HV20 Sensor Problem

Christopher Ruffell · March 1st, 2008, 01:04 AM

Paul, Dave, Ian, thank you.

I agree - it shouldn't take much on their behalf to fix this. I'm seeking fair treatment, and as you've all suggested, I've gone beyond what I should have to.

I've called in the recent past, and talked with their customer service via phone and only keep getting referred or past along to the same-level of customer service rep. It goes in cycles, but I'll start persisting with the calls.

In short, I require to talk to someone who can actually make a decision, but I haven't been referred to a supervisor, which I need. Thank you DVInfo members, for support, which I am very grateful for!

Christopher Ruffell · March 30th, 2008, 03:52 PM

I have spoken more times with Canon again to no avail. With a mere two weeks left on the original warranty, I did as the customer support person on the phone suggested and sent the HV20 back along with a DVD containing video and still images and an HDV tape.

Supportive comments on this thread are wonderful, but when I talk to Canon, I'm still one person doing it alone in the end. In reality, it doesn't seem like there was much more I could do than I've done thus far. My complaint wasn't taken anymore seriously than it was originally despite having more proof, a letter, a production that was jeopardized, stress, etc. No one offered to personally look into it; not at the store level, not Canon phone support, not the Canon tech's via e-mail. It’s all been ‘good luck with that’.

I used the HV20 as I would use an XL-H1 – as a professional piece of equipment.

Despite ‘being a professional’, my background didn't make any difference in how I was dealt with, so I assume the average Canon customer is dealt with in this fashion. Perhaps if it was an XL-H1 it would have been looked at differently, but despite the professional orientation of the project I used my Canon product on, there’s nothing to lead me to believe if I owned an XL-H1 I’d be any better off. Imagine two months without your most crucial tool…

In the end, one could say Canon is a business doing business dealing with a customer’s malfunctioning product (a manufacturer’s defect I should add). Canon’s conduct isn’t meant to be personal so I shouldn’t take it personally; I would think it would be called professional conduct. Follow the book. However, I think there's a point where reason and fairness to come into play.

In the very least, the first time it was sent back, I believe I should have been giving an extension on my warranty equal to the time that it took to (mis)repair my purchase. That is more than 100% fair, especially considering the time/money spent to deal with this situation to have the camera sent away, and the warranty time eaten up by the product not being in my hands to use for two months. Also consider it wasn’t fixed, and I’ve had to repeat this process, and now it’s off again.

Chris Hurd · March 30th, 2008, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Nixon

Canon Canada warranty states "Defective parts will be exchanged for new parts or, at Canon Canada's option, comparable rebuilt parts for a period of ONE YEAR from the date of original purchase...

So, yes, they do offer "exchange" service, as per the warranty.

Sorry but your assumption of exchange service is entirely incorrect -- it clearly states that defective *parts* will be exchanged, not the camera itself. For what it's worth, that's the same policy for all camcorder manufacturers, not just Canon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher Ruffell

I used the HV20 as I would use an XL-H1 – as a professional piece of equipment.

But that's not what is it is though. The HV20 is very much a *consumer* camcorder, because the company that manufactures it says so. It doesn't matter how you're using it.

Quote:

Despite ‘being a professional’, my background didn't make any difference in how I was dealt with, so I assume the average Canon customer is dealt with in this fashion. Perhaps if it was an XL-H1 it would have been looked at differently…

Bingo. If it were an XL or XH series camera, that's an entirely different level of service. There's an owner's club with certain benefits, including the provision of loaner cameras (when available) while yours is in service, plus other perks which are not available to owners of consumer camcorders.

Again, how you're using the gear does not matter as much as how the manufacturer defines the gear it makes -- there is a big difference between consumer support and professional support and you have encountered it.

Switch brands if you like, but you'll find the experience similar among all the major camcorder manufacturers. My strong advice to anyone using a consumer camcorder in a business / professional capacity is to make sure that you have at least one more of them on hand when unfortunate circumstances occur, as they are bound to happen (remember Murphy's Law).

