HD Component Out?
 

Does the A1 support HD component out? Uncompressed 4:2:2 HD component out? I'd love HD-SDI, but the extra $3k is probably beyond my budget!

Just like all other HDV camcorders, both the XH G1 and A1 offer uncompressed analog component output. You can see the component output D-Terminal jack in the photos on my site at http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxh/articles/images1.php -- six image down from the top, click on it to see a bigger version. Yes it is 4:2:2 but keep in mind it is an analog signal not digital. Hope this helps,

However, it would be the same as the HD100/110/200, HVX200, and Z1/FX1, correct?

Not sure I understand your question -- but no. Some of the cameras you list are 720 and others are 1080. Analog component output from the Canon XH G1 or A1 will most closely match the Canon XL H1.

You had distinguished between the analog component signal and the HD-SDI signal. I was just confirming that other than the H1, G1, and HD250, all of the sub-$10k cameras use analog component output.

Most seem to offer a choice of outputs. I think the HD100/110/200 and HVX200 offer 1080i and 720p with the frame rate set separately. Presumably the 24p frame rate is a 2:3 pulldown in both cases.

Do the Canon's only have 1080i analog component out?

Is the component output much worse than the HD-SDI output?

All of the HD cameras in this class have component output.

All of the Canon cameras are 1080.

Component output is uncompressed analog. SDI output is uncompressed digital.

So...
 

Wow! so I had no idea that even on the A1 the component output is uncompressed, albeit analog, but still ....So this begs the question, are there any comparisons between uncompressed analog HD (I guess captured via some component HD card?) and digital uncompressed HD (SDI)?
I know for the digital purists this would be a no-go but it might be interesting just to see the actual difference that $3K gets.

A few years back, in a bind, I output some effects on a Hi8 tape via SVHS output onto a flame and the stuff looked great, we could not tell the difference between the other straight from digital effects for the project.

I think this falls under the realm of capture card comparisons; i.e. HD analog component capture vs. HD digital (SDI) capture. My friend Mike Curtis of HD For Indies (from Austin) specializes in this sort of thing; check his blog at www.hdforindies.com

By the way I don't know that "uncompressed" is really the right word; as the component output is 4:2:2 and not 4:4:4, so you can argue that it actually is compressed, but then again it's an analog output so you can argue that it's not compressed. Either way it should be realized that the only way to benefit from capturing the component output is if you can do it live while shooting, and then you're looking at being tethered to a capture station on the set. Currently there are no laptop solutions for component video or SDI capture. Capturing component video while shooting is neither lightweight nor portable nor inexpensive.

Coming out of A1 via component video
 

In lieu of getting the G1 with SDI HD output, am wanting to know a good, economical way to get the component video into a Mac (desktop or laptop) and FCP. So that I'm ready to edit in DVCPRO HD?

What's the best way to handle the audio in this scenario? What happens with timecode?

I'm pretty sure you can use FirweWire as your control connection and time code. Then you'd need a capture card from AJA or Blackmagic. They both offer breakout boxes as well for easier connections. Then you capture from componnent out to any codec you want. Use the analog audio out.

So, everything -- video, audio and TC -- will be in sync even though they are coming in through three separate modes?

Does anyone have a recommendation among the AJA and Blackmagic capture cards?

Hey Gene,

Alot of what you are looking for is buried in this thread...

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=77572&page=4

Good Luck,
Jay

That's the problem. I'm not sure all will be in sync. Use a clapper for each shot.

We use AJA stuff and just ordered the Kona LHe for a MacPro we are setting up for live HD/SDI capture. You can read about the setup HERE. The first shoot we will use it on is next week and I will be updating that thread with info about the system and it's performance along with photos and video.

We have had great success with the AJA Kona LHe and using it via HD SDI.

If you want timecode, you might want to look into Convergent Design's HD Connect: http://www.convergent-design.com/

This takes the firewire out and converts it into audio, video and timecode via SDI & RS422.

Good luck.

