Feedback needed for new preset
 

Can someone please test this preset in a variety of situations? I've been trying to develop a preset that gives vibrant colors but without a color cast. There have been reports of magenta hues from other stuff I've created.

Gamma: Cine2
Color Matrix: Cine2
Color Gain: -15
Color Phase: 0
Knee: Low
Black: Middle
Master Ped: -7
Setup Level: 0
Horizontal Detail Frequency: Middle
H/V Detail balance: 0
Sharpness: 0
NR1: Off
NR2: Off
Coring: 0
Red Gain: 10
Green Gain: 15
Blue Gain: 15
RG Matrix: 10
RB Matrix: 10
GR Matrix: 10
GB Matrix: 15
BR Matrix: 25
BG Matrix: 25

Below is a still using this preset...

Hey Steven, I haven't tested this, but judging from the still, at least on this monitor, it looks as if it has a green cast.

Bill

I had the same feeling before I scrolled down and saw Bill's post. To me even seemed to show up in the tracks in the parking lot and in the black top...

Yeah, I was looking at it on an uncalibrated monitor in work and now that I see it on my own monitor, it does have a greenish cast. Back to the drawing board. :)

EDIT: Actually, if anyone wants to take a stab at maintaining the vividness of the preset and losing the green cast without getting a magenta hue, I'd welcome it.

i can't post an attachment, but using color correcton i got it quite nice in vegas.

just boost the red midtones and a hint of saturation in the preset and you should have it.

here's an upload http://www.photoposting.net/fullsize.aspx/IDp~5920

I spent a LOT of time finding a preset that was vibrant, yet without color casts.

Avoid all basic gains and cuts to the RGB channels. They thwart the white balance. Only use them if the white balance itself is what's broken. The answer for saturated color tones is found in the matrix adjustments. And for those, I shot a bowl of fruit, bananas, limes, red peppers, yellow peppers, green peppers, apples, grapes, oranges, cucumbers, onions, in a neutral tan basket, with shadow and light, sitting on dark furniture. (Okay I, realize some of those are vegetables). You always know what fruits and vegetables should look like. Sometimes with color bars, you don't. The color of wood is something you should strive to make faithful. You can easily see the effect of a lot of colors mixed into finished furniture, like excessive magenta and reds. Compare the colors on the the screen to the actual objects themselves. Glance back and forth. You can do this with the LCD screen.

And about the LCD screen, there is one thing you should know. After you exit the settings menu, the LCD goes back to default picture settings. Don't believe me? Turn color saturation down until it goes to black and white. Exit the menu. What happened? Back to full color display! Black and white goes to tape, but the LCD is completely useless for displaying your saved menu settings except while you are in the menu adjusting them. So don't trust it!

I had to define what I found wrong. An overall magenta hue to neutral tones, and severely muted greens, and slightly less severely muted reds. How I wanted to fix it, negate the magenta, and bring out the yellow inside greens, make the red and greens more saturated, and keep the whites looking white.

I adjusted each matrix setting to see the effect, wrote down what I observed before returning each back to zero, then moved on to record the next adjustment. You have to return each one to zero because if you don't, each successive adjustment will be a conglomeration of the previous adjustment, which is where I think Steven could be going wrong. He's adjusted everything, and most all of them in the same direction. My theory is to identify the exact change you want, and find the ONE adjustment that most successfully targets the change. Identify and target. Fewer, simpler, more subtle adjustments. Get the tonality in balance, then bring up the saturation, and retain the balance.

The thing I try and avoid though, is changing too many things at once. Except for saturation, all your settings are in the same direction. I believe if you turn one thing up, you should look for opportunities to turn something else down.

How many times have you seen a graphic equalizer with all the sliders pushed up? All the time! It just makes the frequency response worse. Same for video. Your baseline should be zeros.

Enough about how I did it. Here are the settings. This is my signature preset for outdoors, sunny or shade. Just about perfect. Vibrant but natural.

AWB=On (very trustworthy with these settings)
Aperture: F3.2-4.0 (Best for maximal resolution and contrast. Use ND to get desired shutter speed)
Gamma: Cine1
Color Matrix: N
Color Gain: +50 (You read right)
Color Phase: 0
Knee: Auto
Black: Middle
Master Ped: +2 (Enhances shadow detail, but if lighting is flat, use 0 for Master Ped)
Setup Level: 0
Horizontal Detail Frequency: High (reduces twitter and moire)
H/V Detail balance: 0
Sharpness: +3 (Crisp, but halo free)
NR1: Off
NR2: Off
Coring: 0
Red Gain: 0
Green Gain: 0
Blue Gain: 0
RG Matrix: 0
RB Matrix: -15 (Negates the magenta hue in neutral tones, makes wood look like wood)
GR Matrix: 0
GB Matrix: 8 (Makes red and greens more vibrant)
BR Matrix: 0
BG Matrix: 10 (Takes some blue from green, adds life to greens)

On my calibrated Pioneer Elite 1080p plasma monitor, these settings positively pop. Vibrant color adds contrast and makes the image look 3D, but realistic and natural. At least I think so. Hope they work for you.

