Bamboozled in the UK with Canon XH A1 wedding audio
 

Hi Everyone

This is my first post to these amazing forums. Any suggestions whatsoever on the below would be really appreciated.

I just bought a Canon XH A1 and I'm intending to start making wedding videos on my own. Well, with my non-technical father as my general assistant (minding my second camera and equipment).

First of all, I just want to say thank you to all of you who suggested the Libec 38 tripod. I've ordered one and look forward to receiving mine tomorrow. Another good suggestion I saw here was to use a large 'Sea to Summit' Dry Stuff Bag (£8.99 it only cost me) to use as a rain cover for the Canon XH A1, rather than splash out a small fortune on one.

As regards audio, I've gotten a bit confused with the sheer wealth of information available in these forums. My head's spinning! :o) I mean, I think I know what my ideal set-up would be (2 wireless microphones and transmitters feeding into the 2 XLR sockets on the Canon XH A1 so that whoever is closest to the relevant wireless microphone I could switch to that particular channel?)

I've had a good browse of these forums and have seen some excellent recommendations for microphones that could be used in weddings. However, quite a few of them aren't available in the UK. With the differing voltages and customs duties I'd prefer to play safe and buy microphones in the UK.

I like the look of the ew 112-p G2 (Model No. 2141) system with the ME 2 clip-on microphone (omni) which costs £399 here in the UK. I can only afford one of these. Basically this means I have a single receiver and a single transmitter.

At the back of the church and reception room, I will have a second, 3 Chip, camcorder rolling with its internal microphone throughout the ceremonies.

My main concern at the moment is being able to record any speakers who might be sat along a long table at the wedding reception (best man speech, groom speech, father of the groom speech, father of the bride speech). I've heard a decent suggestion about removing the wireless transmitter from the groom after the church, then 'hiding' it in a plastic champagne bottle at the reception table. Then, I would brief the families at the reception table to slide the bottle along to whoever is about to give a speech, irrespective of whether they are using a microphone connected to a PA system or not. How does this sound?

I would like a separate recording unit such as the old "IRiver" as a contingency plan should my wireless microphone fail for some reason. Since I can't afford another wireless microphone, should I need to have a microphone at a podium, I could use one of these 'separate' recording devices to record that sound close-up.

Unfortunately, the IRivers that are used by some videographers on these forums are no longer available - I've tried Ebay and search engines to no avail. Is anyone aware of something similar, with a microphone-in socket for a lavalier microphone, that might be available to buy in the UK?

Perhaps there is a very cheap wireless microphone system available that I could attach to the 'backup' 3-Chip camera? This could mean I have two wireless microphones sitting on the reception table and won't need to ask the families to slide along a plastic bottle!? Perhaps I should get 2 cheaper wireless systems instead of the ew 112-p G2? Know of any good ones available in the UK please?

I would also like something like a Rode NTG-2 microphone or Rode Videomic but I'm bamboozled with the adaptors, shockmounts and J-Rods I would need to use. I understand their purpose, but it's hard to know if my wireless receiver would be compatible with this:
"J-Rod Twin Shoe has 2 shoe mounts, allowing a microphone and a radio reciver to be mounted on the J-Rod"

Further to that, I can't find anywhere that sells J-Rods in the UK. I like the idea of having a snug fitting on the camera that will hold my 'shotgun mic' and receiver in the one easily accessible place, but is anyone aware of something similar to the J-Rod available in the UK? I don't fancy the DIY route as I'm pretty hopeless at DIY. :o)

Like I say, I'm a bit confused and would sincerely appreciate any suggestions you can offer me please. Sorry if some of my questions seem glaringly obvious and I come across as stupid!

Peter

Hmmm not sure what you mean by this, I've been in the business for a couple of years now will explain to you what I do. Audio is almost the most important part of your production, with two wireless lav mics you can cover the average wedding just fine. One mic for preacher and one mic on the groom. This set-up is the best for all round audio capture. You will run into trouble when there are musicians signing or others making speeches. Ideally you want four wireless mics but you can work with two. Plan ahead, make sure that the preacher is aware that the mic will need to move in case someone else is going to say something usually they are very accommodating and will give the other person the mic.

