HV20 cine mode more dynamic range?
 

Here's a 1:1 crop of 1440x1080 video stream, Cine 1/48 5.6 and AV 1/70 F5.6. This is a pretty typical result when shooting cine, getting tons more information where in AV or Shutter mode the highlights blow out more, plus gradations such as the window near the top of the frame look superb with cine mode.

Sample image

Very clear example, Wes. Doesn't this make you wonder about hidden parameters in the camera that Canon didn't care to expose at this price
level. I mean, its been said cine mode is changing things like gamma that are
user tweakable on the A1.



Jim

Wes, very interesting. I can see the blown highlights but I am also noticing a softness issue on the cine. Any comments?

I want to look at this more myself.

Tim

I have posted a comparison here:

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92468

I think the Cine "softness" issue is simply a lack of in-camera sharpening in Cine mode.

This is a good thing! You can always sharpen in post. But you can't remove sharpening artifacts from a sharpened image.

Fergus's Cine test frame with medium sharpening, (http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92468) looks about equivalent to the Auto frame (minus the blown out hilites), to my eye.

Mark

Boy am I going to start digging into this. Very interesting. Looks like cine a post processing is the big ticket. Hmmmm...

I locked the exposure at pretty much the auto setting and tried to get zebras looking similar at 70%. When I turned down exposure in AV mode so that the whites weren't so blown the rest of the trailer became much darker. The cine in general just gets more info in the darks and whites, is it just a higher contrast setting for the other modes I wonder. The little bit of contrast control Canon gives you in the effects doesn't do much.

Yes I agree with you Wes - Im starting to think that the cine mode could be very useful indeed

Quick OT question - having just received my HV-20 I haven't hit the manual yet. However, I assume when folks talk about zebra patterns they are talking about off camera monitoring, or does the HV-20 have zebra?

Thanks.

Michael,

It has 70% Zebra, 100% Zebra and Peak. How to use them properly in Cine mode I don't know as its mostly automatic.

Zebra - how to enable it
 

Neither ZEBRA nor PEAKING is listed in the DV20 manual's index. They are described under "assist functions" on page 43. After you select one of the functions, it is toggled by the FOCUS ASSIST button on the LCD display.

That is, FOCUS ASSIST zooms in on the image -- otherwise the zebra/peaking is 'on' and the image is normal size. "Peaking" is edge enhancement which artificially sharpens edges to help you focus.

Thank you very much for the information and references. I use 80 IRE (I would assume the % corresponds) normally for skin, setting the exposure to where the zebra crawl just disappears on the hottest spots. Have to find out where 70% falls in that scheme. In any case, that is a surprising feature for such an inexpensive camera. Still figuring out what other functional gems will turn up. Time to RTFM, methinks.

Michael:

I'm finding usin 100 on the zebra setting and backing exposure off from there to eliminate seems to work pretty well to give you best exposure in the shadows too...

Wes - thanks for your comparison. For me CineMode looks too soft and flat. That and the fact you can't lock a shutter have caused me to shy away from using it. You are right about the highlight issue though. My solution right now is to turn brightness and contrast down one notch -1 (and color depth +1 , sharpness 0) while shooting Tv mode. May revisit CineMode in the future but the idea my shutter could fluctuate makes me very wary of using it.

This might have been mentioned before but Cinema mode seems to try and keep the shutter at 1/48. It's only when you move your aperter to +1 or -1 that it seems to change your shutter.

when you refer to changing the aperture with cine mode... do you mean adjust ing the exposure?


and peter... if you use the stick to turn on exposure adjustment I think it seems to lock all the exposure settings to match

Do you mean when in 24p? I believe you can use Cinema mode at 60i or 24p. Since the cinema mode gives the reduced contast/longer tonal range - what is the advantage of combining 24p with this versus just using it at 60i? -Thanks.

Yes in 24p. I have not tried it in 60i as yet.

..well...(1) Cause it's 24p and (2) I believe it gives you better low light capability while in 24p. What I have noticed is if your are in a decently lit surrounding (where you don't have to manipulate the exposure at all) then it keeps your footage at 1/48 shutter speed. As soon as you toggle the joystick (+ or -) in either direction then that's when the cam tries to compensate and you will notice the effects of the changed shutter speed....ugly .....at least to me.

edit: I'm away from my cam at the moment but I do believe the same rule applies that if you keep the exposure displayed on the screen it should be locked in that position. Maybe someone could verify that......

Yes...sorry for the confusion.

I'm posting two sets of pics below that demonstrate the dynamic range of the TV mode v. Cinemode. I didn't want to start a new thread on topic, to post these, so I hope this isn't taken as hijacking.. The scene is stream with sun filtering through trees and shrubs, and with direct sunlight on stream. In doing the comparison shots, while taping, used exposure adjust to bring down the "zebras" as much as possible without losing shadow detail.

Nice shots Chris. Many people like the higher contrast of the Shutter and Aperture modes but you lose so much detail.

The good thing is, if you apply a simple "levels adjust" on the blacks to the cinema frame, and compare to the TV mode, the contrast and color is better on cine mode, and still you have no clipping on the lights. Just perfect.

Only thing you could miss in this circumstances on cinema mode maybe a lack of sharpness.

Ive done some testing on this and have come to the conclusion that I love the cine mode for not blowing out the highlights and the extra dynamic range. For the sharpness issue I use a medium sharpen in Vegas which brings it up to about the same level as the non cine footage.

That's it, you've convinced me to use the cine setting. Thanks for the tests. I automatically started using TV mode, just to have control over shutter speed.. Although probably only need that for slow motion style clips.

From my experience thus far, I'd say its a good option in contrasty extended range situations, but you don't have to shoot it to the exclusion of others. It should be shoot by shoot call. There are times when you will want the "pop" of the other modes...or the extra control..

Is the Cine mode really less sharp? Or is it just the lowered contrast that makes it look less sharp? I can see if you combine it with the 24p mode and there is motion, you will loose sharpness compared to 60i, but I think that is just because of the motion blur caused by the lower 24 frames/second.

No I think if you compare a static shot in both modes you will see the difference. Apprently the cine mode is based on an A1 preset in which sharpness was -4

I wasn't able to get the sharpness I wanted, using Vegas in post production, with the Cine setting on the HV20. What filters and settings are people using, who are getting results they are pleased with?

I think non-cine mode with Brightness reduced in the Custom Image effects menu gives a good compromise of sharpness with exposure lattitude. It seems to keep highlights from blowing out, without significantly darkening shadow areas.

As an alternative, I tried increasing colour depth, brightness, sharpness and contrast with Cine Gamma, but it is still soft compared to P Mode.
I attach some images, and a low res JPG from my NIKON D70 SLR for comparison.
This is the HV20 at 25P.


Patrick

Here is another comparision with Patrick's footage.

Exactly Chris. And we shouldn't forget aperture mode. Here's an example where using aperture mode makes for a nicer looking shallow DOF because we are able to open it fully as opposed to cine mode where we can't. It's a subtle difference but to my eye it's very apparent.

Aperture vs Cine

Javier,
Please tell me exactly how you made that adjustment to the Cine footage. I spent ages in Vegas, and I could not get the effect you have demonstrated.

By the way, does anyone know if direct HDMI or component output is affected by the in-camera settings? And, even if it is, would it be easier to adjust in post, because it is 4.2.2, and 1920x1080?

Patrick

Nice example Wes... point of all of this is that this camera has a lot more adjustability and control than many are giving it credit for... now if we could do 24p pull down without a major headache...

Chris - join the parade (fixed the link): http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92971