Grainy Video from Canon XH A1
 

I just bought the Canon XH A1 and I really am impressed with the construction, build, functions and features!!

However, I am not impressed wit the video being grainy..
Why is the video results from the XH A1 so grainy????

I did change all the auto settings, it is not on AGC , I dont use gain boost
as I use alot of light and do not need the gain boost.

Why does the XH A1 produce grainy video even in 1440x1080i ????

I just bought an A1 as well. One thing I can say is it is definitely not grainy. Have you studied up on the presets yet? This website has some great information and an online downloadable catalogue of presets others have tried and developed successfully.
What are your presets set at when you get "grainy" video?

The only time I get grain video is in low-light. Make sure the gain is set to 0.

I agree. You must be shooting at a high gain. Set it manually to zero or -3. Be sure the auto gain is off.

Are you certain that you are not using Auto Gain?

If so, what gain setting are you using?

Hi Eddie...........
 

May I ask what you're watching the video on and how it's getting there?


CS

Gain = Grain

Sorry to add one more to the gain theory, but do have a look at what menu settings you have for the gain. Check that you have the AGC switched off and the actual gain switch to L (for low)

If it's not that maybe provide us with either a still or video sample and also let us know what settings you have the camera on.

Good point. Also, a person could go into the menu and set the "low" switch position to a high gain. I don't know how you'd do this by accident, but it could be done. Normally, I keep my low position to -3, medium is zero and high is +3...but they could be set at anything.

The suspense is killing us Eddie....what are your settings....

trish

I go to +6 the max and the Grain are very minimal at that, when I shoot weddings. The couple and normal people can't really tell the differences. By the way , you can use the shutter speed, iris to control the the image to make it brighter then to use the gain switch...

Full resolution screen grabs please?

The gain can be set as high as 18 not 6
 

David-
I see you wrote the gains setting at high is 6. It can be set anywhere from -3 to 18.
if you want some grain do an 18 gain, works every time.

Grain
 

I am sorry folks for not responding sooner...

I have the AGC set to OFF

Preset is low -3

I do not use high gain or any gain boost due the fact I shoot in lots of light so a boost is NOT
Needed.

E

Do you have a factory preset turned on
 

If your gain is 0 or -3 then that not the issue.
next just set the camera to auto......the end on the dial and shot. not check and see if you have any grainy look.
Not that you will shot that way but that will verify that it is a setting that needs to be adjusted.
Also is the grain showing up after you inport it into your editing system?
what is your platform?

I think you misread my answer...

I meant to say that the grain is very minimal at +6 that i can still use it for weddings. And Eddie is complaining that it is graining even at -3. yes it can go up to +18, but it sure is not usable in my option

I think it is the compression of the NLE.

Have you tried hooking it up directly in to a HDTV straight out from the camera?

Ahem.................
 

Would someone, anyone, like to answer the question I asked back in #6, whilst you lot were off "wild goose chasing" all over the planet?

Eddies statement right at the beginning was enough to ring alarm bells here.

I know the A1 ain't grainy, you know the A1 ain't grainy, so if anyone says it's grainy, there's gotta be sommat weird going on.

Chanting mantra's doesn't help much in these situations.

So, what's Eddie watching this on, and how is the video getting there?

Eddie?


CS

So?
 

What happened?

You guys find God, the Holy Grail, a free ticket on the Metro for a year, did whathisname get glasses, find the focus ring, or what?


CS

Chances are you're missing something that will seem obvious once you familiarize yourself with the camera - apart from when you accidentally knock the lock switch. No matter how many times I do that, I always seem to spend at least 15 minutes in a panic thinking my camera's broken.

I dont own an XH-A1, but when I used it on previous shoots, I too did notice the really grainy image even at AGC off and 0 gain.

I dont know if its just me or a fact that just hasnt been discussed, but I noticed that when you turn on peaking, that increases the grain. I know that you get stuff on screen to tell you about focus, but it seems those things are recorded onto tape.

Can somebody do comparisons for this? I only used the camera on 3 or 4 shoots, but that was something I noticed.

