to force it to adjust to it.
2) Will this .MOV play back on a Mac?
3) Is the Neo Player sufficient for playback on another PC along with Quicktime Player?

Try 4 application in/outs: ftp://66.66.199.125/Cineform/Try4-XP...CoreAVC-QT.pdf
Try 4 converted file (no audio): ftp://66.66.199.125/Cineform/cinemode-PF24-004.mov

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Try 5:
1) New install of Windows XP Professional
2) Neo HDV 3.1.2 installed ($250)
3) CoreAVC Pro codec pack 1.5.0.1 installed ($15)
4) Apple Quicktime 7.1.6 installed (Free)
5) Corel Apps from Canon HG10 disc installed (Included with camcorder)

HDLink successfully converts Les Dits 24p test file to an .AVI, including audio.

Graphedit shows active filters:
"cinemode-PF24.MTS"

connecting video to:
"CoreAVC Video Decoder"
which ends at:
"Video Renderer"

and audio to:
"InterVideo Audio Decoder"
which ends at:
"Default DirectSound Device"

Lessons Learned:
1) THIS is the configuration that works completely (make sure Deinterlacing is off in the CoreAVC codec).
2) When I installed Neo Player 3.1.2 on a separate Windows Vista PC to check playback compatibility, the .AVI plays in Media Player, but not using the proper Aspect Ratio, so things look "squished". It shows the resolution as 1440x1080 and the AR as "Unknown".

Questions:
1) Is there any alternative to using Neo HDV to pull the 24p out?
2) Now that I have the 24p, how can I get it onto a BD-R, BD-RE or HD DVD-R at 1080p24?

I'll be looking at Windows Media Encoder and Nero to see if they can help with any of this...although I'd say my posting in this thread is done, as I managed to get SUCCESS from the components listed in Try 5. Hope this helps someone!

Try 5 application in/outs: ftp://66.66.199.125/Cineform/Try5-XP...VC-QT-HG10.pdf
Try 5 converted file (complete): ftp://66.66.199.125/Cineform/cinemod...ware-Audio.avi

I'll keep these files available as long as I can for anyone interested.

---------------
mike@slavis.com

Les, I'll check this out when I get to that point, but maybe instead of taking 1920 across from the sensor and throwing away data to get down to the 1440 across actually saved, the camcorder is only grabbing 1440 across from the sensor? That would give you a 2048-1440=608 pixel delta from the full photo size (assuming photo is using 2048 across from the sensor). That seems like too large a differential, so probably not...

mike@slavis.com

Mike, just wanted to chime in here and say a huge "thank you" for taking the time to be the guinea pig in this whole 1080/24P deal with the HG10. The same goes for Les. I imagine there are a lot of others out there who are following this progression in lurking mode as it unfolds because I think we all have similar end results in mind, i.e., get true HD progressive editable footage finalized to an appropriate HD distribution medium for a reasonably justifiable (to our spouses, LOL) expense.

So again, huge props to you and keep up the great work, man.