Wow, excellent post Tom. I'll give your setting a try. Thanks so much for sharing your insights.

Good post Tom, however this confuses me. Mine doesn't behave like that... unless I'm missing something in your statement. The only way mine would do as you say would be if there's no Preset active beforehand, or another Preset is active (different than the one being adjusted)... then of course it will default to whatever Preset was active OR not when exiting the menu.

What am I not getting? :-\

Bill

I'm just saying that once I exit the preset menu and go back to recording video, what gets displayed on the LCD does not look like what my current preset is. The LCD just goes back to default system colors. So for example, if I created a preset where I turned color saturation down to zero, i.e. black and white, once I escape the preset menu and start recording video, the LCD is displaying colors again.

If yours is not working like that, I'll have to look into it again.

Not sure what you are doing Tom but this is not the way the camera works. For instance, when I shoot using my black and white preset, the LCD reflects that monochrome look. The same holds true for all the others.

This behavior sounds like this is what is happening. I may be wrong but at least verify this is not it.

You are on Custom preset X. You go into your custom presets and choose CP Y. You adjust settings and you are seeing it on the screen. You save and you exit and then you see the changes disappear. This happens because you have gone back to Custom Preset X. You need to toggle to Custom Preset Y to see the changes you made. Or, if your custom preset is off it will do the same. The Camera stays in whatever mode you were in, regardless of what preset you chose to edit.

I hope that it is something simple like this. User error. I always say that I prefer that "I" make a bonehead error that I can simply correct rahter than it actually being a problem with the equipment I am using that I have to have fixed. Not saying you are a bonehead....just hoping that you are overlooking something simple.

The behavior you are describing is not how my A1 worked.

Good Luck!

You have to explicitely choose CP Y! Modifying and saving it is not enough - when you leave the menu, your active preset will be the one active before you entered the menu.

I'll try it right now and report back 10 minutes

Read Carefully so there's no misunderstanding...
 

I'm an idiot!!!!

I've imagined the whole thing! It's all been inside my head because I haven't had the custom preset switched on since I've had this cam. Grrrhhh!!!!

For helping me out of my imagined bliss, I hate you all! (Lol..)

And if I don't turn on the preset it didn't go to tape either. It sucks to be me right now.

At least your camera isn't broke! Good Luck from here.

Remember...what doesn't kill us......makes us stronger. And smarter.

Peace!

I'm crackin' up! No worries Tom. We all have our doofus moments. :D

So at this point I'm assuming your detailed post earlier regarding the Preset was from looking at a connected monitor & not just you hallucinating? :)

Bill

Just curious why you would use this? I NEVER use AWB unless I'm going from one color temperature to a radically different temp. May appear trustworthy, but why risk it?

We've all been there :)

So does this mean that what you described seeing on your plasma (ie, vibrant "3d" colors) was not from this preset?

I have to say I wondered about this also. For any professional application, you would never want a shifting WB no matter how subtle.

It was an un-retouched m2t stream captured from tape played back over HDMI connection from a Toshiba HD-DVD player to the plasma.

Which also means every single thing I thought was improved by custom presets since I got this thing, was hallucinated.

It explains why I still see the magenta hue on indoors footage. I think the preset settings I posted in the detailed post will work for the earlier reasons stated, but the +50 gain setting is probably way over the top, and possibly the BG Matrix can be backed off somewhat. But I'm back to square one. Need to see these on the monitor.

From the top:
Open box, remove packing, read safety warnings, mail in warranty registration....sick.

If it wasn't such a joke on me I'd pull the post.

I'm the poster child for how anyone with a keyboard and the internet is a DP.

Yes the image is vibrant and vivid, made more so by springtime colors and effective medications.

I haven't always used AWB. I've often used a white card or the 5600-5800 Kelvin temperature settings for daylight, 3200K for tungsten, but AWB I maintain has it's place, particularly in mixed indoor lighting where you pan from tungsten to cool white fluorescent.

But take it from a guy who told you he had a world beating preset, looking for a hole to hide in.

Just took a couple of test shots using your suggested settings and, wow, I think we'll call this one vividpro :)

Okay, again, I'm working from a weird monitor so I need some objectivity.

Are you guys seeing any kind of cast on this shot?

too much red highlight.

can you control midtone on the preset?

Not sure but this is going to do me for a neutral preset with vibrant colors. Doesn't look so vibrant right now because it's a dull day. I can more easily correct the red highlights in post :)

Gamma: Cine1
Color Matrix: N
Color Gain: +35 (adjust to taste)
Color Phase: 0
Knee: Low
Black: Middle
Master Ped: -5
Setup Level: 0
Horizontal Detail Frequency: High (or mid, depending on your preference)
H/V Detail balance: 0
Sharpness: +3 (or adjust to taste)
NR1: Off
NR2: Off
Coring: 0
Red Gain: 0
Green Gain: -10
Blue Gain: 0
RG Matrix: 0
RB Matrix: -15
GR Matrix: 0
GB Matrix: 8
BR Matrix: 0
BG Matrix: -15

I have now included this new preset with a still from the camera in the presets section.

