Hdmi 4:4:4 at DVinfo.net

Owen Meek · January 31st, 2007, 01:51 PM

will HDMI give the option to 4:4:4 color? data rate big but still, option?

Thomas Smet · January 31st, 2007, 01:59 PM

nope. it is 4:2:2.

Of course this 4:2:2 only helps if you have not recorded to tape first. Once it is on tape it is 4:2:0 and not a whole lot is going to change that. HDMI and 4:2:2 will only work if capturing live from the camera head.

With analog component capturing 4:2:2 can sometimes help a lot because the 4:2:0 gets converted to an analog signal which doesn't have any extra detail in the chroma but it does smooth out the chroma. It sort of acts like chroma softening filters you can use in certain NLE's.

Owen Meek · January 31st, 2007, 02:21 PM

Thank You Thomas!!!

how does one capture the analog output? i was thinking firestore but thats digital, what you propose sounds interesting. and smoothing the chroma may help latitude too?

my interest in reduced color sampling is to achieve better color grading (and b&w) in post. i hope 4:2:2 will be good enough and comparable to 4:4:4.

thanks again!

Rich Dykmans · January 31st, 2007, 10:01 PM

I'm wondering how many people will actually be recording uncompressed video out of the camera head via HDMI. I mean c'mon, if you need that kind of quality and can afford the deck or NLE it would take to actually work with it I think a more expensive camera with better lens, chips etc would already be in your arsenal or plans.

It is nice great way to connect to an HDTV for normal playback off tape however.

Lee Wilson · January 31st, 2007, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Dykmans

I'm wondering how many people will actually be recording uncompressed video out of the camera head via HDMI.

Me !

Perhaps not uncompressed, but certainly something without the dataloss of MPEG2/HDV.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Dykmans

I mean c'mon, if you need that kind of quality and can afford the deck or NLE it would take to actually work with it I think a more expensive camera with better lens, chips etc would already be in your arsenal or plans.

Can't afford that kind of gear !! After Effects and similar compositing packages will simply love you for feeding them 1:1 1920*1080 files with only mild compression, I can see this method really helping things like keying.

For the price of a Intensity Black Magic Card ($249.00) I would say it is worth some investigation.

Mathieu Kassovitz · February 1st, 2007, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Wilson

For the price of a Intensity Black Magic Card ($249.00) I would say it is worth some investigation.

Yes. But it seems is only 1080i therefore not progressive. Then, it won't take advantage from the sensor's progressive capabilities or isn't it so?

Lee Wilson · February 1st, 2007, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathieu Kassovitz

Yes. But it seems is only 1080i and not progressive. Then, it won't take advantage from the sensor's progressive capabilities or isn't it so?

The HV20 has a progressive sensor, it shoots progressive footage at 24/25 fps.

Thomas Smet · February 1st, 2007, 12:19 AM

the HV20 also only outputs as 1080i because that is the standard for 1080 HD. 24p almost always has to sit inside of a 60i stream or 60p in the case of 720p HD. 24p DVD's are 24p but they have flags set in the mpeg2 stream to treat it as 60i. If you have a DVD player that can deal with those flags you can get the true 24p.

Even 24p DV cameras had to put the video in a 60i stream which is why we have all the fun with 3:2 pulldown. That is just the nature of the beast.

The intensity card captures 1080i which is exactly what every HDV camera outputs from Component, composite, YC, SDI or HDMI. You then either have to use a 3rd party tool to remove the pulldown, keep it as 60i with the pulldown or use software such as Cineform if they ever design their codec to work with the Intensity card. Cineform can remove the pulldown on the fly during capture for other hardware devices.

Just because HDMI is uncompressed doesn't mean you have to capture uncompressed. If you use a Mac you can capture to photojpeg or DVCPROHD both of which do not need a raid system for your hard drives and will work on pretty much any hard drive including external drives. On the PC side the Intensity card comes with mjpeg HD codec that also fits very well on a single hard drive. While these codecs are still compressed they are 4:2:2 and have much less compression and actually use less system resources so they are easier to deal with.

Think of it this way, capturing to one of these codecs with the Intensity card is almost exactly like capturing using Cineform. Both take HDV and translate it to a less compressed video format that is easier to process. Cineform does it as software only over the firewire connection. Intensity of course requires the card but it has the added bonus of true light compressed video live from the head that bypasses any mpeg2 compression which is something Cineform cannot do.

