Motor sound?
 

Hi!
Just received my new A1. One thought I have is I clearly hear the motor sounding (electronic quite high-freq whining). Is that normal? I thought this type of camera would be totally silent, but maybe I have too high demands. And my thinking goes, "as long I can hear it in the room, the mic will too" (if not placed very far away). Wish I had a couple of other cameras to compare with.

Zoom drive is picked up in silent conditions
 

That is an issue if shooting in near silence and fortunatly I am never doing that but I did test removal with audition and once I isolated the frequency I was able to clear it out.
I am using a very expensive external shotgun and the hum is definitly there.
I did not notice it using the build in mic but I assume that picks up enough ambient sound that you would not notice the hum.

Also July 2nd the new Adobe Soundbooth CS3 comes out. There is a free beta at http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/soundbooth/ . It has some great new features, like the ability to create a noiseprint from a blank area of ambient noise and remove it from the whole of your track. Another great one is the ability to visually see the entire sound spectrum, go in and isolate sounds from the spectrum and heal them automatically, just like photoshop can do with the heal brush on images. It is quite amazing. I was actually able to take a ringing telephone out of the background and maintain the dialog that was happening. You couldn't tell.

Other A1 owners? Do your camera motors sound?

Not intrusively for what I shoot.

A couple things folks do to make it sound worse than it really is:
1. Over tighten the mic clamp (resutls in more couupling to the mic)
2. Use a very hot mic in MIC setting with AGC
3. Position the mic so the motors re in a high sensitivity sid lob

"3. Position the mic so the motors re in a high sensitivity sid lob"... ?????????

Re: SoundBooth
 

First comment on this outstanding site. I'm learning a great deal from all here, and I appreciate the depth and quality of content. Thanks to all.

For those that don't know, the current version of Adobe Audition, included with Production Studio Pro, features what seems to be this exact feature in the upcoming SoundBooth. I was glad to see SoundBooth keep that capability.

I've used it very effectively to isolate and eliminate specific frequencies in old historical oral history interview recordings and to restore old recordings digitized from 78 speed records.

If SoundBooth did not have that spectral analysis capability, I would keep Audition around specifically for it. Very useful and powerful tool.

Oh, and I love my new A1 and have, so far, had zero problems with it. Still LOTS to learn.

Not many answers about A1:s having no motor noise. I wonder if that means the A1's generally do have motor noise? Well, if it's because you are afraid of telling it because it could diminish your chances of getting it sold later, I understand. :)

I found some german links about the (possible) motor noise of the A1 and I did some free translation of them here:

1) "Negativ: Ungwöhnlich lautes Laufwerksgeräusch"
= "Negative: unusually high tape transport noise"
(http://www.testeo.de/produkt_meinung...a1-388167.html)

2a) "Ich habe gestern meine A1 bekommen und beim einschalten bemerkte ich sofort dieses pfeifende Geräusch."
= "I received my new A1 and at turning it on I immediately noticed this whining noise"

2b) "Jip, auch an meiner Kamera gibt es ein recht "hohes" Geräusch, --- Stört aber nur, wenn es extrem leise im Raum ist."
= "Yep, also at my camera there is a quite "high" noise --- disturbs only when it's extremely quite in the room though"

2c) "ich habe bei der A1 folgendes festgestellt: Ein auffällig lautes Laufwerksgeräusch, das mit den Geräuschen einer XM2 oder XL1 nicht zu verlgeichen ist. Deswegen wollte ich sie eigentlich zum Service schicken, aber ich denke, das kann ich mir nach den Beiträgen hier dann sparen."
= "Also I have noticed this: an unusual high motor noise, that cannot be compared with the noise of the XM" or XL1. Because of this I wanted to send it to service, but after these contributions I can spare me that."
(http://forum.slashcam.de/laufwerksge...tml?highlight=)

3) "Also the Canon XH A1 possesses a loud drive assembly"
(http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...t.de%2f23.html)

If someone is selling a close to knew XH-A1 cheap because of this noise, let me know immediately!

My A1 (PAL) definitely has loud motor noise compared to other camcorders in this price range. This has been the only thing I've been a bit disappointed with A1.

Haven't noticed any at all but I'll look for it next time I do a 'quiet' shoot and let you know.

Make that "...motors are in a high sensitivity side lobe" which is to say the motor noise source is located in a portion of the microphone's pattern where teh mic has higher sensitivity, not rejection.

Re: Soundbooth - A quick read gives me the impression that Soundbooth is sort of "Lite" or simplified version of Audition geared toward video, not audio professionals, Maybe a bit like more like Cool Edit was to Cool Edit Pro.