Christopher Ruffell · March 30th, 2008, 06:46 PM

Hi Chris. As a reminder, you yourself said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Don't settle for anything less than a replacement. Let us know how it goes please,

I asked for a replacement, like you suggested after my HV20 was returned not in working order. I discovered through their phone support that this is not an option they offer.

In terms of professional gear, I gather customer-manufacturer relationships will play out as they play out (no one can tell you what your experience will be with a company or purchase) - all anyone can offer is their own personal anecdotal histories as a guide. Everyone will have their own personal experience, and experiences can vary.

All the same, just letting everyone all know how it goes for me - my own personal story. All I wish is for my Canon HV20 to eventually be returned in working order and that no one else has this experience.

Chris Hurd · March 30th, 2008, 07:36 PM

All I was saying is that full camera replacement is in no way stipulated by the warranty.

For what it's worth, *I* certainly think they should replace your camera.

I said that then and stick by it now.

Don Palomaki · March 31st, 2008, 06:53 AM

Just be aware that some companies consumer equipment warranty only covers consumer use, not professional use, and 4 weeks or more is not uncommon turnaround for consumer gear warranty service.

A significant part of the additional cost of professional equipment is the quality control during manufacture, and the service backing the equipment after sale.

For some consumer gear the maker may send a replacement rather than repairing the gear. They do which ever makes cost sense to them.

Ian G. Thompson · March 31st, 2008, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Bingo. If it were an XL or XH series camera, that's an entirely different level of service. There's an owner's club with certain benefits, including the provision of loaner cameras (when available) while yours is in service, plus other perks which are not available to owners of consumer camcorders.

As I mentioned earlier I recently had my HV20 repaired but my experience was sort of going backwards. I called the repair shop directly instead of Canon first. Upon sending in my cam and speaking with Canon "after the fact" Canon told me they could have offered me more..including giving me a loaner cam. I experienced something like this with my panasonic GS500 also. The point is Canon does try to accomodate you when your hardware is being repaired...whether consumer or prosumer. But like you mentioned...it would be up to the repaire shop's available supply of loaner cams...... Just thought I'd mention it.....

Dave Blackhurst · March 31st, 2008, 12:18 PM

I suspect Canada and US have "different" ideas of "customer service", and that may be the problem for the OP. Consumer protection laws also vary widely, and sadly it's not uncommon to provide the minimal level of "service" - what sets a company apart is whether they "go the extra" when it's needed.

I agree it's a 1K consumer camera, but that's still a lot of doughnuts... and I don't see Canon arguing that they didn't intend people to buy the HV20 (or a couple of them) as a backup or second angle cam in a pro environment!

I don't know if Canada has "lemon law", but this sure would qualify in the states. Typically the MFR has a reasonable amount of time or attempts to affect a repair, and if they can't, they MUST replace or refund.

It's a pain to push the issue, but sometimes you have to, and I'd look up lemon law and warranty of merchantability (a manufacturer by selling a product effectively is required to warrant that it is suitable and will work as advertised and expected). This doesn't mean they have to guarantee a consumer product will survive in a "professional" environment per se, but it does mean if the camera wouldn't have worked (as in it's not malfunctioning because of abuse and would have malfunctioned in it's expected use) it should be covered.

The principle is simple, you pay your money, you expect the thing to work, and if it doesn't, there are typically legal remedies to protect the consumer from being stuck. What is really a shame here is that "the customer comes first" hasn't applied - that will make me a loyal customer EVERY time, but burn me once, I'll tell everyone I know not to patronize or buy from you. I'd rather spend my money with companies and establishments that make things right than with ones who won't, and I do...

Vincent Cortez · July 8th, 2008, 04:19 PM

I also had this strange line ruin some great footage. It started off as a hairline on the left side of the frame, barely visible. But as time progressed it became more apparent and I noticed it right after my warranty ran out.