KW

my take on analog out
 

So....the analog out on these types of camcorders is USUALLY pre-compression - that is, the image hasn't been run through the losses incurred by HDV or DVCPRO HD compression. That is GOOD.

HOWEVER...this is analog output, not digital. And it is the analog outputs on sub $10,000 cameras...I get the impression this isn't going to be the best quality analog circuitry in this class of camera - it really was only intended for monitoring purposes. ALL HD tape formats are digital.

So...the analog route means you skip the horizontal subsampling, the compression artifacts, etc. which is good....but then you suffer digital to analog to digital losses. The image is softer having gone through the process.

I haven't finished analyzing the analog vs. digital stuff from Texas HD Shootout, where I capture both ways for comparison's sake.

Ideally, you'd capture over HD-SDI.

Or HDMI, but that's another thread.

David, I was just thinking about that.
I would be interested in the extra color info for keying.

I was thinking this would be more of a hassle than it's worth, but You could record to tape in HDV while at the same time through component to get the 4:2:2 for a key and then use the mat on the HDV video.

That probably wouldn't work out well, but it was just me thinking out loud.

Also from what I read here component out is only 60i.
BTW I like the thought of having HDMI it would be cool if this camera had it.

a couple of comments:
chris: it's just semantics, but, to my way of thinking 4:2:2 isn't really "compressed", just capture of less than all the available data. Compression implies, to my mind, a mathematical processing technique to reduce a file size. As I said,,,,this is somewhat academic to argue the points of semantics. Uncompressed implies native capture...in this case, even if it is 4:2:2. Analog vs digital is just the means of capturing the data, digitized/dithered 0's and 1's vs a continuous analog stream. One could agrue that ALL digital data is compressed, since it records only discrete snapshots in time rather than a continuous stream. Now that i think about it, analog capture is discrete frames in time, so where's the "continuous stream? LOL 30 FPS could be considered uncompressed compared to 24 FPS. the faster the frame rate, the more "uncompressed" it is, yes? oh well...word games.

So, it remains to be asked whether analog capture of 4:2:2 at some frame rate is more uncompressed than digital 4:2:2 at the same frame rate. And, which method gives the best final picture...after all, it's the final picture quality we're all interested in.

Why can't someone like Videonics(Firestore) capture digital 4:2:2 (HD-SDI) on a firestore device, instead of .m2t streams? This would mean, of course, that the firewire input would have to be replaced by 3 component RCA plugs for component input, or one SDI BNC plug for HD/SD-SDI, since by the time the signal gets to the firewire bus, it's been compressed to 4:2:0.

Oh, and HDMI is EXACTLY the same video signal as DVI. The only difference is that HDMI has two channels of audio integrated into the connector rather than seperate RCA connections. As far as the video signal is concerned, the quality is identical to DVI.

Well if you are talking about compression relative to the camera then 4:2:2 is uncompressed if that is all the info the A1 can capture. so I guess it is uncompressed it's just not a 4:4:4 camera.

A1 analog component
 

I am curious about the use of the analog component out of the A1. We know the analog out circumvents the HDV codec entirely and outputs 4:2:2 uncompressed 8-bit (semantic differences on whether the term "uncompressed" even applies to analog, notwithstanding). This can be a very good thing.

However, the analog component on the A1 apparently only outputs a 60i signal. So, two questions:

1. What does this mean for shooting in 24F and 30F? Will an HD field monitor hooked into the analog component not display 24F/30F properly, thus not giving you an accurate WYSIWYG image?
2. If you are tethered to a computer to capture the analog 4:2:2, and shooting in 24F, will the footage be captured by the computer as 60i? How will you be able to edit in 24F?

And, two more questions on the analog component:
3. What is the best HD field monitor out there for use with the A1 analog HD component out?
4. Can anyone say (or show!) what advantage HD-SDI has over analog component, both in terms of monitoring and final image quality? I've seen a comparison of HDV vs. analog 4:2:2 coming from the A1, and the difference to me was very small.