Thought I was the only one...

Ryan,
it does not record peaking unless you are going out of the camera to a recording device or whatever. Peaking is not recorded to tape.
Bill

You know the other thing I've noticed is that people's perception of the truth varies. Grainy to Eddie might be perfectly clean to me. He won't be able to understand why I can't see the grain, and I won't understand what he's complaining about. I think the scale goes from 0-100 with perception of technical issues with brides coming in at about 12-15, most of us coming in around 50-75 and maybe Eddie's one of those unfortunate guys that is sitting around 90 or so. I love the thought of being around the 35 mark. Blisfully unaware is a great place to me. I have truned in so many videos where I've said Ok my career is over because this video is just so technically bad. Brides just can't tell. I think Eddie just might be on the other end of the spectrum...
bill

The first footage I shot out of the box was unbelievably grainy. It was because the Auto Gain Control was set to on (as others have already hinted at.)

Since remedying that minor issue, I don't see any grain until I go to +12db gain. And even then, if the lighting is otherwise contrasty -- albeit dim -- the grain is actually kind of attractive in a certain sense. Here's a link to some footage I shot at 60i, 1/30 shutter, f2.0, +12db gain: http://vimeo.com/1202294

I use a custom preset with the sharpening set to -7, and then I will just slightly sharpen (.100) in Vegas if I think it needs a little.

To me, this is about the limit on the amount of graininess I can tolerate. That said, I think it is tolerable -- especially if your choices are shoot in low light or don't shoot at all.

In well-lighted circumstances, I shoot with the gain at -3db. At -3, 0, and +3, I can perceive no "grain" issue in my footage, whether at 60i or 24f. If someone's getting grainy footage and the AGC is not the issue, then I would suggest the possibility of a defective sensor. One thing you could try is to shoot separate red, green, and blue cards and see if the graininess is isolated to one of the sensors.

I'm not certain of all the electronics-related principles involved, but the other possibility could be something wrong with the ND filters. I like to play around with the settings to see the results, and I've noticed that a small aperture, high ND filtering, and slow shutter speed in combination could be producing something you perceive as grainy.

A screen shot would probably go far to helping us diagnose the problem. If you do one, make sure it's a full-size HD shot.

Will,

I agree that strait out of the box comes alot of grain with the factory preset
however soon and still to find out is the mode and preset settings thanks to this
site. Your vimeo links looks really good (to my vision) I am sure had to subject
been moving even shooting at 30i would have put focus on the low light conditions
at + 12db. Just my 2 cents.

Curious to know what preset you used on Steve Swift Live at?

Henrik

It's my own custom preset. I named it RICHSOFT. (Actually, if I had it to do over again, I'd probably use something different for such a low light situation. I just simply forgot about it when I shot the footage in question.)

Anyway, here's the RICHSOFT preset as currently configured:

RICHSOFT XH-A1 Preset

Color Gain 10
Red Gain 10
Green Gain 7
Blue Gain 15
RG-Matrix 5
RB-Matrix 5
GR-Matrix 5
GB-Matrix 5
BR-Matrix 5
BG-Matrix 5
Gamma Cine 2
Color Matrix Cine 2
HDF Mid
Black Mid
Knee Low
NR1 Off
NR2 Off
Color Phase 0
H/V 0
Sharpness -7
Master Pedestal -7
Setup Level -6
Coring 6

The noise is absolutely present, and is normal. Believe it or not, this camera actually produces less noise than most of the others in its class, but it still produces noise.

You can adjust settings to greatly reduce grain at the expense of sensitivity, perceived sharpness, and latitude. For example, drop the master pedestal to -7 or less, sharpness to minimum, lower the knee, turn up coring, etc etc. After a little bit of experimentation and tuning, you will be thoroughly impressed by the cleanliness of the image at the price point.

Also keep in mind that the LCD is much less accurate for shadows than highlights.

Good point Bill. We have a much different perception of what is acceptable than the brides (or other non-technical users) do. I have been shooting receptions lately at 6db (using the Trucolor and Panalook2 presets). Yes, there is a bit of grain, but would the bride notice? I doubt it, even in HD.

