A1 grainy picture problem
 

I have now shot 3 tapes with the A1 and seem to have a grainy picture problem.

Items checked:
1.All gain is set to "0" all the time. I shoot outside and never use gain only ND. All gain settings in menu are also set to "0" incase I hit the switch. AGC is off.
2. Checked the picture by component to Dell 24" ultra sharp HD monitor. It shows grain when no tape is rolling so it is not the heads. The same when tape is rolling.
3. Checked in 60i, 24F, and 30F.
4. Always run in manual but checked also in auto.
5. Checked with custom presets on and off.

Had my stock footage company complain about my last set of clips (too much grain). My mistake for even sending the clips.

Talked to Canon today and they will check it out but wanted to know if anyone else had had this problem?

Purchased from B&H and will call today. Also I was ready to purchase a second A1 this week so I guess that is now happening so I can do a job this weekend.

Any thoughts on how to solve?

Post as pict so we can see what you are talking about.

Not sure how to upload pictures? I went to Manage Attachments then pick the picture from my hard drive and it fails to upload. Advice?

Interesting B&H said to go to DVinfo.net to help solve the problem.

This is a picture of a clip in 30F it only worked with .JPG not .BMP. Also aspect ratio is off but that should not matter for this.
manual focus
1 ND
max zoom
60 shutter
5.4 Iris
Gain off
Vivid custom pre set
Warm white balance (yes this is too much with vivid)
OIS off
Locked on tripod

Another in 30F same settings.

It really looks crappy.
Tell us your full settings.
Are you set on M for full manual control?
How about your custom settings?

I don't know what is set in your vivid settings, but look at the coring setings, if it is in the negative range then bring it back to 0 or + 1 or 2, and use -3db gain instead of 0db, although I really don't see alot of noise in your picture at all but a little bit in the second picture, but how come they are not in the original 16X9 format?

Douglas all the settings are above and below and it is full manual. Also when I went back to factory preset it had the same problem. The camera went back to Canon today which is too bad since I had to cancel a job this weekend. Time for a second.

manual focus
1 ND
max zoom
60 shutter
5.4 Iris
Gain off
Vivid custom pre set
Warm white balance (yes this is too much with vivid)
OIS off
Locked on tripod

I was talking about custom setting like the ones that Khoi mentions above.

Try this settings by Steven Denpsey
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...t=81071&page=6

Douglas and Khoi thanks for your feedback.

As for not in the 16x9 I am not sure what Avid Liquid did in the update. I will have to look into the setting to get frame grabs back to 16x9.

To answer your question I don't have the numbers with me since the camera has been sent back.

The vivid setting I used is the latest from Steve's of the preset forum. It has the same problem with Panalook and the factory presets. The presets are not the problem since with out a preset on it is the same grain (heat wave) problem.

Also I went back to the factory default while on with B&H and it is also the same problem.

Even while viewing with out a tape running in auto it is the same problem. Canon thought it might be the motherboard.

But I will look at the coring when it comes back I hope fixed.

Thanks Douglas that is the preset I used.

I don't see any excessive noise other than what looks like jpeg artifacts in the stills.

The second pic however is horrendously soft, like it's way out of focus. Look at the trees in the background for example. There's no detail whatsoever. It looks as if either coring is cranked to the max, and/or sharpness in a max negative value. Even if this was a diffraction issue by using ND1 instead of ND2 to open the iris more than 5.4, it still should look better than this.

Bill

Bill the trees in the back ground look like they are underwater in the video.

The whole picture has a noise/shimmer. With the camera on tripod locked inside and on standby on component to my 24" dell the whole picture has a shimmer. And this is with gain and OIS off. After going back to factory settings. This is what told Canon there was a problem.


The Coring was at 0 I found my settings.

Paul, I hope you'll update us when you get the new camera.

Yes Nelson I will update when the camera comes back or a new one arrives.

I will shoot and post a few frame grabs to compare. I hope the problem is solved and not something silly I was doing.

I think both of my ones display the same issue at the telephoto end of the lens (a sort of shimmering heat haze where the image gets unstable/'pulses' every few seconds?)

