Cine mode settings?
 

Hi -

I just got my HV20 from a local store here in Boston, and I am extremely impressed with my test footage (though sometimes there are some weird ripple artifacts that seem to be related to motion).

A question - I am surprised that the Cine Mode is mutually exclusive with the other "P" Flexible Recording Programs (P, Tv and Av) - page 46. Does anyone know what the settings of Cine Mode are so they can be reproduced using the Custom option of Image Effects?

Thanks,
Kevin

So "P" is all auto and the camera sets everything, "Tv" is shutter priority where you pick the shutter and the camera sets the aperture, "Av" is aperture priority where you pick the aperture and the camera picks shutter speed. That's correct, yes?

So the "Cine Mode" is something you select instead of any of these other options? Does that mean everything is auto like in the "P" mode? Since you actually have the camera, can you tell us if there's any way to change the aperture or shutter speed when in the Cine mode?

My guess, and this is only a guess, is that the Cine Mode might lock the shutter speed at some kind of preset and then picks an aperture for you based on the amount of light. I'm guessing this because of the motion effects caused by high shutter speeds and the fact that this "Cine Mode" is going for a look that probably doesn't mesh well with a high shutter speed.

Anybody have more info on this?

OT a little bit, but...
 

Kevin wrote

"though sometimes there are some weird ripple artifacts that seem to be related to motion"

This sounds like the same problem that was addressed in another thread. Is this really a serious problem?

OK, two things: regarding Cine Mode, actually, that's exactly my question. I think that Cine Mode is a bunch of presets.

You can definitely lock the shutter in 24p, it specifically explains that on the same pages in the manual - 46 & 47. However, it appears that the separately available Cine Mode adjusts various additional settings in addition to shutter & aperture. So, I'm wondering what the settings are if you want to have the same color look, but independently lock the shutter or aperture.

As far as the ripple, unfortunately, I can't post a sample right now. But, I had my camera on a tripod and there is a strange wave that passes through the image for a split second. I'm willing to live with it for now. If it turns out to be a defect, I'm sure we'll soon know. When I get my computer back, I'll see if I can scan and post a sample.

Kevin, here is the thread on the OIS problem. Watch the video clip. Seems like this ripple wave effect is similar to what can be seen in the clip.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89865

thanks

Hmmm... maybe its similar to the first shot. The others seem MUCH more severe.

Is this the ol' "rolling shutter" issue perhaps? I noticed the "vertical stretch" effect on one of those clips from the other thread... you have to be pretty well stabilized and avoid movements vertically through the frame with HD...

It ain't as easy to shoot as SD... lots of "new" techniques to learn, and new "features" to deal with... gotta love technology!

DB>)

Don't confuse Cine Mode with 24P mode. You can adjust shutter and aperture in 24P mode.

According to the manual (p46) Cine Mode means "the camcorder adjusts various image settings to give a cinematic look to your recordings." It's not related to the 24P function of the camera.

In keeping with Kevin's original question at the top of the thread: Does anyone know: What are the settings of Cine Mode? Or what are the adjustments that Cine Mode makes to the image?

That's right Rob, the way I understand it is: On P or program you have four choices.....P, Tv, Av and Cine Mode.

This is different from the recording standard which you also have four choices......HDV, HDV24p, DVwide 16.9, DVnormal 4.3

You have the choice to pair up the HDV24p recording standard with the Cine Mode preset (maybe a combination of saturation, sharpness, constrast/brightness) to give you that "cinematic look" which in laymen terms as I see it means Less color saturation, softer image, Less contrast Less video enhancing artifacts, maybe wider Dynamic range look of Cinema Mode.

You may also choose not to pair up the HDV24p recording standard with the Cine Mode in which case you will be dealing with straight 24p without the enhancing of the preset.