I sent my camera into Canon, knowing they would charge me for the repair but they are unable to tell me what the exact problem is. Now Chris mentions in the middle of the thread that Canon repaired his circuit board first, sending him back his HV20, in the same unusable condition. I have tried to check and make sure the same thing does not happen to me or anybody else with the problem.

Canon says that there are not enough errors to perform a mass recall on those sensors (which I fear it may be). I am curious as to how many users on here or anywhere for that matter are or have experienced this problem...

Christopher Ruffell · August 20th, 2008, 02:01 AM

To give credit where credit is due, Canon has since taken back and repaired my camera within a reasonable two-three period. They replaced the CMOS sensor on the original camera, as I had predicted, which was the culprit. I sent a very detailed TV DVD with example videos and stills illustrating the problems.

Since I use it for production, the camera has since been run through it's paces on set and has proven it's running 100% as it should.

An inconvenient series of events, indeed. The timing was poor, especially for an early adopter with a new product that 'failed' so very early in it's life. It could have been handled different, even if it was handled the standard Canon way. Eventually, it's been fixed, and I'm back to trusting it and using it in my workflow - video production. It is really an incredible camera, and when I do move to solid-state, I fully intend to keep it around as B camera for a long time to come - especially since I have no plans yet to move to solid state. ;)

Aside from Vincent, i've not heard of any other cases of this problem, at all. I've scoured the net and spoken to Canon and Canon resellers, and no one has seen anything similar. That said, Vincent, how is your situation?

If Canon makes a camera that fits my needs in terms of features and price (value), then I'll buy from them again. My main real complaint is lack of the human factor presented from Canon; I never once was put through to someone who could make decisions, so no one person I was ever in contact with took responsibility or offered solutions that could have made a difference. Also, I never saw any indication that if I was an owner of an XH-G1 that I would have been treated differently, so I'm a bit more cautious when it comes to even trusting my own equipment when it comes to production. Buyer beware, sure, but there was no real alternate course of action other than buying two units from the get go to have a backup for my shoot-date, and having a rental unit prepped, just in case either of those fell through.

If anything further happens, I'll be certain to update this thread, and if anyone has heard of similar cases, please let us know, thank you.

Vincent Cortez · December 24th, 2008, 02:41 AM

Well... I received my HV20 back from Canon in time to work on a large project. Upon receiving the camera I tested it in the same fashion which I used to really determine the problem and it was gone. The invoice said they replaced the "ccd device"(even though it uses a CMOS).

I shot for a little over two months. However I recently noticed that the camera appears to be acting up again. The hairline vertical line is starting to rear it's ugly thin head again. I will be conducting more low light tests to determine this but I am almost certain that the same problem is returning...

Chris R. after having your camera "fixed" has the problem totally vanished? HAs anyone noticed this on their HV20/30?

Christopher Ruffell · December 24th, 2008, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Cortez

Well... I received my HV20 back from Canon in time to work on a large project. Upon receiving the camera I tested it in the same fashion which I used to really determine the problem and it was gone. The invoice said they replaced the "ccd device"(even though it uses a CMOS).

I shot for a little over two months. However I recently noticed that the camera appears to be acting up again. The hairline vertical line is starting to rear it's ugly thin head again. I will be conducting more low light tests to determine this but I am almost certain that the same problem is returning...

Chris R. after having your camera "fixed" has the problem totally vanished? HAs anyone noticed this on their HV20/30?

Yes, my camera has been absolutely flawless since the second (successful) repair.

Vincent, do you have any footage to display this problem? My camera was sent away twice - the first time they replaced what I would call the mother/daugther circuit board (despite me suggesting that it was the sensor), and the second time, they replaced the sensor - which fixed it. I've shot a lot more footage with it since - it's been 'on' probably between 20+ hours since, so I'm very confident that it's been properly fixed.