Wes Vasher · February 1st, 2007, 12:47 AM

Here's what I'm wondering. If the sensor is 1920x1080, is all that information being sent out over HDMI or is it being scaled to 1440x1080 and then back up to 1920x1080 before going out to the HDMI port? Not sure if anyone but a Canon engineer would know this at this point. It's not horrible if it scales it down but it would be nice if it didn't do that.

Also, wonder if anyone has used Intensity to capture to one of the Motion-JPEG codecs and what the quality is like. What quality settings are available or perhaps that is dependent on the user's computer.

Lee Wilson · February 1st, 2007, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

Even 24p DV cameras had to put the video in a 60i stream which is why we have all the fun with 3:2 pulldown. That is just the nature of the beast.

With the PAL version there will even be no need for pulldown as it most probably will shoot 50i and 25p.

:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

The intensity card captures 1080i which is exactly what every HDV camera Just because HDMI is uncompressed doesn't mean you have to capture uncompressed. If you use a Mac you can capture to photojpeg or DVCPROHD both of which do not need a raid system for your hard drives and will work on pretty much any hard drive including external drives. On the PC side the Intensity card comes with mjpeg HD codec that also fits very well on a single hard drive. While these codecs are still compressed they are 4:2:2 and have much less compression and actually use less system resources so they are easier to deal with.

My thoughts exactly !! I was thinking either Photojpeg or even H.264.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

Think of it this way, capturing to one of these codecs with the Intensity card is almost exactly like capturing using Cineform. Both take HDV and translate it to a less compressed video format that is easier to process. Cineform does it as software only over the firewire connection. Intensity of course requires the card but it has the added bonus of true light compressed video live from the head that bypasses any mpeg2 compression which is something Cineform cannot do.

And additionally keeps the signal as 1920*1080 and not 1440*1080. (hopefully!)

Mathieu Kassovitz · February 1st, 2007, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Wilson

The HV20 has a progressive sensor, it shoots progressive footage at 24/25 fps.

Yes I know.

I meant the Blackmagic Intensity Card, not the new camera. Using it with this card, it will be 1080i not 24p nor 25p or am I missing here something?

Mikko Lopponen · February 1st, 2007, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

the HV20 also only outputs as 1080i because that is the standard for 1080 HD. 24p almost always has to sit inside of a 60i stream or 60p in the case of 720p HD.

What about the Canon xh a1? It encodes the 25p mode as progressive, not interlaced, that's why it doesn't work anywhere else but Canons stuff.

Why couldn't the hv20 be like that?

Wes Vasher · February 1st, 2007, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikko Lopponen

What about the Canon xh a1? It encodes the 25p mode as progressive, not interlaced, that's why it doesn't work anywhere else but Canons stuff.

Why couldn't the hv20 be like that?

One reason could be because this is a consumer Camera and you would need a professional level editing program to edit 24f. Many low cost programs edit 60i HDV today which is what the HV20's 24p is captured in.

Thomas Smet · February 1st, 2007, 09:40 AM

I agree. 60i is just a lot easier for consumers to deal with. Many times the consumer is looking at 24p as a sort of effect just like shooting B/W or inverted. It is an added bonus for those of us who know how to deal with the pulldown. 99% of consumers will never have a desire to actually edit the true 24p frames and just want to slap together a cool looking video.

I agree that it would have been nice to get a true progresssive encoding but we all must remember that this is a consumer camera. It is designed for the consumer and not for pro's. We should be very happy to even have any type of 24p recording on a camera this cheap. Yes the 24p may be harder for us to pull the true 24p frames from but it can be done and consumers just wouldn't want to do that sort of thing.

Lee Wilson · February 1st, 2007, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathieu Kassovitz

Yes I know.

I meant the Blackmagic Intensity Card, not the new camera. Using it with this card, it will be 1080i not 24p nor 25p or am I missing here something?

If the the Blackmagic Intensity Card captures interlaced or progressively makes no difference to the input signal.

January 31st, 2007, 01:51 PM	#1
Owen Meek Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 69	Hdmi 4:4:4 will HDMI give the option to 4:4:4 color? data rate big but still, option?

