I backup the opinion that states that if you are gonna color correct in post you want the least digital edge enhancement (artificial digital sharpness, wider black edges on your footage) and the best possible dynamic range (more image latitude, being able to have detail in the bright and dark parts of the image).
Both sharpness (with "unsharp mask filter") and a more contrasty-punchy look (with color curves or levels effect) can be achieved in post.
On the other hand, it is almost impossible to get rid of that fake video-looking edges on video without softening the whole image, and the detail lost on the blacks or the highlight cannot be brought back in post.
I always use cinemode and try to stay in the 1/48 zone of the exposure (I check exposure with the half-pressed photo button trick and dial down exposure until I get the 1/48 shutter). In really low light situations this isn't possible because cinemode keeps going to 1/40, 1/34, 1/30 or 1/24. The good thing is it tries not to use gain. Sometimes I prefer a 1/34 shutter and no gain (using cinemode) than 1/48 with gain (using tv mode), specially because of the increased dynamic range of cinemode that gives me more to play with on post.
I just want to emphasize that I ALWAYS capture my hv20 footage using cineform Neo, remove 3-2 pulldown, color correct in vegas and then render to 24p mpeg2 files for DVD. A lot of work but WONDERFULL results. If you are just going to capture your footage and use it "as is" cinemode might not always be the way to go (even though I would suggest cinemode with contrast set to +1 and color depth to 0 or +1 if no color correction is gonna be done in post)

I agree about having a flat image to start with as well.

I am a compositor and even film footage looks kind of crappy before it gets enhanced and color corrected. Have any of you ever watched a DVD that had deleted scenes and those scene looked really washed out? Well that is because to save money they just puyt thsoe scenes on the DVD as is without color timing since that would cost a lot of money.

If you plan on doing any FX work or keying you want to avoid cinemode and create as clean and flat of a image as you can.

Cinemode is really designed to fake the look of color correcting the footage so consumers can shoot video right out of the camera that looks like it has been enhanced and has a nice pleasing polished look.

Color correction with HDV isn't all that bad on most of todays systems since it can be realtime. At the end of your project you will end up either encoding back to a single HDV stream to go to tape or convert to some other format for disk or web distribution so the entire timeline is going to get rendered anyways. If the entire timeline gets rendered then it isn't going to hurt the footage to color correct it. The 2nd generation is going to happen no matter what you do.

Daniel is right about the constantly changing shutter and f/stop in cinemode dependent upon the lighting. Setup your camera for HDV24p and Cinemode, then just point your camera around the room at different areas of light a dark and check using the half-pressed photo button. You will indeed see many combinations of shutter and f/stop.

Okay guys, doing a 48 Hour Film Festival this weekend, and I am waiting for the ultimate word :). We are shooting the HV20 with the Letus35A, With 4 primes, and maybe a zoom.

Director and I had kind of arrived at using Cinemode, because of the apparent wider latitude, recognizing we may be giving up a bit of shutter control, and also would come out with a bit flatter image. We don't anticipate a lot of time for post.

My one issue with the Cinemode was that it appears a bit flat, in my eyes, and if we weren't doing a lot in post, we may not get the "pop" we might be looking for.

Thoughts on this approach ?

Don't know why I didn't recall this previously, but here's camcorderinfo's mention about the Cinema Mode.

"The other selling point on the Canon HV20 is the Cinema, or CINE, Mode. Independent of 24P, you can also use this color setting with 1080i or 60i shooting modes. The HV20’s CINE mode corresponds to the XH A1’s Cine V mode (Custom Preset #8). This shifts the gamma curve to respond to a greater dynamic range in the lower end, decreases sharpness, and generally reduces saturation."

I don't agree that CINE mode fakes colour correcting - it can't pretend to 'correct' anything - it simply offers a different (overall flatter) look to the image (and I believe this includes adding a curve to the footage to offer more control in post).

CINE mode doesn't look polished unless it's run through colour correcting - but that's the point IMO.

I truly believe its offering greater latitude and less sharpening. I just did some more colour correcting of landscape footage shot in the last few days with the HV20 and wide angle, and yes, it needed work (too flat before hand) but look fantastic after a few touches of the colour wheels while watching the histograms, etc. Blew away some people's expectations of HDV and 'consumer' gear.

Chris, I would suggest CINE to anyone with time for post. You probably won't - 48 hour films don't have time for rendering, sadly :( I'd say, pump up the contrast in the camera in another setting and run and gun. You'll have enough trouble on your hands looking after location audio and ensuring proper focus pulls. Good luck!

CINE Mode + (Colour Correction + Render Time) = Best Image in the end

You know...I was so againts Cinemode before this thread started. I absolutely hated the look..didn't know what advantage it had ...but since then I have been shooting with it more and more...and let me tell you...I found you can do a hell of a lot more with the footage in post than shooting any other way. Whenever I use my histogram in my NLE and throw in an autolevel plugin...it just spreads out nice and easy and the picture stands out even more. I think I'm lovin this Cinemode.

