How do you see Canon's line up down the line?
 

Many of us have waited for it seems ages for Canon to restamp it's position in the DV turf. Now with the release and well received reviews including BBC indorsement, Canon must be firmly a hot topic with the XF 300 series. With high expectation of a XL ?? model similar to the XF series to eventually appear what do you think will survive?

The XL HD series will probably go fairly soon. Then what about the XH Series. Do you foresee these phased out leaving Canon tapeless and a range of cameras not SD/HD capable.

So that leaves the XL2, the sole remaining surviver of the mini dv revolution started by the XL1. I'm still somewhat surprised the xl2 has remained in production so long and still fetching a reasonable high price for a new unit belonging to a dying format.

(Please shift this if I've posted it in the wrong forum)

I think tape is still fairly popular - a lot of people don't want to deal with the media storage issues of tapeless capture yet. I don't think we'll see the XH & XL line drop anytime soon. After all, you can still buy a brand new GL2, and I would have thought that those would have been discontinued long ago. But Canon still sells them, so there must be some market for it, right?

I expect ALL camcorders to become tapeless within a few years, if it hasn't already happened. I think Canon's XF line showed you don't need a proprietary media storage card to be a success. You can record full broadcast-level video onto media cards you can get at Wal-Mart. As a 20+ year veteran of video production, I find this nothing short of amazing.

Honestly, I don't see why anyone would even buy tape camcorders anymore. Using Canon as an example, why buy the inferior XL/XH series when the XF line offers so much more, at around the same price? Some might say they prefer the archiving of videotapes. Well, just download your video from your CF cards onto a portable hard drive. That should keep for years, decades even. And although CF cards aren't as cheap as videotape, they're a heck of a lot cheaper than P2 or SxS cards. I could see giving my client the CF cards, something I absolutely won't do with my P2 cards. If they "forget" to return them, that's cool- - I'll just bill them for a replacement... which will be waiting for me at Best Buy. No special order necessary.

As far as I know, there are no tape-based professional cameras being developed, or even consumer models. There will be no new tape formats. Tape will still be in use for years to come, but I don't expect to ever see a new pro camera (besides upgrades to current models) designed to use videotape.
Solid state recording is the logical step for video acquisition.

Apparently, JVC has stopped producing DV tapes. It will take years, but that market will die, just like 8mm film did many years ago.

From what I'm understanding, the XL H1a & s will be done by the end of the year........and, I'm just guessing here, then something new will show up!

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

Not the sole remaining survivor... there's also the GL2.

And yet it is trumped by the GL2 in terms of longevity (perhaps even more surprising).

Since going tapeless in the audio world almost 20 years ago, my life has gotten a lot easier AND a lot harder. Constant fear of data loss and tons of hard drive space are the downsides, but the positives are just too numerous and the speed and capabilities still blow my mind.

After renting tape based pro cameras for years, I've had my share of issues with those too. When I decided to buy, I didn't look at any tape based cameras. I'm never going back!
1/3 realtime to get into my computer...200 min continuous recording, cheap media, no mechanical moving parts to go out of alignment...etc.
Glad to see tape is dying!
And the XF300 is in my sights for EOY!

A friend recently thanked me for talking him into going tapeless. He still got an amazing price for his FX1 which really baffled me. Another friend is very close to the same move and will dump his xh-a1 as he hates tape too.

Why I still need to use tapes.
 

When I video tape (with my A1)a three or four day rhythmic gymnastics competition I may use 20+ tapes and sometimes very little time for breaks. I acknowledge that my situation is not common, probably, but at this stage tapes look easier to handle than downloading CF cards.
By the way I also use Canon 1DMark4 for photographing competitions, and I tried using the video feature. Although the AI Servo tracking feature is excellent for focussing on moving objects with the still camera, Canon disabled it for the video--guess why--they do not want it to be a replacement for their video cameras. Keeping moving objects in focus is very challenging. As far as I am concerned, unless you need a very narrow focus plane, and the object is not moving, the video feature with the advantage of changing lenses, is very limited although the quality is superior with my L lenses.

why buy the inferior XL/XH series when the XF line offers so much more, at around the
 

Glen,

The XHA1 is half the price of the XF300 here in the UK, and is significantly smaller than the new camera, so i'm not sure this is a good comparison at present.

I saw the 2 cameras next door to each other yesterday, with the XF 300 priced at £6,800. That's more than the EX3. I've also seen it for just over 5000 on Ebay, so a major price drop should be imminent. Even so, the XHA1 is still an attractive package for those with 2 and a half grand to spend. I sold mine on Ebay for £1600 with batteries(that fit the XF - Doh!), polariser etc. Actually i'm already kicking myself.

The 300 is in another ballpark really. The first "affordable" camera to be given a green light from the BBC.