I'm sorry to hear that yours is acting up again; my suggestion, include video footage on a DVD and send it back again - there's a 3-month warranty regarding any repairs (at leastat Canon Canada). Let us know what happens.

March 30th, 2008, 07:36 PM	#20
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	All I was saying is that full camera replacement is in no way stipulated by the warranty. For what it's worth, I certainly think they should replace your camera. I said that then and stick by it now. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 31st, 2008, 06:53 AM	#21
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,487	Just be aware that some companies consumer equipment warranty only covers consumer use, not professional use, and 4 weeks or more is not uncommon turnaround for consumer gear warranty service. A significant part of the additional cost of professional equipment is the quality control during manufacture, and the service backing the equipment after sale. For some consumer gear the maker may send a replacement rather than repairing the gear. They do which ever makes cost sense to them. __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

July 8th, 2008, 04:19 PM	#24
Vincent Cortez Tourist Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 3	HV20 Vertical Line problem I also had this strange line ruin some great footage. It started off as a hairline on the left side of the frame, barely visible. But as time progressed it became more apparent and I noticed it right after my warranty ran out. I sent my camera into Canon, knowing they would charge me for the repair but they are unable to tell me what the exact problem is. Now Chris mentions in the middle of the thread that Canon repaired his circuit board first, sending him back his HV20, in the same unusable condition. I have tried to check and make sure the same thing does not happen to me or anybody else with the problem. Canon says that there are not enough errors to perform a mass recall on those sensors (which I fear it may be). I am curious as to how many users on here or anywhere for that matter are or have experienced this problem...

August 20th, 2008, 02:01 AM	#25
Christopher Ruffell Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 202	This story has come to an end... To give credit where credit is due, Canon has since taken back and repaired my camera within a reasonable two-three period. They replaced the CMOS sensor on the original camera, as I had predicted, which was the culprit. I sent a very detailed TV DVD with example videos and stills illustrating the problems. Since I use it for production, the camera has since been run through it's paces on set and has proven it's running 100% as it should. An inconvenient series of events, indeed. The timing was poor, especially for an early adopter with a new product that 'failed' so very early in it's life. It could have been handled different, even if it was handled the standard Canon way. Eventually, it's been fixed, and I'm back to trusting it and using it in my workflow - video production. It is really an incredible camera, and when I do move to solid-state, I fully intend to keep it around as B camera for a long time to come - especially since I have no plans yet to move to solid state. ;) Aside from Vincent, i've not heard of any other cases of this problem, at all. I've scoured the net and spoken to Canon and Canon resellers, and no one has seen anything similar. That said, Vincent, how is your situation? If Canon makes a camera that fits my needs in terms of features and price (value), then I'll buy from them again. My main real complaint is lack of the human factor presented from Canon; I never once was put through to someone who could make decisions, so no one person I was ever in contact with took responsibility or offered solutions that could have made a difference. Also, I never saw any indication that if I was an owner of an XH-G1 that I would have been treated differently, so I'm a bit more cautious when it comes to even trusting my own equipment when it comes to production. Buyer beware, sure, but there was no real alternate course of action other than buying two units from the get go to have a backup for my shoot-date, and having a rental unit prepped, just in case either of those fell through. If anything further happens, I'll be certain to update this thread, and if anyone has heard of similar cases, please let us know, thank you.

December 24th, 2008, 02:41 AM	#26
Vincent Cortez Tourist Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 3	Problem returns... Well... I received my HV20 back from Canon in time to work on a large project. Upon receiving the camera I tested it in the same fashion which I used to really determine the problem and it was gone. The invoice said they replaced the "ccd device"(even though it uses a CMOS). I shot for a little over two months. However I recently noticed that the camera appears to be acting up again. The hairline vertical line is starting to rear it's ugly thin head again. I will be conducting more low light tests to determine this but I am almost certain that the same problem is returning... Chris R. after having your camera "fixed" has the problem totally vanished? HAs anyone noticed this on their HV20/30?

