XF300 vs. 7d
 

I am currently using an XHA1s and am looking to take the next step up. How does the image quality of the XF300 compare to the 7d? I know the DOF isn't there with the XF but I am more concerned with getting that great "film" look that people are getting with the 7d. Yes, I know there is a huge price difference, I just want to know about image quality.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

I have the XF305 and also used the 7D on my last DVD production "a guide to DSLR photography"

The 7D will produce excellent movies. However, there are many shortcomings with shooting on a HDSLR compared to a dedicated camcorder. The best option is to use both, especially if you you want to do wide angle work.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Whats the recording time like on the XF? I heard with the 7d you can only get about 8 minutes per card.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Recording times vary with the memory card size. With a 16gb card on the XF using 1920 x 1080 or 1280x720 I get 40 minutes.@ 50mbs, using 35mbs I get 57 minutes. The 7D has a shorter maximum recording time for any take, but you can start a new recording(s) to fill the card. The limitation of a short recording time is no big deal unless you want to record an entire wedding or other long production.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Also look at the XF100 (we have both and also 7D + 5D2 etc).

The XF cameras mix very well with the DSLR footage, but as you know you can't get the shallow DOF (which is often more hassle than it's worth).

DSLR recording times are approx 12 mins for every 4GB of card space, so a 32GB card gets you 8x4GB = 8x12 mins = 96 mins (approx). The same card in the XF gives us 82mins (50mbs 4:2:2).

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Best solution is to have both! ;)

They do blend nicely BUT you have to tweak the in camera setting to get that to happen unless you like a lot of work in post.
Ive shot both of my cameras for a nationally airing TV show and also a local PBS show that airs in HD.
Depending on the subject, I've used them both for a-cam/b-cam rolls and they work great in either roll.
If you can't swing the 300 and 7D, substitute a T2i which has the same video quality (just not as controllable settings-wise) as the 7D for half the price. Get a 50mm f1.4 and you're all set for the best of both worlds.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

The big problem with the shallow DOF is that if you don't get your focus spot on then the result will look dreadful on a 40 or 50" screen. Achieving accurate focus on a HDSLR is not that easy, unless you invest in a decent finder.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

LOL! It's not that easy even with a decent viewfinder! As with anything regarding camerawork, it takes practice...lots of practice to become really proficient.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Thanks for the input. Eventually I would like to be dual wielding the 7d and 300, but budget wise I might pick up the 7d first unless I can sell my XHA1s for a decent price.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

What it is about the 7D that you consider it "a step up". When I was ready for a step up from the A1, it was because of limitations of the A1. In many ways, you'll be giving up things in a move to the 7D. Also, overcoming the limitations of shooting with DSLRs entails additional equipment costs so look at the total cost. Are you limited by only spending what you sell your used A1s for? The type of shooting you do is also a factor.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

To chirp in a little late, I have multiple A1's and 7D's. The 7D's are great for shallow DOF, but focus can be a real PIA especially if you are shooting lower than F4. The resolution isn't there on the 7D's and to be perfectly honest the XF300 would be a million times more useful if I had to pick. Also I suppose it depends on what work you do, for general corporate / event / low end broadcast I would go straight to the XF300. If you want to do multi camera shoots and use a 7D for a few money shots great. But for the entire event it is a big risk. Other option could be a 2nd hand Ex1 and a capture device and a 2nd hand 7D??? Remember the cost of lenses with the 7D, you will need a few.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

I sold my A1 for a Canon 60D. I went with the 60D over the 7d because of the articulated LCD monitor. Which is a BIG improvement over the 7d. I shoot only from a tripod, and only at pretty stationary targets. I don't move around much.

The 60D does have a better overall picture quality. However, you can't believe all of the important shots I have missed since buying it.

When a object, bird, or person is moving toward you, or away from you, forget. You can't keep it focused.

Filming a Bald Eagle flying past you? forget it. Following any kind of fast moving object, forget it. Following a person in a crowd of people, I hear it's possible with hours of practice. But, I still can't do it.

Looking back, I should have kept the A1, it's a incredible camera, and adapts well to any situation. I should have waited out Canon for it's replacement. Which I know is frustrating. I should have kept the A1. I suggest you do the same.

No, I won't trade. But I will sell when Canon releases a camcorder to replace the A1 and that wonderful 20x lens.