Yes..it looks flat straight out of the box...but that is the way it is supposed to be.

Ian, that's the way I see it! For those that shoot to do post, it works fantastic.

Any ideas on sharpness? I've been shooting with CINE and the custom sharpness to it's lowest setting, but it's looking too soft - even when I do a sharpen in post. What are other's findings?

I've been very happy with the following settings:

CINE MODE with Custom set to -
Sharpness +1
Contrast 0
Brightness -1
Color +1

I find if I dont have time for post the following gives cine mode more contrast and saturation while maintaining the benefit of not blowing out highlights etc. The footage would still benefit from a medium sharpen (I use vegas)

CINE MODE with Custom set to -
Sharpness +1 (this doesnt seem to do much)
Contrast +1
Brightness 0
Color +1

So far these are the settings I have been using:

CINE MODE with Custom set to -
Sharpness +1 (Does nothing to the picture)
Contrast -1
Brightness -1
Color 0

Quite frankly this is working excellent for me. I still want to try it with the contrast set higher but i am a happy camper so far.

Robert I don't even try to sharpen it in post. It is less sharp than normal mode but I find that it makes the overall picture less videoy. Overall it's still sharp with lots of detail. I think my eyes had to warm up to this look and I like especially knowing that I could do a bit more in post with mode.

Thanks for sharing! The reason I asked were this past weekend I had the lucky chance to monitor and colour-correct from the best LCD HD TV i've had the honour of seeing. I twas really nice to see my footage as it was meant to be. Taught me alot about how HDV really looks. I will continue to swear by the HV20 and CINE mode from now on. Sony Z1U and FX1 footage truly looks awful an grainy compared to the Canon.

G Film Chroma Sharpen Plugin really saves HDV footage.. makes 4:2:0 look like it was always 4:2:2. Best post-HDV camera investment yet ($100!)

And Ian, I agree.. it's plenty sharp while retaining the natural look. It amazes me how high Canon set the bar - I am so pleased.

Hey guys, looks like we are all coming to some very similar CINE MODE settings, for me it's:

CINE MODE with Custom set to -
Sharpness +1
Contrast 0
Brightness 0 (or -1 but undecided*)
Color +1

*I say undecided because checking all the subtle changes via TV, I really cannot see that changing the Brightness is making any change at all, not even remotely subtle. I can definitely tell changing the other three settings makes a visually noticable difference, but I'm not convinced that Brightness is doing anything in CineMode. (but I could be wrong)

To reply to Fergus' comments about the Sharpness not seeming to do much. I had thought that originally too, and it took me finding the right subject matter to point the camera at to actually see the differences while monitoring on the TV. I zoomed in all the way onto the strings/frets/pearl-inlays of a guitar neck...it was all those horizontal/vertical lines that actually allowed me to see the difference in sharpness settings. In fact, as I write this, I think I will pull out a spool of thread and test with that as well. Anyway, my conclusion is that the Sharpness setting does make a difference.

Now...if anyone could give me an example of how to prove the Brightness setting under Cine Mode works, please tell me how.

Hmm.. that is good to know. It must be a more subtle change than in the other modes. When I am in TV mode I can see what is happening when I toggle between -1, 0, and +1. But in Cinemode I am unable to tell. This goes to show that we really can't rely on the cams LCD Display to tell us the whole story. Interesting indeed.

Well, after much experimentation, I finally "get" the HV20 much better. I had previously read Barry Green's Controlling Exposure article and admit that is still had me scratching my head about some things.

But, I just came to the realization that if you've got the camera set for HDV(24p) and CineMode, and using the half-pressed photo button, you can pan the camera around the room half-pressing the photo button to check settings, and there can be a "video sweet spot" that's got a shutter speed of 1/48 and and F-stop that produces a really well-lit image...then by changing the EXP setting, you temporarily move away from the 0 setting (I did -1), then immediately back to 0 (then press SET to exit) and the camera will be completely locked into unchanging settings.

I was able to find a "video sweet spot" that allowed me to lock the camera with a F2.2 and 1/48 settings. As I pan around the room and check things out via my TV as a monitor, what I see with my own eyes is what is showing on the TV, and there is absolutely none of the auto-shutter, auto-aperture thingy happening that makes the image change in undesirable ways...continuous re-pressing of the photo button (as you point the camera towards areas that are lighter to darker) completely confirms that all the settings are locked and nothing is changing.

You can then add any additional lighting to taste to fill in any areas that may need some help that cannot come from the camera since its settings are locked.