They are however all adjustable see Manual page 46 bottom right.
Hope this helps
Thanks,
Luis

Cine Mode is quite silky
 

I just unpacked my HV20 and started playing with it. I have it connected to my monitor and have been aiming it out the window at ponderosa pines and aspen in late day lighting. Switching to cine mode gives the image a very smooth film-like look. I expected it to yield an overly contrasty image but it doesn't. I think it's very professional-looking from what I have seen so far. I am not sure I have figured out the proper way to remove pulldown, so I haven't tried 24p and the cine mode together.

Regards,

Pat

If cine-mode means that sharpening and saturation is turned down and that's it then sign me up! I've read that you lose image detail but in a couple days I'll be able to see for myself.

That's exactly what I erroneously did (conflated Cine Mode with 24P). Knowing that it's a consumer camera and then reading the original post, I thought that was what the situation was. But I'm very happy to be mistaken. :)

Well,.. Wes I was looking for an answer too and I think I found it, to my surprise of all places CamcorderInfo, if you click the performance tab of the review you will find among other things a good explanation of what I thought is the Cinema Mode, in fact is preset#8 of the more expensive HX-A1 HD.

I was surprised for CamcorderInfo very unbiassed report and good explanation of the workings of the camera and 24p. Very different from what they reported on the HV-10. Click the PERFORMANCE tab.

Just posted today, here is the link:http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

Thanks
Luis

Where have you been, Luis? I first wrote about that long ago, way back on January 31:

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv20overview.php

"There's a Cine color mode available as well, which can be used with or without 24p. It's actually based on one of the Custom Presets included with the Canon XH A1 and G1 camcorders, number 8 (Cine.V.) The parameters of that preset are Gamma: Cine 1, Knee: Low, Black: Stretch, Sharpness: -4, Color Matrix: Cine 1, Color Gain: -20, Color Phase: +5, Red-Blue: -5, Green-Red: -5, Blue-Red: +5, and Red-Green: +12. When the HV20 begins shipping in April, it'll be interesting to see how this Cine color option matches up with Custom Preset 8 from an XH A1."

I think there is a loss of definition with the cine preset - I think I am more inclined to shoot without it and use magic bullet et al in post

Aha!! Now, I knew I 've seen this some place before, Thank You for reminding me.

Luis

Is information being thrown away or is it simply the in camera sharpening being turned down?

Any ideas as to shutter in Cine mode?
 

Chris, I think the Cine mode looks absolutely fantastic when combined with the 24P setting. Any idea if the Cine mode is setting the shutter at 48 or some other fixed value?
Regards, Alan

I agree Luis, this was a much fairer report than the one they gave on the HV10. I still would never buy or not buy a camera based soley on their reviews, but they seem to be trying to do a better job.

Can you still lock and set the exposure with the EXP button when Cine Mode is activated?

Well I think sharpness is being turned down - can this be reversed in vegas?
I like the contrast and gamma look otherwise - it just looks a little soft

I would assume if you want to add sharpening that there would be either a sharpen or unsharp mask filter that would do the same thing as the in camera sharpener. I'm no expert. On my Canon point and shoot turning down sharpening makes for a softer picture but a much more natural picture IMO. I'd rather just use Photoshop's unsharp mask anyway and set the sharpness to exactly what I would want later, same theory for video?

Here are two clips from the HV20 with Cinemode on and off.

This was shot late afternoon near the 59th Street Bridge.

24p+Cinemode ON http://www.filefactory.com/file/e20c24/

24p+Cinemode OFF http://www.filefactory.com/file/6a1618/

The files are about 22-24 megs each.

John, beautiful clips and what a great comparison of with and without cinema mode. The cinema mode on this clip looks amazing to me, very natural.

Thanks for uploading those. While I do like the cinemode, it leaves me feeling mushy in the blacks. I mean, I like the extra detail in the sky versus the hotspots in the 'off' clip, but with cinemode on I feel like there are no true blacks in the frame at all.

Nice comparison of the options. Thanks

thanks John just downloading now. Is it possible to edit the cine preset - it to just adjust the sharpness up while leaving the colour, gamma etc?


Cheers

I think so--The HV20 is tricky as you need to use the joystick to activate it.