Dave

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

It will look even worse on a deep dof camera such as the XF-series. I've seen a lot of poorly shot documentary footage where the focus is on the backwall instead of the speaker. Never seen anything like that even with poorly shot DSLR footage. It's just way more difficult to spot where the focus actually is when everything is in focus. And when looking at a very sharp HD footage from the xf300, the focus is very apparent compared to the lcd. Not so with DSLR's as they are not that sharp to begin with. And they also lack autofocus which is great, people will actually have to focus.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Yes, these 1/3 inch cameras are great for event work. But where the DSLR's shine is narrative work. You do double audio anyway and everything is controlled. The positives outweight the negatives.

The xf300, great as it is for event work, is just not cutting it for narrative as none of the small sensor cameras do. Pick the camera depending on what you do. And on how rich you are ;)

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Filming a Bald Eagle and filming a wedding is a slightly different thing, and being event videographer myself I would recommend at least to try DSLR as video tool to anyone who likes to film, i love Canon DSLRs and probably will use them as long as they will support (and improve) video capability;
Mark, I would check 60D as a possible alternative to 7D, it has flip LCD, longer battery life and never overheats, 7D does;
and speaking about Bald Eagle, with the practice you can follow focus fast moving object,
do you think that cameras used for the sport events have autofocus?
Tom Guilmette - Sony HDC-910 HD 1080i camera & Canon 75x lens (9.3-700mm zoom) - Twitvid

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

In terms of depth of field, the XF300 will look just like your old XHA1. But the color and dynamic range will be a zillion times better.

The 'film look' you're after needs good lenses on the 7D, so there's very little price difference once you've added all the lenses and accessories you'll need - with the XF300 probably coming out cheaper.

They're apples and oranges - completelly different tools for different jobs.

Get a T3i and a 50mm lens to play with shallow depth of field AND an XF100 to film events and you won't break the bank (or your budget) and will have your cake and eat it too.

The XF300 gets 41 minutes from a 16gb card at the best quality setting.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

I've got an A1, XF300 and a 7d.

I got the 7d for the DoF and film look. On a few occasions, I tried to use the camera as a replacement for the XF but gave up. It's just not the same as a Camcorder. Plus you end up spending more $$$ to turn it into a camcorder equivelant.

I use the 7d for artistic shots only and it's great with the Philip Bloom slider.

Personally, I wouldn't change the A1 for a 7d. I'd get a 7d and use it with the A1.

Ideally, I'd rather have an XF and an AF101.

All depends on what you are going to use it for.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Totally agree regarding the 60D compared to 7D, overheating is a real problem and a pain. Flip LCD is great. The only plus of the 7D is build quality, I shoot sometimes with another guy and he has a 60D and the rubber is coming off the body and it looks pretty tired. 7D is better if it is lightly raining too. If you are gentle with it then the 60D wins by far.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Simple answer, don't rely on the autofocus.

Maybe I haven't seen the backwall footage you describe, but I have seen plenty of poor video shot with a DSLR, come to that I have also seen plenty of excellent footage shot with the same. Cameras, HDSLR or camcorders are a means to an end, in experienced hands they will deliver stunning footage, in other hands they may be better left in the box.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Well said.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Syeed,

Image wise, how do you compare the XF and the A1? I've heard that the XF is heads and shoulders above and I've also heard it's not all that much better. Since you actually own both cameras, I'd love to hear your take on how the two compare image wise.

Thanks much!

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

The Ai is a HDTV (1440 x 1080) and SD whereas the the XF 300/305 offers full HD 1920x1080, 1280 x 720 and 1440 x 1080. Image quality the XF is head and shoulders better than the Ai, and it uses memory cards not that black stuff - forget the name as I haven't used it for a few years.

The 7D is a great camera but I personally wouldn't use it as my number 1 camera, you need too many bits to bring it up to spec and then you defeat the whole object of using a light portable HDSLR camera, and with all the extra bits added you look like a walking hardware store.

Just my view

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Hi Peter,

Straight from the camera and without any tweaking in post I prefer the footage from the A1. Where the A1 footage looks rich and warm, I find the XF a little cold and clinical.

(I'm alternating between the Vortex and BBC settings for the XF and one of the custom pre-sets from this forum for the A1.)

The XF is a nice camera and apart from the zoom selector option a great camera to use. I'm not disappointed that I purchased it and also I wouldn't have been disappointed if it gave the same footage as the A1.