March 1st, 2008, 01:04 AM	#16
Christopher Ruffell Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 202	Paul, Dave, Ian, thank you. I agree - it shouldn't take much on their behalf to fix this. I'm seeking fair treatment, and as you've all suggested, I've gone beyond what I should have to. I've called in the recent past, and talked with their customer service via phone and only keep getting referred or past along to the same-level of customer service rep. It goes in cycles, but I'll start persisting with the calls. In short, I require to talk to someone who can actually make a decision, but I haven't been referred to a supervisor, which I need. Thank you DVInfo members, for support, which I am very grateful for!

March 30th, 2008, 03:52 PM	#17
Christopher Ruffell Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 202	I have spoken more times with Canon again to no avail. With a mere two weeks left on the original warranty, I did as the customer support person on the phone suggested and sent the HV20 back along with a DVD containing video and still images and an HDV tape. Supportive comments on this thread are wonderful, but when I talk to Canon, I'm still one person doing it alone in the end. In reality, it doesn't seem like there was much more I could do than I've done thus far. My complaint wasn't taken anymore seriously than it was originally despite having more proof, a letter, a production that was jeopardized, stress, etc. No one offered to personally look into it; not at the store level, not Canon phone support, not the Canon tech's via e-mail. It’s all been ‘good luck with that’. I used the HV20 as I would use an XL-H1 – as a professional piece of equipment. Despite ‘being a professional’, my background didn't make any difference in how I was dealt with, so I assume the average Canon customer is dealt with in this fashion. Perhaps if it was an XL-H1 it would have been looked at differently, but despite the professional orientation of the project I used my Canon product on, there’s nothing to lead me to believe if I owned an XL-H1 I’d be any better off. Imagine two months without your most crucial tool… In the end, one could say Canon is a business doing business dealing with a customer’s malfunctioning product (a manufacturer’s defect I should add). Canon’s conduct isn’t meant to be personal so I shouldn’t take it personally; I would think it would be called professional conduct. Follow the book. However, I think there's a point where reason and fairness to come into play. In the very least, the first time it was sent back, I believe I should have been giving an extension on my warranty equal to the time that it took to (mis)repair my purchase. That is more than 100% fair, especially considering the time/money spent to deal with this situation to have the camera sent away, and the warranty time eaten up by the product not being in my hands to use for two months. Also consider it wasn’t fixed, and I’ve had to repeat this process, and now it’s off again.

March 31st, 2008, 12:18 PM	#23
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	I suspect Canada and US have "different" ideas of "customer service", and that may be the problem for the OP. Consumer protection laws also vary widely, and sadly it's not uncommon to provide the minimal level of "service" - what sets a company apart is whether they "go the extra" when it's needed. I agree it's a 1K consumer camera, but that's still a lot of doughnuts... and I don't see Canon arguing that they didn't intend people to buy the HV20 (or a couple of them) as a backup or second angle cam in a pro environment! I don't know if Canada has "lemon law", but this sure would qualify in the states. Typically the MFR has a reasonable amount of time or attempts to affect a repair, and if they can't, they MUST replace or refund. It's a pain to push the issue, but sometimes you have to, and I'd look up lemon law and warranty of merchantability (a manufacturer by selling a product effectively is required to warrant that it is suitable and will work as advertised and expected). This doesn't mean they have to guarantee a consumer product will survive in a "professional" environment per se, but it does mean if the camera wouldn't have worked (as in it's not malfunctioning because of abuse and would have malfunctioned in it's expected use) it should be covered. The principle is simple, you pay your money, you expect the thing to work, and if it doesn't, there are typically legal remedies to protect the consumer from being stuck. What is really a shame here is that "the customer comes first" hasn't applied - that will make me a loyal customer EVERY time, but burn me once, I'll tell everyone I know not to patronize or buy from you. I'd rather spend my money with companies and establishments that make things right than with ones who won't, and I do...