Dom,

Interesting on the pricing in the UK. Here in the US, the XF300 and the EX1R are close in price, as are the XF305 and EX3. True, the XHA1 is half the price of the XF300, but the XHG1 is only $1,000 cheaper. For that money, I'd definitely go for the XF.
I'd love for Canon to drop the prices on the XF line. I'm trying to rationalize the purchase of one. If I can make a good business case, I'll get one, or maybe an EX model. A price drop would surely help.

Does anyone know if this is a common business practice of Canon, to drop the prices on their cameras after a time?

IMHO:
Canon will do what it's spreadsheets predict will maximize it's profit in the various markets its MBAs identify as segments in which Canon products are sold. If you think about it and ignore products replaced by their "s" model upgrades, the only "professional" cameras Canon has actually withdrawn from the market (post DV revolution) is the GL1 and the XL1/XL1s. If you consider the GL-2 should have really been named the GL-1s, then the only camera withdrawn was the XL1s. It's just an observation.

I read somewhere (an analyst) that, in the context of the market at the time, the XL-H1 was targeted at station managers that were facing a forced march to HD and the semi shoulder mounted w/interchangeable lens XL was (from their perspective) a dirt cheap way to get there with the "right" (driven by station manager buying view) specs and features. That market segmentation would drive a lot of revenue to Canon and erode the competition that was in that market with full-sized $50K and up products. Canon has no product-line up there to erode. If that thinking caries forward, the fixed lens XF305 seems targeted at a broadcast market (witness the lighting approval by the BBC) defined by 50MB, 4:2:2, SDI and mobile so it led the product announcement line ahead of the changeable lens XL model in the new solid state line. The fact that it's served by 1/3" sensors is irrelevant as it isn't in the BBC spec. Think market size and projected revenue numbers in a spreadsheet.

If a solid state interchangeable lens XL model comes out in Sept as predicted, there remains a gap in the under $7k market. I think it's fair to say, given past behavior, Canon will keep the current line up until they have a replacement and the replacement will be based on Canon's assessment of the market AT THE TIME THE NEW CAMERA WILL ARRIVE, not the market at THIS TIME.

Consider:
1) Development resources are expensive and they are split between seemingly hot selling Canon HDSLR and seemingly mature Camcorder product lines
2) Canon waits to enter a market
3) The under $7K camcorder market is:
a) Crowded with competitors with both tape, solid state and hybrid tape-solidstate camcorders
b) Being infiltrated by Canon's and competitor HDSLR product
c) More price sensitive
d) Going through significant change in the low budget documentary sub-segment

So if past behavior continues, the churn in the under $7k space may point to a continued absence of a new product in that space. This is similar to the ongoing GL-2 and XL-2 plus existing HDV products being left to serve the market in long tail fashion UNTIL a new sub segment is identified by Canon with enough capability to result in a good number in the revenue column of the spreadsheet. Then, whatever existing product(s) collide the most (closest-match-price-point) with that space will likely go away like the XL1s was withdrawn to make room for the XL2 but the GL2 (as a DV camera) was not removed and left to do battle in that space.

My two cents but worth nothing.

I have been waiting and saving for two years for Canon to replace the A1 with a tapeless solution. I need that 20x lens, a 25 bit data rate or higher, and I want the Canon quality and warranty.

However, if Canon does not produce the camera in the $4,000 price range by Christmas, I will be forced to buy a Sony.

It makes no sense for me to spend $3,000 on old technology and replace my lost A1 with a new one. Buying a used one for $2,500 doesn't make sense either.

If a 15 year Canon customer like myself, is no longer part of "Canon's Marketing Strategy", then it's time for me to move on.

Interesting discussion. Last year at about this time, I was looking for one of two new cameras I was going to buy. One camera was going to be a 5D, but the other camera I wanted needed to be a video camera. I wanted one that recorded to tape, and one that had great quality glass and the professional audio features. I looked at all the brands then, and for several reasons, (a main reason being I wanted to stay with Canon cameras - a 5D and HF20 already purchased) I decided to get the XH-A1s.

Since that time I did get frustrated with having to digitize the tape while my other cam's data was transferred in 1/3 of the time. So, finally I bought a Sony MRC-1 CF card recorder that I now use with the A1. It has eliminated tape for me, pretty much, although I can still run tape when I want to. With a 32GB card I can record for a continuous 144 minutes, and still get the quality of the A1 camera. I do still get annoyed at the 1440x1080 anamorphic that I end up converting to full 1920x1080 on import, but it's still faster than converting from tape.

