HV20: to CINE MODE or not
 

Can anyone explain exactly what is "technically" taking place to the image when using the Cine Mode setting on the HV20. Just saying that the setting achieves a "film-look" does nothing to explain the technical specs.

Does Cine Mode change things dynamically or is it fixed and unchanging?

Is it a cinematic color-scheme?

Could the results of Cine Mode be recreated in post editing in Vegas?

In other words, if it's something you could recreate with software, then why use it on captured footage to begin with?

Cine mode seems to have a much lower contrast setting than the other modes which helps maintain more dynamic range... at least that's been my experience. You can't get that information back in post.

I shoot in CINE mode pretty much all the time (unless I really need to get that shutter speed up).

Film look? I wouldn't go that far. It does make the image different than 'standard video'... it seems to give more dynamic range which allows me to tune it more in post (get more contrast only if I want).

I don't think it could be recreated in post. In my experience, it gives you more image to play with in post.

I'm interested in what others have to say about it.

I've seen some speculation that this mode cannot not be duplicated by the manual settings on the camera. Other speculation is that the setting is ported in from a Canon A1 preset. To me, that would mean that there is more on board the camera than we get access to.... so some hacker may come up with a way to access more in this camera.

I do agree that the setting does give the appearance of a more dynamic range, but whether that is technically possible is another question. I also agree that it seems easier to modify and correct color because this setting appears to depress the higher settings of this camera in the other modes.

Not
 

I vote "Not" on CineMode. The fact that I can't lock my shutter (without locking my overall exposure) kills it. But also the increased gamma/decreased contrast makes the image too "grey" and too soft for me. Haven't tried but I think you could come pretty close to your own version of CineMode using Vegas.

I, too, find this an interesting question, which prompts several questions for Cinemode users.

Why do you use it?

How do you use it, ie do you usually tweak custom settings (sharpness, etc) and for what reasons? Any info on the use of custom settings is appreciated.

Isn't the Cinemode image a bit softer (ie, have less resolution) than other settings, or is that my imagination?

How does that image provide greater latitude in post?

Some posters in this thread have already stated their reasons somewhat, but I'd love to hear others, too. Thanks.

Presently, I use tv mode and toggle to get my exposure manually.

best,
elmer

Well, I just emailed Canon customer support asking if they could provide a white-paper or some sort of technical explanation as to what takes place technically with Cine Mode. I'd be pleased if they actually do answer my question, guess we'll see.

Chris, you mentioned about the possibility of it being a ported preset from the Canon A1, which preset are you talking about?

Elmer, I agree with you that is seems like Cinemode is a bit softer image, but perhaps it is our imagination. Since this camera is so new to me, I'm still experimenting with settings to see which footage looks best to my eyes.

there is no doubt that cine is softer but it sharpens well in vegas.

i find that in 25p cine alters the shutter but in 50i cine mode keeps the shutter at 50 no matter I chuck at it!

there are two main things CINE mode is good for in my mind, dynamic range and a clean image. CINE mode is probably softer because image sharpening is turned down. That is a good thing, you can always clip blacks/highlights and increase contrast and add sharpening in post. It is much more difficult to undo them in post when the image has been recorded with digital sharpening and high contrast. A nice log light response curve is generally a good thing, a good 8bit log or log-like curve is as close as we are going to get to getting 10bit linear info, and it's the best way to fit 8 stops or more of range into an 8bit image. If you are ever doing any effects with your video, you're going to want to sharpen AFTER adding the effects, not in-camera when capturing. In-camera sharpening just further taxes a video compression codec that is already trying to compress a lot of data into an incredibly small file.

I saw a reference in passing while looking at one of the earlier threads on this camera, but I haven't had time to go back and track it down. Since I don't have an A1, I didn't pay much heed to it. And, as I indicated, it was speculation from someone who had an A1.

This is right on.... I ve notices that captures in a lot of the top end cameras for "film" start out with a flat looking image. I used Cinemode on a couple projects now, and noted that they were easy to add or subtract brightness, contrast or color correction.