I also prefer the look of the 7d over the XF and the A1.

When I first got the 7d I used it as a second camera just to test it out. After seeing the footage, I forgot about the XF footage and used the 7d footage for the interview parts. It just looks so much nicer. See: Concours D'Elegance 2011 preview - YouTube

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Wow, a lot of feedback in the last couple of days. Its good to see and I am picking up a lot of useful info on the 2 cameras. I really like that piece you posted Syeed. I love the look of it. I have gotten into shooting automotive videos as well but it is not what I do exclusively. Was that all on a 7d?

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

That surprises me, the XF must be so much nicer to colour grade though? Did you mainly use your A1 in 50i or 25p

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Interesting Syeed, just shows how personal/subjective our preferences are :-)

I've owned a couple of XH-A1s, the 7D, and currently have a 5DII and XF300. For me the XF is quite a step up from the A1 in colour/detail, and the lens is far superior (no noticeable CA for example). In terms of usability - with the scopes, larger VF, CF media etc - there's no contest. And then, when it comes to post, the codec makes a massive difference with grading/keying.

When comparing the 5DII/7D to the XF, the differences are even more stark. I've been shooting almost exclusively with the XF this year (occasionally I use the DSLR for a cutaway) and when I mix and match shots for reel purposes etc, there's just a massive difference in IQ when playing at 720p and up. The XF footage is so much more detailed, the gradients far superior, and it's not messed up but wacky moire/aftifacting.

The XF takes more work in post to achieve great results - I do CC a lot, but for me the IQ is very pleasing vis-a-vis the DSLRs. I won't even touch on the usability issues!

But yes, it's very much a matter of personal preference: I'm planning to embark on a feature in the coming months and I'll be using the XF, the 5DII will be restricted to stills.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Just to add another dimension to this thread. I am currently working on a HDSLR DVD using the Nikon D7000. At times I felt I was fighting a losing battle, but then I used some of my old series Nikkor lenses which give full aperture control etc. and the results are outstanding. I will syill use the XF305 and Sony EX3 as my main video cameras but will supplement the video with clips shot on the D7000. Last year I used the Canon 7D for my "a guide to DSLR photography" DVD. I wasn't too impressed with the video material I shot with this camera, but then I didn't have full manual control on the lenses I was given.

Interesting times :-)

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

I really like the look of the videos these guys make: wagenwerks's videos on Vimeo
Ultimately, that is what I would like my stuff to look like.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Mark, you don't need $7K camera for that look , any DSLR with decent lens will do the job, i'm pretty sure majority, if not all, of the stuff was shot with DSLRs, when we're talking about look, it is mostly about lighting, shot composition and post work,
I said it many times, i'll say it again, some people shoot better with HV20 than some with Epic :)

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Ahhh, if only I had the money for an Epic. Hell, I would take a RED One if I could afford it.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

I think there may be a couple of shots that were from the XF in that video. Can't remember.

This video, was also done with a 7d and the XF. The first and last scene are XF, all the sliding shots and some of the stationary shots are with the 7d. Engine shot and the panning through window are from the XF. I used the Kessler pocket dolly for the sliding shots.

Mussolinin's 1939 Alfa Romeo 6C 2500 S Berlinetta - YouTube



50i on the A1. Now I shoot predominately 50p or 25p.

I think the issue I have with the A1 and XF may be unique to me. On the A1, footage comes out very similar to what I see on the cameras LCD. The majority of footage I do end up uploading to youtube, I don't do any post correction.

With the XF however, I can never get it right. On the LCD the picture looks great, but when viewed later, it comes out slightly over exposed. Which means I always need to do post correction. Tried the wave form monitor and also calibrated the LCD screen, but the problem still exists. Not as bad as when I first got it though.



To be honest, I'm far from being an expert.

How did he do those moving shots!!!

Slightly Overexposed XF300 footage?
 

Ok, I thought it was just me - but I'm finding things slightly overexposed as well. It looks just great on the screen, but in Premiere Pro 5.5, It looks QUITE a bit washed out. I shoot way too much on full auto, so I thought that was some of the problem (I'm sure it is), but I've seen this as well.

Anyone else? What are you doing to compensate? I'm giving up shooting on Auto unless I have no choice, but what else? I wonder if I have something set wrong somewhere... I'm using either mojo settings from the Vimeo board, or the outdoor settings from the Vortex Media video.