44 hours of video in one week and 40 were in Cine
 

I just came to this thread blindly and will give you my reason for Cine. I'm a wing it kind of person and definitely not as sophiscated and knowledgeable as most of you. I was shooting video at an 8 day bluegrass festival last week and for some reason I decided to venture away from my usual TV mode to Cine. Frankly, I liked how it looked in the cameral LCD display when I viewed what I was shooting in Cine mode. Once I saw the difference and liked it, I didn't go back to TV for the whole week. I'm now starting to edit my files. I will not be doing any color, contrast or other changes in post. I've already previewed several tapes playing directly from my camera via HDMI to my 32" LCD display and am lovin' what I am seeing. Of course my love of the music and the artists doesn't hurt. So IMHO, I think Cine mode is great and will probably continue to shoot most of my videos in Cine.

John:

How did you mic it ?

Nathan, may I ask you to extract some jpg photos of your videos at sharpness = 0 and at sharpness = +1 (and why not +2) to permit to us to appreciate the exact latitude of these sharpness settings?

Thx

thanks Nathan - it seems pretty subtle but I would love to see some jpg's.

Personally I find an obvious change when putting the contrast to +1 (from -1) It does darken the blacks and loose some of the greyness to the image.

Okay everyone, you asked for a photo showing the differences between the sharpness settings on the Canon HV20. It's actually a .BMP image at about 3.7MB, but when uploaded to Flickr, they turn it into a .JPG image...which actually hasn't lost any of the quality, so you are still able to see the sharpness differences.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1233/...4dff12e5_o.jpg

For those that would still like to see the original .BMP image, you can find that here:

http://vettaville.com/images/canon%2...%20capture.bmp

Well....I'll be a monkeys unc.... that settles that!!!!


Now my question is...is this in the Cinemode setting?

Yes Ian, that is in CineMode. :o) But it also makes me think that it might be good to stick with a setting of 0 when in CineMode and just sharpen in post, which would give you far more control than doing it in-camera. As I said previously before posting the pics, it's a very subtle difference in sharpness, but you can actually see it in the LCD if you really pay extremely close attention as you step through each of the sharpness settings, but you do have to really look for it on the LCD, and it's all subject to something that will really let you see the subtle changes. Granted, having a nice large captured image makes it much more easier to see the differences than the LCD.

I put a dynamic seinheuser (don't know the model but it cost around $125 from the Guitar Center) mic on a stand about 2 to 3 feet in front of the speaker platform and ran a cable to my XLR Pro and into the external mic input. I would say the mic was about 8 to 10 feet off the ground. During the afternoon heat, I setup right under the speaker farm and shot from about 10 foot to the side and 5 foot in front of the stage. I rigged three 25' cables together and ran them over and up the isle to my sixth row isle seat. Their was a 6" PCV pipe cut in half that ran up to the sound guy with the snake under it. I just ran my cable under this pipe and pulled it out by my seat. This is outdoors and on the first day eveyone sets up their chair or chairs and leave them for the whole time they are there. I was at this festival for 8 days. I sat in my chair and taped in the late afternoon and at night. When I taped from under the speaker farm, I just plugged the first cable from the mic to my XLR Pro. I'll post some links. Right now I only have a few clips posted and I think the ones I shot at the stage may have been before I setup the external mic. I'm guessing this because it seems like I hear a little bit more audience than I heard on other tapes. The first one below, I shot right near where I was camped and setup my mixer and a couple mics to tape a family jam. It was one of my first tapings and it was in TV mode. I'm not sure if I chose the best output for my website or not. I'm seeing a little distortion on my LCD display at work but I went to another computer with a standard CRT monitor and it looked fine. I captured, edited, and rendered these with Pinnacle 10.7. I'm not a pro. This is just a hobby connected with my passion for this music.

http://www.johnhartford.org/video/be...ldJoeClark.wmv

http://www.johnhartford.org/video/be...idge-Part3.wmv

http://www.johnhartford.org/video/be...cial-Part3.wmv

PS - My software doesn't have color wheels so I'm not sure if I can do the kind of post tweaking that I see people say needs to be done with Cine recordings. If I upgrade to a more sophisticated RLE, I may experiment a little but for now I'll go with how it comes from the tape.

I would use Cinemode all the time if it was possible to use 120-250shutter speed.. Canon, uhää why did you crush the possibility =(

Wow! What a cool forum. I'm a proud owner of a HV20 and have followed this thread from the get. First, I'd like to thank everyone for posting their experiences with this camera as it has saved me many hours of figuring all this out. I had this thought that perhaps many of you more expert users of the HV20 might consider producing an E-book, a professional users guide for this camera? Just a thought, I for one would buy it.

John:

I just previewed the first one. My DSL is hanging a bit here today, but I'll download all later. Thanks for posting them. I saw the first one, and it was very nice and the sound was great.