Just got Canon's response, not much of one really.

Canon Customer Service:

"Thank you for your inquiry. We value you as a Canon customer and appreciate the opportunity to assist you with the HV20. This is an effect you can create post in production as well. It is capturing the same 60fps but excluding all but 24fps, since that is what is used for cinematic movies. You can achieve the same results using a filter in software like Magic Bullet. However, most of our consumers feel that the camera's effect is more realistic."

Yeah, that doesn't cut it. I don't believe it.. rather talk to an engineer, thanks.

That response from Canon seems like it's referring to 24p and not the "Cinemode" setting?

Someone earlier mentioned shooting flat, and to me that's what this mode does and is good for. Also, I think the Gamma curves are more "cinematic".

Shooting flat is the best way to shoot if you plan to color correct and do effects work (but mainly color correct). It's also the best way to shoot if you're looking to do a filmout.

I shoot with the Panasonic Varicam a lot and use the "FILM REC" mode which is VERY flat, but it gives you the most dynamic range. If you've every shot film before it's amazing how washed out and flat a good negative looks before you go through a telecine. Typically you'd do high-end correction on Varicam footage like this in a DaVinci suite (just like with film).

Likely though HV20 footage is not going to go this route, but I think it's doing a similar thing. I use it, but I probaby use TV mode more to keep my shutter at a constant 1/48.

I don't think it's really expanding the camera/sensor's dynamic range. It just takes all the contrast out of the image so no highlights clip and your shadows are kinda murky. You can do the same by underexposing your image in non-CineMode. Then try bringing up your midtones in your editng software to create a nice cinematic look. That's what Solomon did on the "Rainy Day" footage everyone loved.

"I use it, but I probaby use TV mode more to keep my shutter at a constant 1/48."

What's the advantage of 1/48? I mean, are you more concerned with the shutter speed dropping UNDER or more conerned with it going OVER 1/48? I'm fine with CINE as long as the shutter doesn't obviously go too low..

There's been quite a few of these cine mode discussion threads already, not complaining, just saying.

The DVInfo HV20 overview page references the A1's preset #8 in regards to cine mode...

"There's a Cine color mode available as well, which can be used with or without 24p. It's actually based on one of the Custom Presets included with the Canon XH A1 and G1 camcorders, number 8 (Cine.V.) The parameters of that preset are Gamma: Cine 1, Knee: Low, Black: Stretch, Sharpness: -4, Color Matrix: Cine 1, Color Gain: -20, Color Phase: +5, Red-Blue: -5, Green-Red: -5, Blue-Red: +5, and Red-Green: +12. When the HV20 begins shipping in April, it'll be interesting to see how this Cine color option matches up with Custom Preset 8 from an XH A1."

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv20overview.php

1/48 is the ideal shutter speed you want to use when shooting 24p. It is equivalent to a 180 degree shutter on a film camera. If you don't lock it and it goes up or down you can get different effects. If it goes up you'll start to see more of a "Saving Private Ryan" look (studdery), and if it goes down the image can "streak" or have "trails".

The camera will try and auto adjust this to compensate for exposure if it's not locked. However, if you lock the exposure in Cine mode the shutter will lock too, but when/if the exposure changes the shutter can/will move if you're not careful. That's why I've mainly shot in TV mode.

Blake (or anyone else for that matter) if one did not want to use cinemode wouldn't lowering the contrast setting in TV mode also help you in regards to dynamic range thus preventing you from blowing out the highlights?

Ian, I haven't messed with that much myself. Pretty much been shooting with the Image Effect on OFF. The Neutral setting looks descent to my eye though (haven't tested it however).

But, yes, if you tweak contrast and lower the sharpening I'm fairly sure you can achieve the same thing (or close) to help protect highlights (and I always use zebras). Just need to do some test/comparisons.

Only thing I'm not sure of is if there are film style gamma curves being added to the Cine mode that help out.