Usually on mine its only noticeable if focus is on something greater than 20 to 30 metres away while at high level of zoom (eg up close tele focusing on objects a metre away is fine)

Like yourself I tried OIS off and manual focus in case either of those were having an impact but result remained the same

I have to admit as it occured on both the units I have I didnt really think much of it (we never really use that end of the zoom range for the stuff we shoot)

If you can keep us posted be much appreciated as I might arrange a return on ours if canon agree that yours is out of spec.

stevie

Thanks for the input Steven. I am at that end of the lens all the time and need a telephoto adapter. On my Sony Z1 I used the Century Optics 1.6 all the time. I hope I don't miss that camera which I sold last week.

I will post and keep everyone up to date on the problem. UPS said it would arrive in Jamesburg NJ service center tomorrow afternoon. Canon told me 5 days max turn around time. Time will tell. I need two cameras in service and this will tell if they will be a A1's. My hope is Canon will solve the problem.

Did you hook it up straight to a HD monitor and check to make sure that it's not something funky with your Avid captured did? I have 3 A1s and use full zoom all the time and they don't look like that at all.

Hey Paul, I have a request. When you get your camera back maybe you could do some test shots on the other side of the bay in Narragansett, even the Narragansett beach. I grew up there, it was great to see some of the east coast in your shots there.

Khoi I did hook it up directly to the monitor with out going through Avid Liquid to check on the problem. Even with out the tape running it had the problem in standby.

Good news that you have two A1's and use the long end of the lens all the time with out this problem. Do you have some clips on the site at the long end of the lens?

Stefan I have a clip going on my site of Pt. Judith during the Nor'easter two weeks ago. Huge waves, big winds with cold temps. Narragansett beach lost all of its sand to the point where old structures were showing.

u know, i think its your custom settings..
mess with detal coring (jack it up) and drop your pedestal so your blacks arent so luminous

Set yoru presets right and you wont need to CC in post

Paul, I don't have clips but I upload 5 pict for you, all are at full zoom but not at infinity focus like yours though.
www.proeditproductions.com/realaudio/p1.bmp
www.proeditproductions.com/realaudio/p2.bmp
www.proeditproductions.com/realaudio/p3.bmp
www.proeditproductions.com/realaudio/p4.bmp
www.proeditproductions.com/realaudio/p5.bmp
they are full bmp so they are large.

Thanks Peter when the camera is back I will look at your options.

Khoi those are very helpful to show me I camera was off by a lot. Thank you.

I ordered a second A1 today so I can see the difference and that was my plan after selling my Z1. If it does not have the problem great. If something is wrong then it can go back. But I expect clear crisp picture at full zoom like your shots Khoi.

New camera should arrive tomorrow or Monday.

hey paul, ur a lucky boy and i hope the investment pays off for you.
I too had a couple of z1's and sold them off not for the a1's but becuase the z1 couldnt deliver what " I " needed.
THe A1, being similar in design to DSLR's through menu structure as well as offering the tweakbility of a DVX on steroids, its the logical tape based solution to my personal dillema

one thing about custom settings is that those that are new to the feature dont knwow hat each option may mean or imply. They dont understand what impact it may have on teh image. With this in mind, i usually say to people to check out the OTHER CAMERA's (H1, HVX/DVX/JVC250 etc) which DO have thse features and see what image results THEY get using particular settings.
With that info, u go out for a day and really mess with the camera as some of the OTHER camera's might have similar settings to THIS one.. (such pedestal, gamma curves, colour saturation etc etc

And the fact that there is no harm in trying, u might even surprise yourself with the results.

wibble wobble...
 

heres a 25 second test clip of the problem I find on our A1s At full zoom the image gets really unstable like a heat haze

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NZ5KWX2Y

Thanks Peter I try and learn every day with the camera. The first three tapes where just going out and playing with all the settings while keeping notes. Then going back to the studio and putting the Z1 on one monitor and the A1 on the other monitor and redo the same setting in the studio, also at times the HV-20.

I think some comments could be due to the warm (blue card) balance I was trying in the shots I put in the forum. Attached is the same session with proper white balance. All part of the experiment. One is Panalook and two are vivid thanks to Steve.

Pictures coming the upload fails when I try and use .BMP so I have to change to .JPG not sure why this happens.