Stephen, some of your settings are similar to the ones I posted (before I realized I wasn't actually reaping them). Now that I have CP's turned on, I borrowed some of what you did, a subtle refinement, still a strong resemblance. Once I saw the effect of CPs, I felt my sharpness +3 was too high so I took that to zero. Since Cine1 gamma I also wasn't getting, and because I like the video-reality look of HD-Net/Discovery HD Theater I selected normal to be consistent with what I was getting before. After I got the matrix settings looking as close as I could get them, I was left with a slight green bias in the whites, saw what you did there and turned the green gain down, but -1 was all it took for me. I did not see the red push in the highlights the other poster noted from you picture, but I will look at it again on a different monitor.

Gamma: Normal
Color Matrix: N
Color Gain: +28
Color Phase: 0
Knee: Auto
Black: Middle
Master Ped: 0
Setup Level: 0
Horizontal Detail Frequency: Mid
H/V Detail balance: 0
Sharpness: 0
NR1: Off
NR2: Off
Coring: 0
Red Gain: 0
Green Gain: -1
Blue Gain: 0
RG Matrix: 0
RB Matrix: -10
GR Matrix: 0
GB Matrix: 10
BR Matrix: 0
BG Matrix: -13

Yeah, I don't really see a red highlight problem but the picture is small. These kinds of subtle color tones are sometimes hard to spot even on a 50 inch monitor. In fact it's definitely not a problem to even characterize it that way. If there is a slight cast it's hard to see. Perhaps the poster has observed some red fringing on the white pickup truck, or a faint red in the sky. The problem with faint reds in the sky, is sometimes they do exist in the scene and are not color casts therefore.

could you add it to the preset downloads
 

will you be adding this to the present downloads? Or making a preset file?

Tom, I loaded up your preset and there are two things that stand out about it:

1. It's a little muddy and/or milky in the midtones (I realize that can be made richer in post)
2. There is a definite green cast that I find distracting

Anyway, that's just my opinion, it may work for others.

Thanks for your efforts

Here's a comparison of the two:
Tom's on the left, mine on the right. Neither frame has been retouched, straight out of the camera.

And thank you too for trying it! But that's weird. I would never allow a green cast like that. The chief difference between our color settings is the treatment of the green gain channel, -1 for me, -10 for you.

I will post a screen capture in daylight scene and see if this green cast exists. I was tweaking the setting under white balanced tungsten illumination.

Okay Tom, go ahead and try it in daylight. I just double checked to make sure I had transferred the settings correctly from your post and I did.

One more comment about your settings is the knee. As a general rule, I don't have anything set to auto because it will introduce a variable into your picture. When knee is set to auto on the Canon, the effect is slow to kick in and can sometimes be quite noticeable if a high contrast object creeps into your frame. My advice is to avoid auto anything at all costs unless you are shooting a locked down scene with no light changes.

on my laptop they both look good.
however, on my workstation there is a milky green cast as stated.
the area where i noticed the red highlights is cropped..but that part looks good.

i see the red highlights right behind the cars and the tire tracks. it looks like a truck carting red bricks drove through there.

im using a 27" 1920x1200 monitor and passing through these images to a 30" 1280 HDTV via Vegas.

Stevens preset is still really nice. Crisp and Vibrant. Color correction can easily fix what I'm seeing.

Could someone quickly explain what the matrix settings actually control, as I'm having a hard time working it out (as I sit here randomly creating the most ugly looking colour-casts you've ever seen!)

RG matrix (for example) - does that boost / cut the amount of RED+GREEN (together), or does that shift the balance from RED to GREEN?

Why are there both RG and GR matrices?

unless you are using a calibrated monitor
 

in order to truly see this photo accurately you would need to be using a hardware calibrated monitor. Steven's most recent photo looks quite accurate to me.

Steven and Eric,
Here's the thing, the grabs that came from Steven's cam using his settings are unquestionably closer to target. But what's unfortunate is that our two cameras seem to treat the identical presets much differently. I copied Steven's settings exactly. I shot a couple grabs in daylight and it shows there as a magenta push, where the street pavement looks pinkish. But it REALLY jumps out as a magenta push on the white walls and inside the shadows, as seen inside my office, so that's what I'm posting.

Steven, are you shooting with any kind of filter? I'm not. And if that's not the difference, this is unfortunate because it means presets are not calibrated between cams. Your grabs look best on your settings, but my grabs with your settings have a magenta push the equal of the green cast you saw on your grabs from my settings.

Steven's on the left, mine on the right.

Tom,

My white balance for the test was set to the default daylight setting (56k) with no incremental changes. What is yours set to?

yeah, i was just going to say ..sounds like a white balance issue.
or i hope so.. my xh-a1 is coming tmrw. yay.

56k for the outdoor shot, AWB for the indoor shot, due to mixed lighting, cool white fluorescent overhead and daylight coming through the window.

Okay, we need to do an apples to apples test. Don't use AWB and certainly don't shoot a test under any kind of flourescent lights. Shoot an outdoor scene with the 56k settings and post a still and let's see how both settings look on your camera.

To be honest, I would probably develop a completely different setting for the indoor shot you are using in your test. Too much mixed lighting involved.