I've been shooting -1 contrast, -1 brightness (and color depth 0 or +1) (sharpness 0) in the custom settings for this reason (I shoot Tv mode, 24p.)

Blake and Peter thanks. I assumed the same answer but lately I have been reading a lot of user opinions on Cinemode and how that function is doing something "extra" in the background to establish more dynamic range. I was hoping one could at least come close to doing the same thing in TV mode. I see from your answers that keeping contrast and sharpening down can help protect your footage from blown highlights (and of course using zebras to possibly underexpose your aperture a little).

The small amount of contrast adjustment afforded by the "-1" setting doesn't match what the cinemode setting does.

agreed

When in TV mode I also use contrast -1 and brightness -1 and while this helps to prevent the highlights being blown out it is no way compares to the latitude of cine. I like both looks but prefer cine for most things. I sharpen in vegas and am happy with the results.

I was assuming that a brightness-1 would merely shift all brightness down, thus "floor-ing" some of the darker areas while introducing a sub-white cealing. Not your experience?

From what I understand, brightness only effects autoexposure. It just causes it to tend to autoexpose down a little. If you are locking exposure and setting it manually, it shouldnt really make any difference.

That is correct.

If you want to lower the overall brightness while you're setting the exposure manually, you just lower the overall brightness by dialing down the exposure.

Well, I did a little bit of experimenting last night with the HV20 connected directly to my TV so that I could visually see what was happening to the image when I manually changed the different parameters on the camera. That was a helpful learning experience that helped me to better comprehend what takes place with the settings.

I will say this about CineMode, seeing what it does to the image while looking at my TV, I actually did like what it was doing to the image overall. At first, the overall colors seemed far more dull than I would have preferred, but once I did a manual white-balance, that made them appear more pleasing to the eye, while still retaining a somewhat duller nature. But at least the CineMode setting still looked very natural to the point that any image changes you might want to make could easily be done post.

But the biggest improvement I noticed when using CineMode (while looking at the TV) was how much more detail was uncovered in the darker/shadow areas of the image. With CineMode OFF (and trying some of the other settings), there were areas of shadow that looked very dark with no discernable details - details that I could clearly see with my own eyes that the camera could not see. But when I switched to CineMode, I could suddenly see into those shadow/dark areas, there was much more viewable detail in those shadows.

I think I like CineMode after all because it seems like it creates a safer, easier to work with in post image that may initially appear somewhat bland or very neutral looking, but at least you could easily alter that neutral look into something more. So I think it might be good for others to hook the HV20 up to their TV/HDTV and play around with the settings to get a better idea of how they can affect the captured image.

Cine mode gamma demo
 

I'll back that up: there's much more shadow and highlight detail in Cine mode. Because I haven't seen any other links, here are two stills (full size, high quality JPEGs) of Cine- and P-modes of the same scene, taken one after the other. They're hardly great shots, but they illustrate the gamma change nicely. Check out the blown highlights, dark shadows and general oversharpening in P-mode. Ingest via Final Cut 6, then copied and pasted from QuickTime Player into Photoshop.

http://twelvefives.com/images/HV20-cine.jpg
http://twelvefives.com/images/HV20-P.jpg

Hey Iain, thanks for posting those comparison pics. That's something I had thought about doing to prove my point about CineMode, but you did a great job and those pics clearly show how much of an improvement that CineMode can have upon the image overall.

Now I've just got to convince myself that 24p is as equally as good running alongside CineMode. LOL!!!

This is what I suspected in my own footage, and why I shoot in CINE. I shoot for post! :D Dull = safe image. I always colour correct to 'perfection' - I'm glad you and others are seeing results of this latitude range. What a wonderful little camera - thank you Canon.

And thank you Ian, for posting those stills.

