Canon HV30 vs. Canon HF100 vs. (a Sony?)

John Hotze · May 7th, 2008, 10:01 AM

"The real-time AVCHD encoders just aren't quite there yet."

Is the real-time AVCHD encoder built into the camera in concrete to where it can't get updated or is this encoder you refer to part of the NLE process. Unless it's hard encoded into the camcorder, I would think with competition and a little time, the NLE's will be able to produce higher quality outputs as they improve the codecs.

Philip Williams · May 7th, 2008, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Hotze

"The real-time AVCHD encoders just aren't quite there yet."

Is the real-time AVCHD encoder built into the camera in concrete to where it can't get updated or is this encoder you refer to part of the NLE process. Unless it's hard encoded into the camcorder, I would think with competition and a little time, the NLE's will be able to produce higher quality outputs as they improve the codecs.

I'm referring to the hardware real-time encoder inside the camcorder. In the case of AVC we've got a newer codec that's extremely processor intensive, so they're still essentially developing and refining the hardware encoders. In the case of MPEG2 we've got a very mature codec that's been refined and developed for many years, so the real-time encoding hardware is extremely capable.

Zack Birlew · May 7th, 2008, 10:43 AM

I played with an HF10 at Best Buy yesterday. Some of you may rememeber that I was really impressed with the HF10 and HF100 at CES. Well, the one big issue that got me was the manual focus. Argh! It is indeed done with the joystick! I tried to get the focus just right with some random people around the store, couldn't do it without adding an extra flick left or right. With a 35mm adapter, these cameras would be fine, perhaps better than an HV20/HV30, but for straight shooting, it's AF or nothing. Image quality was decent, but there seemed to be some sort of fogginess to it at the long end, could have been just that unit. It never did seem as sharp as my HV20 or the store's HV30 sitting next to it.

All I can say is, I'm looking into getting a 35mm adapter and I'd like a tapeless workflow.... so, maybe.

Philip Williams · May 7th, 2008, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Felis

Well, the one big issue that got me was the manual focus. Argh! It is indeed done with the joystick!

I really wish Canon had kept the focus ring they introduced with the Optura 30/40 cams. Even the little focus wheel on the HV20/30 has got to be better than a joystick implementation. I guess if we want focus rings, Canon wants us to spend more money ;)

James Blunt · May 8th, 2008, 09:08 AM

Yeah, this is a consumer camera, 99% of people are going to leave it on autofocus, the fact that the little wheel was on the HV20 was only because HD was such a new technology, they knew it wasn't going to be mainstream quite yet, so early adopters would actually use it. From here out focus on all consumer cams will probably be similiar to the HF100.

Sean James · May 15th, 2008, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip Williams

Now having said that, yes the MPEG2 based HDV cam still looks better. The real-time AVCHD encoders just aren't quite there yet.

(...)

With videos on SD cards I can just plug the cards into my editing station, copy some files, burn them to Blu-Ray and/or copy to my HTPC and I've got instant access to the vids on my TVs and PCs. I can't argue with that :)

But don't you have any rendering time? You can't just pull it across and start editing, can you?

By the way: since the HF10/HF100 came out, the hv30 dropped in price (B&H at 780$), which makes it a steal.

Philip Williams · May 16th, 2008, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean James

But don't you have any rendering time? You can't just pull it across and start editing, can you?

Aha :) I was just talking about grabbing the files and playing them back easily. I personally like Panasonic's approach, which allows playback of AVCHD footage directly off an SD card on their newer BD players. I believe you can burn the native files directly to BD-R and play them back on the PS3 and at least some stand alone Blu-Ray players (I still have figure out the whole home burning thing for Blu-Ray, so take most of that with a big grain of salt). For me these solutions would work great for home videos, which I generally don't have time to capture, much less edit :(

Now when it comes to editing, yeah, that's a bit of an issue right now. I personally use Adobe Premiere which doesn't even support AVCHD yet. As such, if I was buying a backup cam for my XH-A1 I'd go with the HV20/30 for the maximum image quality and integration into my existing workflow (and it would make a nice deck to compliment the A1). But if I was buying solely for home video use, I wouldn't hesitate to get an HF10/100 and just enjoy the ease of tapeless file transfers/playback.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean James

By the way: since the HF10/HF100 came out, the hv30 dropped in price (B&H at 780$), which makes it a steal.

I've also noticed that the HF100 has been hovering in the low $700s at reputable dealers. Good prices for extremely capable camcorders, it really is amazing how much camcorder you get for the dollar these days. If I had the money I'd love to own both!

Sean James · May 16th, 2008, 11:36 AM

What I like most about tapeless is the absolute lack of noise and the instant start/stop.

But, as I am editing on Final Cut Pro (rendering time on import exceeds capture time from tape, so I found out on this forum) and for quality reasons I decided for the hv30.

But, definitely, once Panasonic, Canon, Sony, & Co will maximize their use of the pretty new coded AVCHD, it'll be a very interesting format.

Can you remember the first hdv camcorder? Wasn't that a JVC, in 2003? Compare that to the hv30, the A1, etc... what a development in only 5 years.

Sean James · May 20th, 2008, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean James

By the way: since the HF10/HF100 came out, the hv30 dropped in price (B&H at 780$), which makes it a steal.

I said that a few days ago. Obviously I jinxed it, because B&H raised their price on the hv30 again.