My brother and his wife are long time musicians and are heavy into the blue grass scene here in California. The go to two big events a year, both at Strawberry Lake in the Sierras, one on Memorial Day weekend, the other on Labor Day.

I am amazed at how this camera can do so much.

In a 48 Hour Film shoot I was in this weekend, we shoot with my Sennheiser ME66 run through a field mixer. This first time I used a field mixer on anything. It was great to be able to level the camera using the generated tone, and the result was consistent and clean sound-- at least as good as you can get it in a 48 Hour film festival setting....

Chris...do you recall what dB level the generated tone was at? And how were you able to level the camera since it only shows a couple different dB settings in the LCD?

You still can tweak your footage with basic edition software, try the contrast, sharpness, color settings to give more "punch" to the image. You can also try subtle changes in the "hue" setting to make the image warmer or colder.

Many thanks, Nathan, for the comparison of the sharpness setting in Cinemode.

So, I presume that, spite some users' posts saying the contrary, the color, Brigthness and contrast adjustments are appliable on the Cinemode too.

The tone generated was a 1 KB tone, if I recall, and we ran it to 12 on the DB meter on the camera. We saw the film tonight at the theater, and we certainly had it right because the sound was a lot better than most of the productions.

I actually just shot a full tape using CineMode outdoors in bright daylight. I had hesitated before b/c I was concerned I'd end up with shutter speeds of 1/100th or more. But even in the brightest conditions, the SS held at 1/48th. I think the SS drift will be more likely at the low end but I know I can check my my SS and apeture and then lock EXP.

As to the quote above, yes Bruno, you can use the Custom settings while in CineMode. I'm shooting color depth +1, contrast +1, sharpness +1, brightness 0. No blown highlights, good sharpness and better contrast. I had been shooting Tv mode with color depth +1, sharpness 0, and contrast and brightness -1 but I was still getting some blown highlights and little too much contrast for my tastes. (I always shoot in 24p BTW). So I'm happy CineMode seems to stick to 1/48th as much as it does. I'll probably be using it exclusively now.

I wish I had your expertise
 

Boy Chris, I wish I had your expertise along with a few others here in this and the HV20 forum. I have many years computer experience, about 2 years video camera experience, and a year or so monkeying with improving sound capture while shooting video. I'd like to go to a festival and know exactly what to do to capture the best audio and video with what I have and not need to wing it like I usually do. Example: I had no idea when I setup the mics for the camp jam where to position them and if they were to close together whether that would be a problem. I have a $100 headset and I would either plug into the mixer or the camera and move the mics around and adjust the mixer till I felt I was getting a decent sound. This doesn't seem to be a very professional way of doing things. I noticed that I can't seem to rely on what I hear when plugging th headset into the camera for monitoring. It usually records a lot better quaility than what I hear this way. It seems like I get a much better feel for the audio when I listen to the output from the mixer (not the master out) but I'm not sure. I also wasn't sure how for I needed to place the mic in front of the stage speaker farm. It was so loud that it actually hurt my ears to be near the farm and even sound distorted at times but the mic seemed to pick it up OK. I'll post some samples soon of some stage performances I know for sure came from the mic near the speakers.

Peter Im pretty much in the same boat as you, although -1 for contrast and brightness helps in TV mode I still think cine is the way to go and like you said by upping the contrast in cine you gain some contrast without blowing the highlights. It sharpens well in post so Im happy :)

Thanks for your answer.

But I presume that the fact the HV20 sticks to 1/48th even in Cinemode have more to do with the the selection of the 24p mode. I just say that because people can confuse your remark: Cinemode changes the averall look (gamma, contrast,...) to mimic the film color look, but the 1/48th comes from your choice of 24p.

Personnally, I've planned to use the Cinemode in normal interlaced mode.

Gotcha. But I can't answer that question since I've never put my camera in 60i. I'd guess you'd be around 1/60th, maybe someone else can address that.

never mind
I think I misunderstood the post I was replying to.

The main issue I see is that we're concerned with the shutter passing 1/48, but reports in this thread are saying it's sticking close to it.

Is that what most others are finding? (How do we check again?)

In cinemode it basically sticks to 1/48th unless you are shooting in too low light. Unfortunately, at that point it starts to quickly jump to 1/32, 1/24 etc

Press down the still photo button half way and the info will appear in your display

Yes, but don't forget you can lock it in 1/48 by locking the total exposure. Again, other are setting an exposure by using a cell phone screen, or a PS2 screen to lcok the exposure, and then use the exposure adjustment to open up a bit. They can monitor the shutter speed by half way depressing the photo button and see what the Canon adjustments are as the exposure is adjusted.

Found this: http://videotreffpunkt.com/thread.php?threadid=2488 a really nifty software that tells you the gain so you can calibrate your cam.