For me, after extensive tests, the best image quality from the HV20 is to use CineMode (and 24p) and then bump up the parameters in the custom functions such that sharpness is +1, contrast +1 and color depth and brightness are either 0 or +1 depending on what I'm shooting. BUT I still won't use CineMode because unless I lock exposure (which isn't always practical) it can change my shutter speed above or below 1/48th to compensate.. So I'm using Tv mode, contrast -1, brightness -1, color depth 0 or +1, sharpness 0. It's not as good as CineMode with bumped sharpness and contrast, but I don't have to worry about a variable shutter speed. (If you have a scene where the exposure doesn't vary, CineMode could be the way to go.)

I spoke to Canon in person yesterday and they are willing to get a rep. on our BB to help us out......let's see.

I don't think the sharpness function even works when in Cinemode. You might be able to toggle it + or - but it does nothing to the video. The only way would be in post.

Straying off topic, but... ah well. :)

I'm using progressive all the time, but that's because I'm in the happy-go-lucky 25P of PAL-land. No pulldown, no post-processing, and it looks great. Final Cut just treats it as a 50i stream.

The progressive look is just what I want, most of the way to a film look and very solid. I had a progressive camcorder years ago, with Canon's MV20i. It shot progressive at some slight resolution cost, but the picture looked solid. The picture (of course!) looks bad by today's standards, so I'm very glad to see progressive arrive in consumer HD.

Straying further off-topic, because the data rate is the same for 30 and 25 fps HDV, I'd have to suspect the picture quality is slightly better in PAL, too. I'll guess that this applies to 60i's 24P as well, because of the space wasted in encoding for pulldown.

Oh, I should probably stray back on-topic to say that Cine mode is not always appropriate if you're *not* going to post-process your footage. In a forest under dappled sunlight, everything looked pretty mushy in Cine mode. Difficult environment, sure, but bear that in mind.

That is also my experience. there was a discernable difference puting sharpness to +1 in TV mode but not (sadly) in cine

I find that cine gives me more dynamic range so I actually prefer to use it in those type of shots. I recently took some test footage in the New Forest and the cine footage looked much better with the demands of a patchy sun soaked forest. It managed to not blow out highlights while not adding gain to see the lowlights

There is no free lunch in this game of trying to get more dynamic range/contrast. With very limited dynamic range of only 6-7 stops on these DVs (probably more limited on HD sensors) vs 11 stops in real cinematography you have a very small budget in dynamic range. You can choose to spend in mid-tone or more spreadout at both ends. The result is trading detail in midtone for more of that in highlight and dark area.

As an example you can think of a scene with bright midday sun light and deep shadow which has about 10 stops of dynamic range. Now you are trying to capture this scene of 1024 greyscale with a device that has only 64 greyscale. You can either try to map midrange more accurately but clipping at both ends or more evenly map all the 1024 onto 64 levels but losing the resolution in mid range. I think what Cine is doing in principle is simply getting rid off the dreaded DV lightlight blownout at the expense of losing some details in midtone. You can ramp up the contrast in post but you can not recover the greyscale resolution loss in the middle for all three colors. So in the end the limits of the sensor really force us to pick our poison here.

The more I work with the HV20, using its LCD or my TV to monitor what kinds of visual changes take place with changing all the different parameters, the more I'm inclined to think that there is no such thing as "the perfect setting" on this camera (perhaps any camera) that will capture the image "exactly" as I see it with my naked eye in terms of color, white balance, contrast, etc.

But I think I am finally starting to get a better grasp of making things look much better with changing the parameters. But...I do have to say this, I've gotten in the habit of switching the camera back to AUTO for comparison purposes, and AUTO really does look very good indeed. In fact, there have been times where I'm very pleased with the manual settings I've dialed in indoors, then move that switch to AUTO and suddenly see an even better result. So I guess you can't really have it all in one camera at all times. There is always some kind of compromise in doing things one way or the other.

Like Lee has rightly said above...we're forced to pick our poison. But at least the HV20 is an awesome camera, that's a given!

Um, I've seen some impressive HD sensors. With greater dynamic range. Than most DV cameras I've used. Sure, limited, but 8 stops isn't poor by any means IMO.