Apologies if any of this is cross posted or otherwise in the wrong place.

The 30F will sit inside of the analog 1080i stream which means it will look exactly like it was 30F. 24F adds pulldown to sit inside of the 1080i stream so it looks like any other 24p footage that has pulldown added in it such as movies on a DVD being watched on a tube based TV. Since in the real NTSC world we cannot watch a native 24p anyways this is exactly how most of us are used to seeing 24p (outside of a movie theater).

If you want to capture live uncompressed or lightly compressed 24p footage from component you will have to have a tool or software to remove the pulldown from the video. Once you do that you will have true 24p footage to edit with in your NLE.

I'm not sure what monitor would give you the best results with component.

Your 4th question is a very good question and one that as of yet has not really been answered. Of course one would say that SDI would of course be better because it is digital. Analog is of course analog and can be a little soft and can have a little bit of noise on low quality cables or long distance cables. Does it really show or make a difference? I do not know. All I know is that analog does look very good and will give you very good results with high quality capture devices. I have not captured HD uncompressed but I have captured uncompressed component SD and a DV over firewire and I was very happy with the analog SD. It was a hair softer but it was clean and artifact free and of course 4:2:2 color. While SDI may be better I am not about to complain about only having component on some cameras. Just think a few years ago we didn't have any options at all for uncompressed capture and now we can even do it with consumer HDV cameras. Many of us would have killed for uncompressed component output on a DV camera and now we all have it on every HDV camera. This is a huge thing and shouldn't be looked at lightly.

Visually, there isn't much of a difference between Component and HD-SDI. They are so similar that you will not see a difference upon close inspection of the raw frames, more so after editing and compression for distribution.

But...

HD-SDI can be run over long lengths without trouble or degradation (that's the digital part).

While Component only stacks up with HD-SDI over short distances.

So if you're running from your camera to your computer in one room and the run is only ten feet...your fine.
If you're on location and running through the set with a thirty foot cable...you want HD-SDI.

In addition, HD-SDI carries your timecode info and audio all in one cable, nice but certainly not necessary in a video quality standpoint.

Thank you, Thomas and Brent. Excellent information that clears many things up.

So IMHO the case for getting the A1 instead of the G1 has been made even stronger. If, as Brent states, analog component 4:2:2 is indeed nearly indistinguishable from HD-SDI, the only advantage (outside TC & audio) is cable length. Anyone out there want to contest this?

Regarding cable length, yes it would be quite limiting to have only 10 foot runs of analog cable to work with for some shots (i.e. tracking shots, moving handheld or long takes, etc). But for these shots, since the HDV A1 footage is a *very* close match to the analog 4:2:2 (as I said earlier), difficult shots like these could probably be done simply using the HDV to tape. Anyone think this would be a bad idea, to try to match the HDV to the analog 4:2:2?

It increasingly seems to me that the extra $3k for the G1 isn't even close to justified, unless you really need that JackPack.

My third question is still wide open:
3. What is the best HD field monitor out there for use with the A1 analog HD component out?

The best field monitor we've found so far is the Panasonic BT-LH1700W. It's got all the inputs -- SD/HD-SDI, SD/HD component analog, NTSC if needed...also includes a basic waveform which is extremely valuable on location. At 1st I was concerned in not using a CRT -- but there really is no HD CRT available for field production. The 1700W's color representation is very accurate, the display is full raster, and there are numerous possibilites for tweaking depending on the gamma setings, etc., you use in-camera in the field. In our main HD post suite we are using the big brother -- the 2600W -- for HD monitoring, while still using a Sony Evergreen SD CRT for critical color correction.

As far as SD vs. Analog -- you can absolutely use longer component analog cable runs than 10 feet! I've run a component post facility since 1992, and am confident that you can have cable runs w/out ANY loss through cable xmission of at least 50ft., and I have done this as long as 80ft. Of course, you need to use high-quality cables & connectors. As stated in above posts, there is a slight softening in the image due to resolving the color info in analog, but nothing to be frightened of.