I compared my A1 today with a Sony Z1-E, and the Sony was totally silent. The A1 was even louder than a Panasonic 3CCD amateur camera I compared with. I admit it's quieter than my little Sony Dig.8 though :). I could be that I have recieved a 'monday' A1, but since several people already complain, I'm trying to get used to the thought of accepting it.

Anybody tried those "camera noise" standard filters? I've been using a lot of other filters before, but my conclusion always is "sh. in sh. out"

Found this thread about filtering motor noise if anybody's interested.

This is interesting information. I have been considering purchasing an XH-A1. Motor noise would be an issue for me. I currently have a Canon GL-1 and a Sony PDX10. The Sony is extremely silent, but the Canon GL-1 is very noisy. Filming in a quiet church, you can hear the Canon from up to 10 feet away, and the microphone definitely picks up the sound. I have to use external mics and keep them 10' or further away from the Canon camera. The noise is not consistant; sometimes it is louder than other times.

Hey Don,
In CS3 Audition is Soundbooth. For whatever reason they changed the name for the release of the new suite of tools. But they did add a lot of features that will be helpful for video. To Doyle's point I din't realize that you could also do some of the isolation in the current Audtion, but that is great. If you want to see the additional features of Soundbooth (Or Adition 3 as you could call it) Adobe has a cool little Flash feature demonstration here http://www.adobe.com/products/soundbooth/ check out the feature tour tab.
Jeff

Compare at: http://www.adobe.com/products/soundbooth/compare/

Looks like Adobe sees it as two separate products, at least for now.
Stand-alone full Audition 2.0 is $349, Soundbooth CS3 is $199.

First I interpreted it as you were angry, but now I guess you want that cheap camera? :)

I must admit it's a little bit noisier than my GS400 but I have to put my ear up against the case to pick it.

I don't see it being an issue (if at all) with anything other than the onboard mic in low ambient noise situations.

I mostly use a wireless mic so it's not something I've come up against.

Yes, I'm about to buy an XH-A1. If I can get one very inexpensively, I'll take it... noisy motor and all!

Regarding Soundbooth and Audition... they seem to be two separate products now. Here is a link that compares the two:
http://www.adobe.com/products/soundbooth/compare/

Soundbooth is task oriented for working on video audio. Audition continues to be a full featured mult-track recording and editing application, with vst plug-in support, etc. etc. etc.

It's not totally clear, but it seems that if you are doing complex multi-track soundtrack creation and editing for your video, audition is still the product to use.

Interesting. Thanks! I wonder why Adobe has taken Audition out of the Master and production suites? I hope they have not killed it then. It is a great product for audio engineers.The Master suite is supposed to contain all of their products. Hmmm...

It seems that Soundbooth will let people do easily, with a very small learning curbed, the tasks associated with audio for Video. Note that SoundBooth only has one track editing.

Audition will do all the same things, plus everything else.

I believe soundbooth will be point and click. Audition will continue as a standalone professional audio editing and multitrack recording application.

A lot of people who bought the video collection and have Audition don't use it because it is too daunting. Soundbooth does the specific tasks most people need. Audition is still available as a standalone for those who want it's capabilities.

Also disappointed!
 

My A1 is so loud man! I even took the first one i got back to the store and swapped it, but the new one is just the same...!! I'm also just trying to get over it and work around it...!
It's definitely made me like the A1 less... I thought a camera in this range shouldn't have a problem like that!? Other than that it's great though!

Maybe it's just the PAL ones that are loud for some reason?

Thanks for sharing this. I'm still thinking of replacing or repairing, but the chances of improving it seem smaller and smaller... I do fiction films and interviews, where I want maximum control over sounds. Let's hope it won't be noticed in the end. I suppose it's better than having a bad audio circuit in the camera, like in the PD150.

This could be the reason, because if all units were as loud as mine, there would be more complaining about motor noise. Maybe it's not all PAL A1 that have motor noise issue though.. On the other hand, I'm sure that every one has their own "how much noise is bad" -level. I'm doing sound post production for my living, so maybe I'm little too sensitive for motor noises ;)

I've used Peak's Soundsoap Pro and Waves RenEQ to remove A1's whining noise (with Digital Performer). It's possible to get rid of it, but of course removing some frequencies from audio always makes it a bit worse than original.

As bad as the problem is, it's good to know that i'm not the only one with it. I thought i had just gotten a dud unit!
I also do mostly interviews so the zoom noise is really a problem! i Have a Rode NTG-1 that is mounted on camera and it picks up the noise even more than the camera's mic. I did some interviews last night for a promo DVD and i used a Sure SM 58 hand held mic which did the trick because it was far from the camera, but it would've been nice to not have to do that.