The same goes for other technical flaws. A couple of weeks ago I posted a trailer on another forum. While it was generally well received, there were the usual comments on shaky camera work in places, saturation levels, and other issues. It was also posted on my blog for the bride and groom. They thought it was perfect.

Every year our local videographers association has a film festival for members to show their stuff. And every year I sweat over fixing technical glitches in video that I have already sent to the client. I know the client won't notice, but that other videographers will.

One thing about grain is that most people expect a bit of it as grain is present in film. Why do you think that "film look" filters have a feature to add it? The nice thing about the grain in the XH-A1 is that most of it is luma noise and can actually add to the film look that we are trying to archive.

I have been shooting a docu on the local volunteer fire company and go out on calls with the firefighters, sometimes at night, sometimes in dark buildings.When in the dark I use +12 or +6 depending on the situation.

I have noticed that when there is only dim ambient light there is there is more noise than in situations where there almost any light source, however dim, in the frame. If, for example, there is a flashlight source anywhere in the shot, the whole shot, the dark portions looks, to my eye, less noisy than a similar shot in which there is not such a source.

I have an idea that small point sources (which aren't providing much if anything in the way of over-all ambient lighting) illuminating even a small portion of a subject has some kind of effect on how the A1 processes a low-light signal overall.

It's hard to explain, and I might be nuts, but I think it's a real effect.

Will, thank you very much for sharing and commenting.

I would use Steve Dempseys VIVID RGB preset. Its awesome in low light and is very clean. You can get it on the presets page. I use it for all my weddings.

It's a good idea to try out this preset first. It's quite "extreme", so make sure it's the effect you want. I did some test shots in my garden in bright evening sunlight recently, and it was too vivid for my tastes.

Gain -3
 

Hello,
During my last holiday at Nkorho bush Lodge (Sabi Sands - South Africa) tested my Canon XH A1 with Gain setting - 3 during night filming under difficult light conditions. Standard Canon preset used.

http://www.vimeo.com/1378508

Comments for better settings or ideas are welcome.

Thanks,
Wil

Well I definitely had a good laugh at that one. Hah

I agree, I used to use VividRGB, but after shooting some flowers (orange and red) the colors were way too blown out for my liking. VividRGB is appealing I think to many because it gives that CSI/color corrected look straight out of the camera. Unfortunately, as with most things in life, the shortcut has many shortcomings.

I like panalook 2, but I crank the softness even further. The colors don't pop off the monitor straight out of the camera, but I find it much more neutral to CC with.

Just my 2 cents

I had problems with grainy footage when I first got my camera, but had neglected to turn off the AGC (auto gain control) - silly me. It was fine after that with gain set to off.

took me a while
 

It took me a while to get the look i was after with the a1. Straight out of the box the a1 was very grainy. Had to play around with it alot.

A little off topic, im trying to catch up my emails so anyone here that ive talked to about collaborting with ill catch up on everything. Went through a bad car wreck recently with some neck pain. Doing better now so cant wait to get back to playing with the a1 and learning more everyday. Im now trying to learn about 35mm adapt.

grain...
 

When I first was playing around with the a1, I too noticed what I though was grain. As I scoured this site for answers, I never found one that sufficed my claims.

The more I got familiar with the aesthetic style of image this camera produces, I can only further describe the subtle textures as "dancing."

The smaller artifacts when viewed full screen and up close sort of 'danced' around while interpreting the image, in both the light and darks of the image.

Does anybody else out there think their image "dances" in the xh-a1 digital interpretation of light?

I think I just needed to redefine my expectations for this era of "higher definition" ...

Jesse,

I think I have the same issue as you. After reading this thread, I am going to turn my AGC off and adjust the gain a bit and see if that helps. I certainly know what you are talking about, and am anxious to see if that fixes it.

I found the same thing Peter. With AGC OFF and gain set to zero I get a lot of noise in the dark areas of the image. It's possibly because I have the pedestal set to zero I guess. I'm hoping when I edit I can correct it by increasing the pedestal.