HD-SDI, HDMI...? CMOS RAW via GIGe!

[Serge Victorovich]

Bob, you talk about SI2K camera and Cineform RAW?

[Wayne Morellini]

Interesting, what sort of solution are you using?

Another solution is to take an GigE from the camera, and route through embedded solution to GigE disk solution. If directly from sensor, then somebody posted an GigE sensor board that interfaces to sensor of choice. It is over at the New Cinema camera project thread in alternative imaging.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=96349

Open cores may have FPGA disk solutions.

[Robert Ducon]

I recorded uncompressed 8bit 422 1080 60i from an HV20 to Mac Pro last week - incredible step up from HDV, and very useful. I use the nanoConnect HDMI to HD-SDI convertor to my Decklink HD card (digital capture with a 150 foot coax cable!)

However, I agree with the question - is it worth it to go raw?

I think it'd only be truly useful if the output promised something over what can be captured on this already amazing camera with it's evidently very useful HDMI out. I'd need to see:

a) 10bit option (as I believe that the camera only outputs 8bit now)

or/and

b) 2K resolutions from the sensor

A 1920x1080 4:4:4 8bit option alone wouldn't be worth it over the 4:2:2 8bit that HDMI capture already provides. Worth investigating. True 2k would be killer - in the STILL camera mode, this camera certainly uses enough pixels that it's got! Looks feasable...

[Bob Grant]

Originally Posted by Serge Victorovich

Bob, you talk about SI2K camera and Cineform RAW?

Yes.
If it can be done with this camera it can be done with any sensor / lens or I guess a HDMI -> GigE adaptor could also be built. Only possible issue is I think the HDMI ports are only 8 bit and a fair amount of processing is done before the vision reaches the port on the camera so you certainly wouldn't have all the advantages of recording RAW straight off the imager.

[Serge Victorovich]

4:2:2/ 8 bit is downscaled output from HDMI.
Straight from sensor possible get at least 10(12) bit.
Canon CMOS is 1/2,7" with full resolution 2,96M (2048x1440 ?)
and possible create resolution at 2048x864p24 or capture 720p60.

If for raw data from cmos use smart compression like CineformRAW then stream possible to write onto 2,5" 7200rpm HDD or SDD!

As said David Newman, encoding to CineformRAW need less computation than encode from HDMI to NeoHD or Prospect.

Wayne Morellini also provided link to project "Dirak codec for FPGA". I dont know much about Dirak solution,
but believe it wavelet based as Cineform. If this codec implement to FPGA with ability write to disk...

CMOS(RAW)->FPGA(compressed RAW)->DISK ;)

[Robert Ducon]

Originally Posted by Serge Victorovich

4:2:2/ 8 bit is downscaled output from HDMI.
Straight from sensor possible get at least 10(12) bit.
Canon CMOS is 1/2,7" with full resolution 2,96M (2048x1440 ?)
and possible create resolution at 2048x864p24 or capture 720p60.

Well, yes. Then it'd be cool and worth investigating ;) I've dropped a lot of money into capture to hard disk from an HV20 - so far, the cable, nano-Connect and capture card are near twice as much as the HV20 itself ;) So, if the price was right, an HV20 upgrade would be cool. It's all about value - will the price be right 10bit at 2k sounds yummy.

[Serge Victorovich]

Project a Wearable computer very nice and good for our days.
Compressed RAW from CMOS is our tapeless FUTURE:)
SI2K and RED on this way.
To have a less expensive camcorder need to remember about the wonderful Elphel camera.
This cam with good CMOS sensor and codec as CineformRAW (or Dirak) implemented into FPGA
can be the best choice in the near future.

[Robert Ducon]

I own a 35mm lens adapter and Nikon lenses.. the HV20 is simply the sensor capture medium (which is outputted live via HDMI to hard disk). Honestly, I am using the HV20 mosly for it's HDMI out, it's large CMOS sensor, it's latitude and it's 24P. Great combo for the price!

Soo...

If someone takes a good CMOS sensor and mounts it in place (with magnification) of the ground glass on say, a Cinevate Brevis or Red Rock M2, and adds good computer control support, I'd go for that!

Basically, I'm suggesting a SI 2k system, but a cheaper version with Nikon mounts :D

I wouldn't say it's worth it to add all this support to the HV20 hack because I bet there'll be some start up that's already working on a newer option now :) I challenge Red Rock, SI and RED to make a consumer 2k 10bit option :D

But since this is all chat, sure, someone make a hack for the HV20 :D Thanks for starting this fun thread Serge.

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Robert Ducon

However, I agree with the question - is it worth it to go raw?

I think, like quality difference between DVX100 and Andromeda conversion.

We can only hope that reel-stream could do an HV20 conversion, but an camera with 50fps is preferable. Look at the Andromeda thread and see what they did.

There are an number of people on the DIY cinema camera thread combining to do an FPGA solution, and GigE. join forces (if you haven't already) make it also attachable to camera hack of HV20 and other cameras etc.

What I am going to say is in future, but if you create such an circuit what about build on it to make it configurable to most major low end camera and sensor interfaces (GigE, Industrial etc)? This way, anybody in future can extend the circuit and use in many cameras, but being open also be available to commercial companies to extend and use.

[Robert Ducon]

By worth, I meant, affordable and, long-enough lasting (before a cheaper/better 2k DIY system arises). An indepdant system that is simply a 2k chip, lens mount and simple circuits and GigE out w/computer control. I don't think it'd be long now...

Wayne, yes I'd love to see someone make a DIY 2k kit for the HV20 :D Or any CMOS camera. No, I've not read those threads yet.. I'll give them a peek soon.

[David Braund]

any progress on this?