I have Adobe Audition so i will try out some of the post solutions in there...but there is just no replacement for good sound on the day!

Found any specific frequency to notch away?

Keep in mind that an on-camera mic is OK for ambient sound, sound where quality is a secondary consideration, and for Joe and Jane Sixpack's handi-cam put-me-to sleep videos of their boring vacations. It is a poor choice for any point source that is more than a couple feet from the camcorder (e.g., a person speaking), or for low volume sources.

In most cases and with all of the camcorders (including Canon) I've used, if the gain is cranked up to the point where motor noise is an issue with the on-camera mic, the shooter is using the wrong techniques to capture sound.

BTW: Using headphones has a way of emphasizing the noise floor thanks to tight coupling to the ear and the excluding much of the ambient sound in the listening environment.

For my whining noise I have used -6dB at 5300 Hz. You must set very narrow Q (0.7 in RenEQ), otherwise you'll ruin sound totally. 5kHz is very important frequency e.g. for consonants. Of course A1's noise has lot wider frequency, but it's impossible to remove all extra noise by EQ only. That's why I've been using also Soundsoap Pro. Remember, that those settings may not work with other EQ at all (maybe only with Waves RenEQ with my A1's sound;)

Don, I'm not using onboard mic. Problem is there also with shotgun mics. Of course it's always bad move to use camcorder mount mics, but what I was saying, my A1 is noisier than other camcorders in this price range. But I'm sure all A1s aren't this loud.

To clarify, my comment refers to on-camera, which would include the built-in mic, and any mic attached to the camcorder, i.e., in the holder or on the shoe, shotgun or otherwise. It would not apply to the receiver part of a wireless mic system.

Thanks for you wise words, Don, all advice are welcome.
I'm also not talking first hand about on-board mics here, I don't use them that often. The problem is the noise is in the room where the camera is. For example, I did a short a couple of years ago that had 75% of the scenes in a car with two people sitting 2 feet from the camera. How would you mic that without having the camera noise? Seems impossible to me, because the noise will bounce around in the car and be part of the ambient sound. But that's an extreme example.

Thanks for the frequency, Poppe, I did a quick test and I had better results with a Q of 1,5 but I suppose it will vary according to the program.

Also called my local repairman, he said (this is how I remembered it) the noise could be from the drum/head hitting the tape 4000 times per minute, and at some cameras this noise is worse in the beginning of the camera's life. So we'll have to film like lunatics to wear the parts down in there...

Sorry for my misunderstanding. My finnglish isn't the best yet :)

No problem. I understand Finnglish (USA style) and have been known to speak a bit myself.

I just read this thread carefully.

I DEFINITELY have SERIOUS zoom-motor noise that is picked
up on my Sennheiser ME 66. It doesn't matter whether it's quiet
or loud in the ambient, and it makes no difference having AGC off.

I have tried loosening/tightening the mount holding the mic with no change.
I have moved the position of the mic around, no change.

My kids DV camera (Sony), using the same microphone,
has zero-none-nada zoom-motor sound.
Actually I have never had this problem on the other three DV camera's I've owned.

I love this camera. This is not whining.
But it is inexcusable to have this much noise transmitted to a microphone
on ANY camera much less on a high-end beautifully-done camera like this one.

I am totally open to being wrong about this and would love to hear what
else I can try to solve what, for me, is a critical flaw in this camera.

I know I can probably clean it up with software in post.
But that is a weak solution.


David

Do you use a rubber suspension or the mount on the camera?

I am using the mic holder supplied with the camera.
A rubber suspension set-up would probably be better (haven't
tried it), granted,
there is precious little space around camera to get to the controls
using the supplied mic holder as it is. With a bulkier suspension set up
it will be really crowded around the controls.
But that might be the best solution.

Thank you.

David

If you hold the shotgun next to the camera pointing in the shooting direction and listen with headphones you should be able to find how far away the mic needs to go, if the problem is acoustic. I suppose there are always solutions with specially-built longer holders if needed. (you could even have a Z-shaped extendable arrangement built from a desk lamp holder...)
If the problem is internal vibrations I really think a supension should do it.

Don't know if this will help you:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...ght=suspension
http://www.samys.com/product_detail.php?item=9026
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/8...hoe_Clips.html
There's probably a lot more said abot this here if you search on "suspension" either in this forum or the whole site.

Hi Urban,

I am going to try one of the shockmounts you gave me the tip on
(one of the low cost ones from the B&H url).

Thanks, I guess it's the only way to solve it.

David

I can't hear any zoom motor noise on my XH-A1 at all.