Nathan Allard · March 1st, 2010, 03:08 PM

I use a XHA1 and HV30. Im thinking of trying a HF100, I would like to save time on transferring footage. But im still a little reluctant.....

Does anyone using the same equipment have any pros/cons ?

Christian Williams · March 16th, 2010, 03:54 PM

I bought an HF100 in September, sent it back, and am entirely more happy with the HV40. Mostly this is because I'm still using a dual core 3 gig computer--AVCHD just laughed at me. And, yes, MiniDV for tape storage is still a huge comfort to me personally. As far as quality of image is concerned, with both cameras hooked to my 50" plasma screen, the HV40 actually seemed better (both were spectacular).

My NLE is Pinnacle Studio 12.1, which handles HDV easily. My impression is that even people with upgraded computers--quads with 6+ ram and good cards--still have AVCHD challenges. Certainly more challenges than MPEG2.

The cameras are very similar (HV40 clumsier in the hand). So Iif anybody has doubts about his NLE or computer specs, I'd suggest searching "AVCHD" in your NLE forum. It can be Beta-world....

Graham Hickling · March 16th, 2010, 07:41 PM

Pro: you'll save a lot of time transferring footage. And the camera is absolutely silent and probably more dust resistant etc (no tape drive).

Neither pro nor con: image quality ... I don't think the HF100 is worse than HDV from current gen Canon's and Sony's, but its not strikingly better either.

Perhaps pro or con: the camera is really small!

(I have been using Cineform as an intermediate in recent years, so performance on my NLE is identical to what it was with HDV)

May 7th, 2008, 10:43 AM	#33
Zack Birlew Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 613	I played with an HF10 at Best Buy yesterday. Some of you may rememeber that I was really impressed with the HF10 and HF100 at CES. Well, the one big issue that got me was the manual focus. Argh! It is indeed done with the joystick! I tried to get the focus just right with some random people around the store, couldn't do it without adding an extra flick left or right. With a 35mm adapter, these cameras would be fine, perhaps better than an HV20/HV30, but for straight shooting, it's AF or nothing. Image quality was decent, but there seemed to be some sort of fogginess to it at the long end, could have been just that unit. It never did seem as sharp as my HV20 or the store's HV30 sitting next to it. All I can say is, I'm looking into getting a 35mm adapter and I'd like a tapeless workflow.... so, maybe. __________________ "Babs Do or Babs Do not, there is no try." - Zack Birlew www.BabsDoProductions.com

March 16th, 2010, 03:54 PM	#41
Christian Williams New Boot Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 7	I bought an HF100 in September, sent it back, and am entirely more happy with the HV40. Mostly this is because I'm still using a dual core 3 gig computer--AVCHD just laughed at me. And, yes, MiniDV for tape storage is still a huge comfort to me personally. As far as quality of image is concerned, with both cameras hooked to my 50" plasma screen, the HV40 actually seemed better (both were spectacular). My NLE is Pinnacle Studio 12.1, which handles HDV easily. My impression is that even people with upgraded computers--quads with 6+ ram and good cards--still have AVCHD challenges. Certainly more challenges than MPEG2. The cameras are very similar (HV40 clumsier in the hand). So Iif anybody has doubts about his NLE or computer specs, I'd suggest searching "AVCHD" in your NLE forum. It can be Beta-world.... Last edited by Christian Williams; March 17th, 2010 at 03:15 PM.

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May 7th, 2008, 10:01 AM	#31
John Hotze Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri Posts: 129	"The real-time AVCHD encoders just aren't quite there yet." Is the real-time AVCHD encoder built into the camera in concrete to where it can't get updated or is this encoder you refer to part of the NLE process. Unless it's hard encoded into the camcorder, I would think with competition and a little time, the NLE's will be able to produce higher quality outputs as they improve the codecs.

May 8th, 2008, 09:08 AM	#35
James Blunt New Boot Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 18	Yeah, this is a consumer camera, 99% of people are going to leave it on autofocus, the fact that the little wheel was on the HV20 was only because HD was such a new technology, they knew it wasn't going to be mainstream quite yet, so early adopters would actually use it. From here out focus on all consumer cams will probably be similiar to the HF100.

May 16th, 2008, 11:36 AM	#38
Sean James Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 56	What I like most about tapeless is the absolute lack of noise and the instant start/stop. But, as I am editing on Final Cut Pro (rendering time on import exceeds capture time from tape, so I found out on this forum) and for quality reasons I decided for the hv30. But, definitely, once Panasonic, Canon, Sony, & Co will maximize their use of the pretty new coded AVCHD, it'll be a very interesting format. Can you remember the first hdv camcorder? Wasn't that a JVC, in 2003? Compare that to the hv30, the A1, etc... what a development in only 5 years.

March 1st, 2010, 03:08 PM	#40
Nathan Allard New Boot Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Thunder Bay,ON Posts: 22	I use a XHA1 and HV30. Im thinking of trying a HF100, I would like to save time on transferring footage. But im still a little reluctant..... Does anyone using the same equipment have any pros/cons ?

March 16th, 2010, 07:41 PM	#42
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Pro: you'll save a lot of time transferring footage. And the camera is absolutely silent and probably more dust resistant etc (no tape drive). Neither pro nor con: image quality ... I don't think the HF100 is worse than HDV from current gen Canon's and Sony's, but its not strikingly better either. Perhaps pro or con: the camera is really small! (I have been using Cineform as an intermediate in recent years, so performance on my NLE is identical to what it was with HDV)