Keith

Depending on how you're doing your post, you might consider an HDV to HD-SDI converter, such as those from Convergent or Miranda.

Thanks Keith, that Panny looks very nice.

How do people feel about the Astro Systems monitors, such as the 6" DM-3005? They are much smaller than Keith's Panasonic, but they do have component inputs ("analog YPbPr"). There's also an 8" version (DM-3008), and a 15" version (DM-3015). They also make 6" and 8" Waveform+VectorScope monitors (WM-3004M and WM-3007), which apparently can be used as regular monitors as well.

The Astro Systems website shows the 6 inch DM-3005 as supporting the signal inputs below. Does "1920 x 1080 24sF/23.98sF" mean the Canon A1's 24F mode is supported? What is 24sF?

1920 x 1080 60i/59.94i
1920 x 1080 50i
1920 x 1080 25p
1920 x 1080 30sF/29.97sF
1920 x 1080 24sF/23.98sF
1920 x 1080 24p/23.98p
1920 x 1080 30p/29.97p
1920 x 1080 25sF
1920 x 1035 60i/59.94i
1280 x 720 60p/59.94p
1280 x 720 50p
1280 x 720 30p/29.97p
1280 x 720 25p
1280 x 720 24p/23.98p
720 x 487 59.94:
720 x 487/50i

Poor! The 6" is over $5k.

They are nice if you have around $6-Grand or more burning a hole in your pocket.

Uh, I see.

Well, money issues aside! - Can anyone comment on the Astro? I am still curious about its feasibility to monitor the A1 as a um, rental...

Component out...again
 

Im about to buy an A1. My only doubt: what kind of signal comes from the component out?

In the manual says it delivers D3 (1440x1080).

What is this? Uncompressed 8 bit high def video? Am i lost?

Thanks!

Hernan

uncomcressed
 

That is on the G1- you can capture uncompressed via SDI out put which I think is 1.45 Mbs but you have to be going to a hard drive. And you are going to have to pay a lot more for that option, which could be very worth it given the right person.
Branon Potthoff

uncompressed also worth...
 

... for the right project

of course i know about SDI and the G1 jackpack´s. anyway if i had an easier budget i would probably go for the XH L1 (thats my future plan). its not my present situation

so, still, what type of signal comes out of the component output of the A1? Any of the hundreds A1 owners know this?

Thanks!

If it's of any help you you, when I feed the raw component output to my HDTV, the display info tells me it's 1920 x 1080i.

According to this thread....

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=83325

....it is pre hdv compression, full faster 4:2:2.

finally seems that its uncompressed... isn t it?
 

Thanks Todd (and Neil), that link was very useful! In my opinion the component out frame looks with better contrast and color definition. Its more film-like.

So, if somehow we could record that signal on to a portable DTD a la firestore with component in... voila. Bypassed the 3k difference of the G1.

So:

1. Anybody has any idea how to do this? My films are run n gun documentaries, mostly outdoors and in complicated situations/environments (this "component uncompressed" gear must be really portable). I would surely invest to get this difference in image.

2. Is the signal uncompressed 4:2:2 1440x1080i 8 bit as i suppose, or...?

Would be also interesting to check what happens with the HV 20... i will ask our neighbours

You will have to be tethered to something that can ingest via component AND it has to have the throughput to support the ingest meaning a raid solution. Lots of HD space depending on how much time you are capturing as well. Bottom line it would require a studio type situation using a computer with a capture card and a raid to support the write speeds needed(probably 4 drive sata raid minimum).

D3 is a standard definition composite digital standard promulgated by Panasonic that never reached wide acceptance. It took an NTSC signal and digitized the whole thing and recorded on VHS sized tapes. I'm not sure why Canon keeps listing it in their manual, when it's clear that what they are outputting through the Component Out terminals is an ANALOG component signal. Page 98 of the manual makes that pretty clear. it shows the component out being connected to the analog component inputs of a monitor using the supplied breakout cable.