Before you buy this! Look at this:
Sennheiser | Evolution G2 100 Series - Wireless | EW100ENGG2 - A
If I knew this was around when I first bought my gear I would have saved myself so much trouble. It's the same EW112P G2 with the extra plug-in. The plug-in will save your butt! Spend the extra money and get that!

The XHA1 has a "Free-Run" option under time-code, when you use two cameras sync/set both "Free-Run" time-codes at the same time this will save you so much post sync work! Most pro cameras has this option. In Sony Vegas 8 Pro you just say sync using time-code and walla perfect, no need to waste hours syncing. This took me years to figure out.

Sounds no good!! Trust me on this at the reception they never remember your mic! It's your responsibility. The MC will be the best man for this job, brief him instead. Usually keeping a wireless mic on a stand forces everyone to meet at one point for the speeches, its your production, let the bride and groom, or MC know what won't work.

The best solution for this is to run through the DJ however "never!" trust a DJ! They will screw up your entire production, they usually get paid peanuts. You get a few good DJ's you'll learn to trust, the rest forget about them. Worst case scenario tape you lav mic to the DJ's mic with gaffer tape, lol, it works. If you get more money, buy a extra wireless handheld mic that you supply for the DJ and run through that. If all fails the on-cam mic on the XHA1 is pretty good, fall on that.

I usually hide a lav mic between the flower just to get reaction sound from bridal table.

The Sennheiser G2 will never fail! Blasphemy :P Separate recorder is not all that useful unless it's professional, save some money and get that extra plug-in with your Sennheiser.

NO NO NO NO!! Did I say that enough? NO! NO! Cheap wireless microphones will be your death! In no soft words. Don't even think it. I did this and what a mistake I had to buy the expensive one's anyway. Cheap = absolutely unreliable! You won't believe how crap they are.

You're starting, a second expensive wireless lav will benefit you much more than a shotgun, the on-board mic on the XHA1 is great and will do fine until you start making enough money to buy a NTG-2. A shotgun and all those extras is "really" not necessary when you start.

I wish you all the best! Just get in there and do it, the confusion will clear up as you are faced with problems, you'll find practical solutions and become a master at what you do. When you are all successful, invite me over to Ireland for a wedding :)

Hi Nicholas

Thanks for your really helpful suggestions. Very much appreciated.

Absolutely once I'm up and running you are more than welcome over to Ireland :o)

What purpose does the extra plug-in serve in the Sennheiser | Evolution G2 100 Series - Wireless | EW100ENGG2 - A please? I tried looking it up online but as far as I can see, it's a sort of transmitter?

Are you recommending that I would need to purchase 2 full sets of the Sennheiser | Evolution G2 100 Series - Wireless | EW100ENGG2 with plug-ins?

Or, if I only buy 1 set of the Sennheiser | Evolution G2 100 Series - Wireless | EW100ENGG2 with plug-in, is it possible to only purchase 1 additional lav mic and transmitter, without having to purchase an extra receiver etc as well?

Unfortunately I don't have a "Free-Run" timecode option on my little 3-Chip camera (Panasonic GS230), but great tip nonetheless should I buy an extra camera that has this option.

If I wasn't able to bring my 3-chip camera with me and I was on my own, would it be possible to have the audio from the 2 lav mics inputting directly into my XH A1 do you think?

All the best

Peter

You might consider using Minidisc recorders. I have them dotted about in the church (very useful on the lecturn for the readers) and on the top table for backup. You can never have too much audio backup at a wedding as Nicholas says.

My Minidisc recorders keep tight sync with my camcorders, wheras the Zoom H2 digital recorder loses sync very quickly.

tom.

Thanks very much for the prompt advice Tom.

Any particular makes of Minidisc recorder you might recommend please?

To keep the picture synched with the Minidisc(s) do you think the camera should be recording at a particular setting? eg. 25fps in the UK

Regards

Peter

Minidisc recorders (make sure thay have mic inputs as some were designed to record line-in only) are only available second hand now. I've had Sharp and Sony - all fine. Make sure it has an audio AGC or limiter on board, to stop laughter and clapping clipping the signal.