I feel like I've given the XH-A1s a brand new life. It's absolutely perfect for getting my master shot down the isle, or running continuously during a reception. I never have to worry about tape anymore, but yet I can still go to tape if I want a tape backup. I feel like I've got the best of both worlds, and still for less than the cost of the new Canons. I think overall that people have been too hasty when dumping their A1 cameras - they are still very good quality cameras that, for not too much more money can become tapeless. In their price range there is no camera with the internal professional level color controls and ability to save to presets the way the XH series does. Yes, the 1440x1080 HDV codec still sucks - but I can overlook that for another couple of years and still get a great deal of work out of the camera, and not have to shell out another $6000+ just yet. Hopefully by the time I'm ready to buy another video camera, Canon will have come out with an interchangeable lens video camera. :)

Canon A1s $3,700
Sony Card Reader $800

It is a interesting option.

How are you mounting the Sony MRC-1 CF?

It shouldn't be that difficult for Canon to re-engineer the basic A1s and include a built in card option. Sony did it with their NX5U, which I have been looking real close at.

Dave
Still hoping for a miracle coming from Canon this fall.

Yes, good thread..........my thoughts:

1) still love the A1s......best camera for the money out there (Transporter II !)....still

2) as many people who would want a solid state version of the A1, there is as many or more who want a video version of the 5D/7D on the new codec....and that second group have made loud and clear to Canon on their desires....in this forum and many others. Remember, as I posted before, the Canon video design team does read this and other forums......and most of the key DPs here in Hollywood have also let Canon know about their need for a "friendlier" version of the 5D/7D.

3) that being said, I believe that both cameras will eventually show up.....the question is which one will be first and when.

If I was a betting man, I would say..............

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

Sounds like Canon can't keep up which probably means a long life for the A1.

I've seen this movie before. Good for A1 owners ... market share loss for Canon offset by their HDSLR market share "eating their own children" ... all the while waiting for the next generation of the segment. Frankly, I think I'd rather the product managers read this forum. :-)

The project manager gets reports from the team........

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

great...filtered opinions...

100% correct according to my sources. No more tape.....

The manager doesn't speak or read english.........

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

I can assure you in no uncertain terms that they do, with punctual regularity.

Decision makers at Canon USA as well as Canon Inc. in Japan follow not just this forum but all of DV Info Net quite closely. How do I know? Because I attend the same trade shows and industry events as they do, where I see them often, and they tell me so all the time. Rest assured that they are monitoring your feedback here on a continuous basis.

Hope this helps,

In that case...

Canon, if you need someone to demo one of your XF305s, or whatever else you have coming down the pipeline, I'm available!

Canon listen up. I want a camcorder similar to the A1s with 4:2:2: color, a 35 mbps data rate, and for less than $4,500 by Christmass,

Dave

Dave-

Why would you want 35mb when you can have 50mb........aim higher!

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

I can't afford a $7,000 camcorder.

Sad but true..I use Canon DSLRS(5dmkii and 1Dmkiii) Still have my Gl1,GL2 and 2 XHA1 cams..no way i I can do 2 XF cams...and I would need at least two for the type of events I do....The XHs will have to do until something else comes along...be it Canon or otherwise..

It does seem Canon is marketing this camera toward the broadcast segment. This camera is broadcast-capable right out of the box - just ask the BBC. I'll admit, that's one of its biggest appeals to me. Does the event videography market really need a $7-8,000, 50mbps codec, 4:2:2 color camera with HD/SDI and gen lock ports?

I believe Les said it best: Canon is aiming toward the tv news stations with an affordable (for them) camcorder. Taking on Panasonic's HPX370s, 1/3" CMOS against 1/3" CMOS. Canon does have the edge on affordable, non-proprietary media storage, though.

Does that mean Canon is giving up on the mid range $2,500-$5,000 Camcorder market?

If so, I wish they would make that public soon, so I can move on.....

David......

If you look at the history at Canon....The A1/G1 came out 1 to 1 1/2 years later if I remember, so they are not going to put out a lesser expensive model right after they put out the 300/305. So, unless your current cameras are going kaput then I'd wait for what you want and can afford. Canon did say when they announced this new codec back in January, that it "would be the codec on all future professional cameras". So I'm guessing that we will see a camera at the price point you want......just not now or in the near future.

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

Seems to me that Canon is in a tough competitive situation with the DSLR market possibly collapsing and being almost 2 years behind on their camcorder line. I doubt you would see any public statement that would turn over a segment to it's competition. THe $2500-$5000 is where the problem is.