Since you're talking about run & gun shooting, there is no approach that I'm aware of that would do an analog to digital conversion, and then record that uncompressed digital signal onto a hard drive. In fact, no single drive I'm aware of has the throughput to keep up with all that data - it takes a RAID. Hey, if you find a setup like that, I want one too!

I'm afraid what you're after is prevented by TANSTAFL (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch). $3k is a little pricey for the digital outputs on the G1, but I'm still amazed they could do it in such a small camera to begin with. In fact I'm stunned by the quality of the images and the depth of image controls packed into the camera section of the A1/G1.

Bottom line, if you need uncompressed output in the field, plan on paying for the G1, and rental of a D5 tape recorder & a power inverter to run it.
And a really big guy to follow you around with the deck, inverter and car battery to run it all.

Component out: analog or digital? & what's the diff HD vs. SD analog components?
 

Sorry if this seems obvious, but it's not to me... I don't own an XHA1 yet, but I'm reading the manual and it shows the component out to be one cable (on the camera end) that splits into the classic three headed analog component out at the TV/Monitor end. So, I'm assuming this is HD Component Analog - correct?

Now to further my education beyond the XHA1:

There also co-exists Analog Component and Digital Component? Analog Component uses 3 cables, and Digital Component uses 1. Both send three seperate signals - Are they the same in quality?

And now that we are in a HD/SD world, somethings are HD Analog Component, while others are only SD Analog Component - how do you know which is which?
...and
What's the difference - screen resolutions, 4:2:2 vs 4:1:1, hell I don't know now I'm making things up?

Is there two seperate/different cables HD Analog Component and an SD Analog Component or do you use the same cabling?

Furthermore, I'm confused because I own (purchased before the HDV explosion) a Sony PVM Production monitor with among the many in/outs: analog component. What would the picture from the XHA1 via the component out look like using the Analog component ins of my Sony PVM14L2? Would the screen be so squished/distorted that I:
Could NOT pull Critical Focus? Could NOT CC? Or would I be fine? (there are the underscan and a 16:9 buttons if this helps)?

Lost in the component confusion,
and thanks for any help,
Lonnie

Hi Lonnie. I can help with some of these, maybe others can also chime in.

The A1 component out is analogue, as you say. It's a YUV type signal, and can be HD or SD according to how you set it in the menu option. So there is only one set of output connectors and only one cable.

The SD signal is 720x480 for NTSC, 720x576 for PAL. The HD analogue signal resolution has 1080 lines and has 16:9 aspect ratio, but I'm not sure if the horizontal resolution counts as 1440 or 1920 by the time it has been converted to analogue. HDV colour sampling is 4:2:0, SD NTSC is 4:1:1 and SD PAL is 4:2:0.

The only digital output on the A1 is the firewire port, which is serial data. Don't know if the SD signal is considered component or not, but it contains the same video information as the analogue output. For HDV through firewire, you get an MPEG2 transport stream that can be edited in an NLE or played back in a media player. Never heard of this being called component either.

The G1 camera and the H1 both have an SDI interface which outputs uncompressed digital video, i.e. no HDV encoding at all. This will give you the best video quality, provided you have a suitable editing machine that is fast enough to receive the SDI data and has big enough hard drives to store it all.

Your Sony monitor should be able to accept the SD component output OK, cos if I'm not wrong the component input can take both RGB and YUV. Even if you shoot HDV you still set the A1 component out to SD, and use the 16:9 setting on the monitor to see the picture without distortion. If you shoot SD, you have the choice of 16:9 or 4:3 aspect ratio on the camera and you would set the monitor accordingly.

Richard

Thanks for all that Richard!

Now, what would happen if I shoot and record to HDV and have the component out settings in the cameras menu set to HD, and then connect to my Sony's analog component-in ports?

Will I not get a signal? or in regards to dimensions - Will it just look terrible/squished/cropped or ???
and with regards to color - what will it look like???

Thanks,
Lonnie