You press it once...and you navigate using the joystick to EXPOSURE and select.

And then you have an option of increasing/decreasing exposure or leaving it alone.

This is one area where I wish the controls were more like the Sony PDX10.

Nope...you can't do anything with Cinemode on except adjust exposure if desired.

Thats a real shame - I love the look apart from the fact I think its a little too soft - I could always sharpen in vegas I guess

Thanks for the footage - really great comparison - just what I was looking for. Any more would be welcomed :)

I noticed that in cine mode the fine branches were visible on the right (middle) of the picture unlike the non cine mode where they were blown out

Here's one more, 24p and Cinemode on.

Looking down 5th Avenue in NYC. It is a 40 megabyte file.

http://www.filefactory.com/file/c31f23/

Ah okay, that's good. Since you say "navigate", what are the other options in that menu?

These two files have .ts suffixes. What codec did you use to create them? I would have expected .m2t suffixes for HDV files.

Good luck.

Dennis

In response to questions asked here: CINE mode is a fully automatic exposure mode. None of the parameters (shutter, iris, or gain) are "locked", they can all vary depending on the lighting conditions. However, the camcorder does seem to try very hard to maintain 1/48 shutter and 0dB of gain whenever possible.

But that's not guaranteed, and in a dark interior setting you may find yourself with 9dB of gain and a 1/8 shutter. So always make sure to feed the camera enough light and you should usually get 1/48 shutter with 0dB.

You can lock exposure though, and force the camera to use 1/48 and 0dB, but you'd have to do so by forcing exposure to some known quantifiable setting first. My trick for that is that I've loaded up a white JPG on my cell phone; I can fill the HV20's screen with that white JPG and lock exposure and know that I've got 0dB and 1/48 on the EXP+/- scale all the way from -11 up to +6. Going to +7 through +11 will involve gain and slower shutters, so I avoid that.

That's a great tip Barry. Thanks.

Barry - how do you "lock" anything on the HV20 other than the shutter in Tv mode and apeture in Av mode? Won't the camera automatically compensate [either shutter, apeture or gain, as appropriate] as the scene(s) change?

Peter -- when in Tv mode, use the Exp. Lock button on the back of the camcorder.

Thanks Chris. You're talking about using the "Manual Exposure Adjustment" [manual p 48-49]? The joystick setting that allows you to choose -1---0---+1? I see this as EV compensation ranging from -1 to +1 but I guess it will also "lock" in that compensation number. Do we know if this setting survives turning the camera on and off? Or do I have to set it each time?

Edit: thinking about this, I don't think it locks exposure; rather it allows you to add or subtract 1 EV brightness but the camera will still adjust it's exposure. Am I missing something?

How do you download those files?

The layout's confusing, there's nothing to click on, when I hit "download with basic" I get nothing to download with and I still don't see where to download. Very irritating.

Yes.

It does not; you'd have to set it every time.

It does force it into fixed exposure mode. You can tell it you want the image brighter or darker, but you cannot tell it *how* to make the image brighter or darker. The camera will decide whether it should open up the iris, or add gain, or change the shutter speed; you don't get to decide that.

However, it does it the same way every time. So if you lock the exposure to a set IRE value (such as I do with the cell-phone-LCD trick) then any + or - adjustment of the EXP will result in predictable behavior. I've verified that using the cell phone trick, it locks in at 1/48 and 0dB, and I can change all the way down to -11 with it adjusting exposure only by changing the ND or iris; and up to +5 with it only opening up the iris. Any further than +5 and it will bring in gain or change the shutter.

I don't have the camera but, from my reading, you are correct about the "manual exposure adjustment" However, what I think Chris is talking about is something different that allows you to 'lock' the exposure and then adjust it up and down by 11 notches (or something like that)

Again, I'm only working from what I've read, but I think there is an EXP lock joystick setting that allows you to adjust the overal exposure.


Here, check out this greatly informative post by Dennis Wood. It has lots of great info, but also references the expsure settings that go up and down a total of 22 notches (I guess): http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....1&postcount=13