I feed mine with either a tie-clip mic or a little MKE300 Sennheiser mic. Run it in the mono mode for the highest quality and double the running time.

Always shoot at 25 fps - it's the PAL standard. I shoot at 50i because I like the smoothness and reality look for my weddings.

tom.

Thanks Tom,

There are a few available on UK Ebay - I'll check their specs with the manufacturer's websites to see if they have mic inputs and an audio AGC or limiter. Fingers crossed. Would be handy to snap up a couple of these just to put my mind at rest more than anything :o)

I'll post again with my findings.

Peter

I've been using a Zoom H2 recorder which is a great device: H2 Handy Recorder

It records to sd memory, has 4 onboard mics, sockets for mic in, line in/out, usb and has several agc settings, including off. It even looks kool!

Ian
Festival Video and Audio Previews - Festival Previews Ltd

yes, same problem here with the Zoom H4, easily solved though, just follow following tutorial to get the sound files in sync: http://www.mfbb.net/myvideoproblems/...yvideoproblems

You only need to do this procedure once, after that it's just a matter of using the free program audicity to correct the problem.

Looks like my rechargeable Braun shaver.

Very handy to know, thanks

I've only just spotted that someone else had already mentioned the Zoom H2.

I do get drift but only about 4 frames per hour, which is much less than what has been reported else where. I may have just been lucky to get an H2 whose crystal has been trimmed to be very close to that of the A1, by happy co-incidence.

Ian
Festival Video and Audio Previews - Festival Previews Ltd

THe Zoom H2 is definitely another handy possibility, especially now I know that there's a 'fix' that can be done should it ever drift out of synch

Thanks for your suggestion :o)

As regards an audio AGC or limiter, I've discovered a second-hand Minidisc for sale which, in its instruction manual, states for recording from external microphone:

"Adjust the recording level so that the maximum sound volume from the source makes the reading swing between --- 4 dB and 0 dB."

The fact that on this Minidisc it is possible to set the maximum recording level in stone - is this a 'limiter' do you think?

No, they're describing how to set the audio recording manually, though I've not come across one that has manual level settings yet doesn't have a switchable limiter.

My favourite at the moment is the Sony MZ-R900. It's the size of 3 Minidiscs stacked one on top of another and runs from a rechargeable, slim, internal NiMh cell. It's a lot smaller than my radio mic sender unit and fits in any pocket the groom has spare.

It has a 'hold' switch on the back and is hard-wired in the sense that a radio mic certainly isn't.

tom.

That's great Tom I'll have a look for that one

Here is the one I was looking at that's on sale for £10 - £35 - not sure about whether it has a switchable limiter though:

http://www.minidisc.org/manuals/shar...t80_manual.pdf

the H2 drift rate may also be a function of the chosen sampling frequency. When I got 4 frames/hour I was using 48KHz. The crystal pulses are divided down to provide the required clock, like 48KHz. Some of these synthetic frequencies will be less accurate than others.

It would be an interesting experiment to record an hours worth at each of the available sampling rates and measure the varying drift rates. It would only take a day or 2!

Ian
Festival Video and Audio Previews - Festival Previews Ltd

I had this very same Minidisc recorder Peter - but it was 'lifted' from the top table. The thief left behind my table-top mic and the mic itself, but of course he took all my speeches on the disc itself. Thank goodness for backup.

Know what? I can't remember if it does have an AGC built-in, but I guess it has as I can't remember having recordings spoilt by distortion. The instruction book doesn't mention it though.

tom.

Thanks Tom very helpful.

Yep as far as I'm concerned the more backup the merrier. If I can pick up a couple of these Minidisc Recorders as backup I think I'll be much more relaxed about each wedding shoot. They're all being old pretty cheaply! I suppose not that many people use them anymore since the advent of 'hard drive' MP3 player/recorders such as the ones from Creative etc

Isn't 2 microphones good enough for a wedding ?

1 wireless for the groom and 1 directional microphone on top of the camera. No complains from anyone so far and the sound were very good. The more microphones you use the hassle there will be.

My biggest concern would be picking up various different speakers sat along a long table at a wedding reception. I'd love to have just one minidisc up there on the table with them, as a 'failsafe' should the wireless one not pick them up properly.