January 31st, 2007, 01:59 PM	#2
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	nope. it is 4:2:2. Of course this 4:2:2 only helps if you have not recorded to tape first. Once it is on tape it is 4:2:0 and not a whole lot is going to change that. HDMI and 4:2:2 will only work if capturing live from the camera head. With analog component capturing 4:2:2 can sometimes help a lot because the 4:2:0 gets converted to an analog signal which doesn't have any extra detail in the chroma but it does smooth out the chroma. It sort of acts like chroma softening filters you can use in certain NLE's.

January 31st, 2007, 02:21 PM	#3
Owen Meek Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 69	Thank You Thomas!!! how does one capture the analog output? i was thinking firestore but thats digital, what you propose sounds interesting. and smoothing the chroma may help latitude too? my interest in reduced color sampling is to achieve better color grading (and b&w) in post. i hope 4:2:2 will be good enough and comparable to 4:4:4. thanks again!

January 31st, 2007, 10:01 PM	#4
Rich Dykmans Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Discovery Bay, CA Posts: 138	I'm wondering how many people will actually be recording uncompressed video out of the camera head via HDMI. I mean c'mon, if you need that kind of quality and can afford the deck or NLE it would take to actually work with it I think a more expensive camera with better lens, chips etc would already be in your arsenal or plans. It is nice great way to connect to an HDTV for normal playback off tape however.

February 1st, 2007, 12:19 AM	#8
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	the HV20 also only outputs as 1080i because that is the standard for 1080 HD. 24p almost always has to sit inside of a 60i stream or 60p in the case of 720p HD. 24p DVD's are 24p but they have flags set in the mpeg2 stream to treat it as 60i. If you have a DVD player that can deal with those flags you can get the true 24p. Even 24p DV cameras had to put the video in a 60i stream which is why we have all the fun with 3:2 pulldown. That is just the nature of the beast. The intensity card captures 1080i which is exactly what every HDV camera outputs from Component, composite, YC, SDI or HDMI. You then either have to use a 3rd party tool to remove the pulldown, keep it as 60i with the pulldown or use software such as Cineform if they ever design their codec to work with the Intensity card. Cineform can remove the pulldown on the fly during capture for other hardware devices. Just because HDMI is uncompressed doesn't mean you have to capture uncompressed. If you use a Mac you can capture to photojpeg or DVCPROHD both of which do not need a raid system for your hard drives and will work on pretty much any hard drive including external drives. On the PC side the Intensity card comes with mjpeg HD codec that also fits very well on a single hard drive. While these codecs are still compressed they are 4:2:2 and have much less compression and actually use less system resources so they are easier to deal with. Think of it this way, capturing to one of these codecs with the Intensity card is almost exactly like capturing using Cineform. Both take HDV and translate it to a less compressed video format that is easier to process. Cineform does it as software only over the firewire connection. Intensity of course requires the card but it has the added bonus of true light compressed video live from the head that bypasses any mpeg2 compression which is something Cineform cannot do.

February 1st, 2007, 12:47 AM	#9
Wes Vasher Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 440	Here's what I'm wondering. If the sensor is 1920x1080, is all that information being sent out over HDMI or is it being scaled to 1440x1080 and then back up to 1920x1080 before going out to the HDMI port? Not sure if anyone but a Canon engineer would know this at this point. It's not horrible if it scales it down but it would be nice if it didn't do that. Also, wonder if anyone has used Intensity to capture to one of the Motion-JPEG codecs and what the quality is like. What quality settings are available or perhaps that is dependent on the user's computer.

February 1st, 2007, 09:40 AM	#14
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	I agree. 60i is just a lot easier for consumers to deal with. Many times the consumer is looking at 24p as a sort of effect just like shooting B/W or inverted. It is an added bonus for those of us who know how to deal with the pulldown. 99% of consumers will never have a desire to actually edit the true 24p frames and just want to slap together a cool looking video. I agree that it would have been nice to get a true progresssive encoding but we all must remember that this is a consumer camera. It is designed for the consumer and not for pro's. We should be very happy to even have any type of 24p recording on a camera this cheap. Yes the 24p may be harder for us to pull the true 24p frames from but it can be done and consumers just wouldn't want to do that sort of thing.