Larry

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

I have mine on full manual and PP5.5 and I still get the washed out look.

Re: Slightly Overexposed XF300 footage?
 

Hi Larry,

I love the XF but I also grade practically everything I shoot. I must admit, if I'm not grading footage at all, then I do prefer the look of the DSLRs. I just shot some interviews with the 5DII yesterday and they look good straight out of the camera. With the XF, I almost always do a round of Magic Bullet Colorista II using scopes to get the highs/lows where I want them.

It's critical not to overexpose with the XF. If you are using auto, you can set the exposure compensation to a negative value, erring on the side of caution.

When shooting people, set the zebras to around 65% with the +/- 5% threshold. Then expose so the zebras appear only on the highlights of the face (nose, cheekbone facing the principal light source). You can't go wrong if you do this, perfect skin exposure every time.

When shooting objects, use the built-in scopes (making sure your whites just touch 100 and your black just touch 0), or set your second set of zebras at 95% so only the pure whites zebra.

In other words, rely on your scopes/zebras for exposure and you'll do very well. The screen is next to useless.

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Profiling your monitor will help to display accurate colours

Monitor profiling and Colorista II
 

Hi Vincent,

Sorry for the delayed response - busy weekend... My monitor is profiled - I've been shooting DSLR photography for a while now, and was profiling my monitor before anyone else I knew. I do my own photo printing and learned over a decade ago that if the monitor is out of whack, nothing will look right.

I use a Colormunki, but sometimes I use a real monkey... whichever gives the best results... hahahaha ha. So sorry...

What do you use to profile your monitor?

Josh - I've been thinking about Colorista II. I have their free QuickLooks Limited that came as a registration bonus with the latest Adobe upgrade - and that's actually pretty cool. Colorista II looks pretty sweet.

I have to admit that I just did another shoot last week while I was running sound and setup for a group at church, and I didn't have time to run the XF300 on manual - there was a LOT happening with changing lighting and locations in the church. Auto seemed the smart thing to do, anyway. But it came out better than the last time I did it - all settings the same (for auto). Confusing, but I'll keep shooting and get it down.

Larry

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

The Color Munki should produce good results, no problem there (I use the Spyder and a iOne amongst others). I also use a JVC CRT studio monitor for colour correction work, this is not profiled with a spyder but I use the SMPTE colour bars to set up the display. You can add the bars to a timeline and set up your LCD screen prior to working on a project. Premiere will generate them for you or use the ones generated by the XF camera. Spend some time setting up your video colours using the bars and you should see a difference.

I also have the Canon XF305 and it does produce a brighter image than my Sony EX3

Re: Slightly Overexposed XF300 footage?
 

Really? You're saying that 65% is going to give you perfect exposure on an albino, a black person, a latino, and everyone in between? That is impossible. I would never use zebras to judge exposure on skin tone because I cannot know the reflectance value of the person's skin. 65% might be perfect on a white guy, but totally wrong on an Asian. If you use zebras on skin tone, you're just guessing. Well, I can guess too, without even using zebras! Only bright white and a calibrated 18% gray card are reliable indicators of exposure when using zebras -- because you already know what the reflectance value is of those targets. Using zebras in any other way is really just taking an educated guess. I believe that anyone who says they use "_____% zebras" for skin tones is really just fooling themselves into thinking they are using zebras. What they are actually doing is guessing, based on how the picture looks, and zebras aren't really telling them anything important.

If you want to get perfectly exposed images every time, and never have to grade in post, you can't use histograms, you can't use the built-in waveform monitor, you just need to learn to use zebras properly. The camera has excellent, and very accurate zebras, so there's no exuse for getting washed out or over exposed images. And the great thing about zebras is that they are universal. Once you know how to use them proplerly on one camera, you can apply that skill to every professional camera you encounter.

http://www.vortexmedia.com/DVD_XF305.html

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

XF300 is a $7K camcorder, Red Scarlet fixed lens kit priced to be around $6K, it is not an Epic, and it is not a Red1, but in my opinion 2/3" RAW 120fps @3k + HDR - totally worth the money;
when it's out :)

Re: XF300 vs. 7d
 

Doug, can you give us a quick rundown on how you use Zebras? I am probably doing it wrong too.