I've done one wedding before only, my sister's, 8 years ago, on a boat in San Francisco, and I experienced wireless crackle and hiss just as they were about to say their vows with the captain! I immediately had to disconnect the wireless mic and resorted to the handheld shotgun I had. Ultimately I guess the sound turned out okay but that was only because I was close to them with the camera.

It's the bare minimum Anthony. Remember pictures is easy, sound are hard. I invariably have two radio mics, one shotgun and one Minidisc. More hassle maybe, but what's peace of mind at the edit bench worth?

i saw alot of wedding videos. They cut out everything accept the exchanges of the vowels and the speeches at the reception. The rest is all cd music on top and live music at the reception.

Don't worry too much Peter. Your camera microphone is good enough at the reception. If the guests CAN'T hear the speeches , its the DJ's fault. If they can hear, your camera also can hear. Its a wedding and not a movie production.

It may well be a wedding, but you've been paid to record it as faithfully and artistically as you can. If the guests can't hear the speeches on the day it's your job to make sure they can hear them word-perfect on your DVD - that's why you've been paid.

A camera mic certainly isn't good enough, and having the mic placed where the camera happens to be is invariably a huge audio compromise. Shotgun mics are still designed to be used close up to the noise - shotgun simply describing the pick-up pattern.

tom.

I've put a bid in for a Sony MZ-R900 wish me luck ;o)

Happy days - i managed to get one of these Sony MZ-R900 for about £50 :o) Handy backup. Tom can you recommend anywhere in the UK good for buying blank Minidiscs in bulk please?

Anthony, I'm not sure where you get your info from and certainly hope you don't shoot weddings, with your attitude you can't deliver a professional product/keep sake. In the highlights and promotional material you obviously only show the highlights and cut the rest, but my clients always want the full church service in the full production and they want to hear what was said.

As for one mic on the groom and shotgun, that's not a good setup for a professional production, but not everyone is pro. The sound you get off that groom mic is terrible, it echos, and sometimes the bride and groom whispers sweet things to each other that can't be included, if that was your main audio source you are screwed, it's only good for vows. As for a shotgun, like Tom clearly points out it's pretty useless for quality sounding audio unless you have it right in front of people or on a boom above their heads. Simple concept: expensive mic far away from speaker sounds crap, cheap mic right in front of speaker sounds awesome, placement is critical :)

deleted - received reply from Nicholas :o)

Peter - Minidiscs are about a pound wherever you look now. You won't need to buy in bulk - they can be reused for years and years.

That's great Tom thanks :o) I can't wait to use it. It will also be incredibly handy for recording sound effects for a couple of short films I'm about to make.

I've also bid for a MKE300 Sennheiser mic to use in conjunction with the Minidisc recorder. Fingers crossed I get it. You mentioned it's best to record on the Minidisc in Mono. On the detail page of the MKE300 it states "Please note this mike has been fitted with a stereo 3.5mm jack shorted to mono." I suppose the mic having been 'shorted to mono' wouldn't cause me any bother would it, since I'm recording in Mono anyway?

No bother at all - it's been wired for that to put the same signal across both channels of a camcorder. Or a Minidisc recorder come to that - but the beauty of setting your MD to record in mono is that it will record for twice the time at the same high quality.

I'm a big fan of minidisc and lashed out on what is arguably the best ie the HHB Portadisc.

I used it for voice recording and all the effects during a sailing trip across the Atlantic. It's robustness and the low cost of media were key factors.

However I came up against the limitations of minidisc when recording sealions in the surf (not something I would normally do, I was on a sound recording course at the time). It just couldn't handle that amount of data.

So, for most sound effects it will be fine but don't expect it to be able to cope with everything you throw at it.

In all seriousness, with recording available to SD and SDHC cards now, there is no way that investing in MD is a good idea. Don't get me wrong - I've been an avid MD user for a very long time, I currently have 6 from portables (as said above the HHB machine is superb and has a USB socket for getting audio in digitally to the editor) - but the manufacturers are not supoorting it an longer. All the professional rack mount machines bar two, have been discontinued, and the portables are getting rarer. In some towns the kids in the shops have never even heard of MD - In Belfast last Christmas, I found the last 5 in the Sony shop.