If you are like me, you have outgrown your A1, you want to go to solid state, waited patiently and there still isn't a model from Canon with modern features like last year's Sony's have and there's nothing in sight. All you can do is Frankenstein your kit with firewire add-ons like the $1200 Focus Enhancement or Sony MRC1 device. If you want improved low-light, hires screen and other modern features, Sony's 2009 Z5 allows the MRC1 add-on and gives you the 20x lens you are used to. The 2009 Sony Z7 has the MRC1 included, drops to a 14x lens but gives you interchangeable lenses. Sony's new NX5 may be attractive with modern features, AVC CODEC and fully solid state. I think JVC may have an SS dog in the fight but I haven't researched them. The Sony EX1R is a step up feature and price wise to a more professional camera and gives you the benefits of 1/2" sensors at only 35MB. If you want the DOF of HDSLRs, Panny and Sony both are shipping one this fall.

I currently have no camera. I live on a small pension, and I have a debilitating neurological disease. In October I'll have close to $5,000 to spend. Due to my circumstances, my next camera will no doubt be my last. So I need to do it right.

I can't see replacing the old A1 with a new A1s for $3,600. The xf300 is out of the question. So is the Sony Ex1R. I could try to buy a used A1s for around $2,800, but I live on a isolated Island in Alaska, and I would have to buy it site unseen from a unknown seller. Too many bad past experiences to do that again. People, Corporations, and Businesses enjoy sending their "seconds" to Alaska. They know we can't afford to send them back.

Even if I did buy a A1s, it would be very expensive to upgrade it.

I would like to buy something by Christmas in order to begin filming again in early spring.

David-

What are you planning on shooting and what do you plan on doing with the finished product? Theatrical release? DVD? etc......these factors might help steer you to a certain camera...

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

I'm not in business. I having been shooting HD video around my home in Sitka Alaska for over three years. Until my camera died. I have been putting my video on the web at: Old Duffer's Natural World on Vimeo and sitkaalaskavideo.blogspot.com. I have also given footage to some Alaska TV Stations. Made and gave away some DVD's over the years. Having a video camera was a great way for me to get outside more. I have a chronic neurological disorder which limits some of my life activities. I guess you can say I find videography therapeutic. Since the 1960's it was my life dream to be a wildlife photographer/ videographer. But life happened.

Hi David,

I think you've got some real nice video on your Vimeo site.
If I was in your shoes, and was shooting those kind of subjects (no interviews, no run & gun, no important audio) I'd forget about camcorders and get a Canon T2i or a Nikon D3100 and a couple of nice lenses. If you've got some lenses for one of those brands already, then that makes the decision of which model to get even easier.

Advantages:
Very nice images with shalow DoF.
Less expensive. About $700 with the cheap kit lens.
Video and stills with one body.
Smaller, lighter and easier to carry around.

I haven't seen the D3100 yet, but I expect it to be a nice camera. The T2i is basically a 7D in a cheaper body. Either way you can't go wrong for the kind of work you're doing.

That's just my two cents. I think you'd enjoy one of those DSLR cameras.

I have thought about a DSLR. But I want to expand my filming to include Alaska Native Cultural activities, subsistence and art activities. I also have a lot of Russian and Early American historical activities to film in my community. There are just so many opportunities for filming here. Drive me nuts thinking about it.

So I will need pretty good sound.

I do most of my wildlife/nature and commercial fishing filming using a tripod from the road system, or from short walks from the road system, that's why I need the 20x lens.

My illness is beginning to effect my vision. So focusing will become more and more of a issue in the future.

That being the case, a more modern camera with the Peaking features may help. The ones that let you set the peaking color are great for helping with focus. The $3999 NX5U may have the colored peaking. Not sure about the HDV cameras.

Too bad the XF300/305 is out of your price range because it has the best auto-focus system I've ever encountered on a camcorder.

David Rice

Hey David, great Vimeo page. I'd love to go to Alaska someday.

I spent 4 years in Anchorage in the mid 80's..and I loved it. Wish i would've had the gear I have now.. back then all I had was a Canon AE-1 and no video cam..lol I've been to Sitka a couple of times fishing. Will have to check out your site for sure...

David-

As the others have pointed out, there are other options out there from Sony, Panasonic, and JVC. I understand you want a Canon but I don't think we will know what is coming next until the end of the year at best. According to your schedule, it looks like you can make it until then.

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com

Well.....The baby brothers have shown themselves ...XF100 & XF105. So lets keep speculatin'......is it me or does there seem to be a numbers gap between these guys and the XF 300 & XF 305???? Maybe eh....200 & 205??? So here is my revised thought:
Canon is going to have a line of 3 or 4 cameras using the 50mb codec. I think the 100/105s, like a juiced up GL2, will be for the lower price point and a good "C" camera for the 300/305. Down the road a bit, we'll see a 200/205...being the direct A1/G1 replacement ( not too soon as to cut into 300/305 sales). A 4th camera would be the one many are hopeful for....a 5D/7D in a video configuration.....and we call it the ???400...or 500????

This all came to me in the middle of last night........like vision.....

Anyway, this thread is for speculatin'

Jim Martin
FilmTools.com