Looks like it might have something to do with the is, do you have it on? it should be off when it is on the tripod, the leafs moving could trick it and thought that it is movement and it might try to compensate for it.

hi Khoi

OIS is off (it was my first suspect) and manual focus enabled (instant AF was my second suspect)

I left everything else on default settings for that particular clip

The clip is more of a general example eg I hit exactly same problems regardless of tweaks, custom settings or whether theres any moving objects/leaves etc in the frame

stevie

Steve the link sends me to Helium to join. How do I see you clip?

That is weird, are you sure you don't have any heat source in between your camera and that bus stop? like over a car or something like that?

Sounds just like what I am seeing on my clips. I am going to down load a clip in a few minutes.

I had to down convert to SD and keep it short so it would download. But you sure can see the problem and it sounds just like what Khoi is seeing.

Paul, thats weird, whenever i click the link i posted it sends me to mega uploads where i get a web page as per screengrab below

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d8...101/megaup.jpg

then its just a case of entering whichever 3 letter code its asking for near top right of that page and waiting 45 seconds or so before download is allowed to proceed

Khoi, the road outside is actually pretty low on traffic for once (the clip i posted was when no traffic was passing by), no cars parked below the building, rumbling past or stuck in taffic belching fumes, its quite sunny outside but i wouldnt term it all that warm

When we first noticed it initially a few weeks or so ago the weather was a lot cooler still and I got a mate to duplicate it shooting a field that backs directly onto his house which is in a fairly isolated area.

Id post a different viewpoint, but where I'm shooting from today I'd have a tree or a building run smack into the frame if I repositioned the camera (the view thru to that bus stop is thanks to a gap in an otherwise built up street opposite me)

Steve that is the same problem I was seeing with the A1 camera I sent back. At full zoom it is bad but I still noticed it at full wide just not nearly as severe. Look at my clip and you will see the same thing.

Steve I just received an e-mail from Canon Service Center stating there is a problem with my A1. They are going to repair and send back within 7 days.

thats good news Paul (well not really but better than them telling you theres nothing wrong hehe) I'll see about getting something sorted out regarding our two

I'd be interested to see a small clip of the after repair once you have it back

Stevie

I get the same heat wave like imaging at long distance, mid to extreme zoom...I wonder out loud how much of this is simply HDV and high def in general showing thermal currents.
Gonna watch this thread closely.

I just thought i`d jump in to say hey to a fellow Rhode Islander. I`m thinking to get an A1 very soon as well, and had a nightmare last night about something kind of similar to this problem... more looking like Steves video....eek!

Steve I will go to the same location at the same time of day and do a test. With the new camera early in the week and the repaired camera when it arrives. I am ready now but will post a clip the same day. Was the size of the clip big enough to see the problem?

Steve this was the e-mail from Canon:

Dear PAUL :
"We have received your equipment for evaluation and repair. Based on our initial examination, we will start the necessary repairs at no charge to you. You can expect the repair to be completed and returned back to you within approximately 7 business days* from the date shown above. There is no need to respond to this notice."

James this is not do to being HDV. My sony Z1 was sharp at the same zoom and the water was 45 degrees and the air 50 degrees so it is not heat. Also I shot the HV-20 along side with crisp results.

Nathan I would go for the A1 and not worry. If you have a problem in the first week (when you should shoot a lot of footage) then you can send it back. But I think what Steve and I are seeing is rare.

Paul,

As mentioned above in my previous post....I've seen the same thing with my XHA1 so....

When I get a chance I will post a quick video of the same anomally...

I was shooting a distant rockface off Georgian Bay Ontario...currently 35 degrees farenheit. It was a sunny day with a rocky beach between me and the face and I had a forground rock I was using for a depth of field interest point.

My suggestion that it may be thermal related is actually what I HOPE is wrong with the shot. If it's the camera then I have a bigger problem. If i remember correctly in your shot you were showing a boat at a fair distance with a grassy field between you and the water.....what about the heat from that field on a sunny day? I'm no physic major but I thought that thermal shifts from one extreme (ie: the water) to another (sunlit field/rock beach) could just as readily cause this phenomenon.

I'm certainly not saying your incorrect however. Canon service on your part seems to consider there being some sort of problem. So my consideration is....what is the final outcome and reason behind the problem....hence the ....I will watch this thread closely comment. I don't want to consider there being a problem with my cam but if there is a reasonable explanation then I had better get mine sent away for service too.

All the best and hope things go well for you.