Zoom and Edirol seem very popular in the non-MD kit ranges.

Nobody has said much about using rifle mics - the one thing that is critical is that the person aiming them has the ability to hear what they 'collect'. Boom swinging is often given to the inexperienced ops who cannot hear what is going n - so very often they vaguely point the mic in the correct direction, but without listening - this is far too random. Pointing at the floor and ceiling as also very common.

Further up the OP asked about the plug in transmitter being raved about. I'd agree that these are amazingly useful. I don't do weddings but work in theatres - and they're great for attaching to a small mic on a small stand and sitting on the stage edge, or for giving to the sound op, who just plugs them into the mixer to send me a clean feed of the audio going to the PA. A sennheiser receiver on the camera is one way of getting audio into the camera, but I often have mains available and use a mains receiver to do the same thing.

The sennheiser kit with two transmitters and one receiver is cost effective, but two receivers is a must, really, in my view.

Thanks for the suggestions Paul, much appreciated. I got my recordable Minidisc 2nd hand for fifty quid, so not too bad an investment I feel, considering the new non-minidisc recorders appear to be at least double the price. According to the Ebay listing it's as good as new so hopefully I'll get a couple of years out of it anyway :o) Once I get a bunch of weddings under my belt I'll be able to upgrade to more state-of-the-art recording devices for backup.

Nicholas from earlier in this thread wrote me a very useful email with some valuable information which supports what you've said. Here is an excerpt:

"The plug-in is multipurpose and gives you flexibility sometimes you plug in directly to an audio desk from DJ or you can plug it into a dynamic handheld
mic then you actually have a handheld wireless at a fraction of the cost.

I'd suggest you buy two full sets, one combo with plug-in and another normal lav set, you only need one plug in. Here is a scenario, you convert a normal
handheld mic to a wireless with the plug, you put the mic on a stand and because you have two receivers you give one to the DJ for his system and you
plug one into your camera, tune both receivers on the same channel and the one plug-in (transmitter) will be picked up by two receivers.

Truth be told you are not going to be using the plug-in all the time however the little price difference makes it worth it for the situations that you
need it, you won't be able to get a standalone wireless handheld at that price.

Remember that one transmitter = one receiver. You can have one transmitter = two or more receivers but one receivers can't pick up signals from two
transmitters.

Yes you can definitely have two lavs on your XHA1. The XHA1 has two audio channels, just set the switches so channel 1 and 2 is separate."

Thanks Richard for your advice :o)

Well, it should hopefully be a bit more convenient than using my Panasonic GS230 to record sound effects, wasting valuable Minidv tapes :o)

Hi Tom

What type of tie-clip mic do you use with your Sony MZ-R900 please? Also, for your MKE300 Sennheiser mic, do you have that on a little stand by the top table during the speeches at the reception? If so, what kind of stand do you use? I was thinking that if I just left the mic on the table, propped up with a bottle or something, it might be liable to pick up table knocks and thuds as people move about in their seats? Might you use the MKE300 Sennheiser mic for anything else?

Peter - here's a shot of the mini recording set-up I use on the top table (shown here with the Sharp recorder that was lifted). It's generally backup, but I do love backup, any backup. The fold up stand is from Jessups, less than 15 quid.

A little self contained Minidisc recording set-up. So useful for audio backup.

The tie-clip mic is a Sony. Pretty cheap but then a cheap mic up close rocks I always say. In fact often the vows from the couple are 'too clear' in the church because of this close micing, and need to be downgraded somewhat with a mix from the shotgun.

tom.

Why in this day of fantastic stereo sound on films and tv do you guys film your weddings in mono sound,do the customers like that way,i am just interested.

Always shoot mono Martyn - it's the way all professionals shoot.

You can pan, mix, equalise, boost, coagulate to your heart's content in the peace and privacy of your edit suite - just get good, clear, undistorted sound at the scene of the crime, ok?

Of course the added music will be stereo and if I use the Z1's on board mics for ambiance it'll be a sort-of stereo. I say sort-of because every move I make moves the stereo image around - and this can be quite disconcerting through headphones off the DVD.

Shoot mono - it's simple.

tom.