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-   -   XL2 pricing (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xl-gl-series-dv-camcorders/28881-xl2-pricing.html)

Chosei Funahara July 13th, 2004 11:40 AM

XL2 pricing
 
XL2 body: $4,999.00

lenses:

20zoom XL5.4-108mmL IS
200,000yen=2,300.00U$
size: 97.5157.4mm(without hood)
weight: 960g(body only)
5.4-108mm 35mm (film convert)
42.2-844mm(16:9)51.8-1036mm(4:3)F1.6-3.5

3zoom XL3.4-10.2mm
170,000yen=2,000.00U$
size:91.5116mm(without hood)
weight:670g(body only)
focal length: 3.4-10.2mm 35mm(film convert)
26.6-79.8mm(16:9)32.6-97.8mm(4:3)

16zoom XL5.4-86.4mm
280,000yen=3,100.00U$
size:81158mm(without hood)
weight: 920g(body only)
focal length:5.4-86.4mm 35mm(film convert)
42.2-675.2mm(16:9)51.8-828.8mm(4:3)F1.6

Rob Lohman July 13th, 2004 11:48 AM

Thank you, but this information was already up on the site,
including all the pricing information. I think the only thing missing
was the weight of the new 20x lens.

Chosei Funahara July 13th, 2004 12:42 PM

Rob,

street price:
Chris says 3,999U$ just a body; lense are below 2,000.00U$.
Correct?

Rob Lohman July 13th, 2004 12:50 PM

That is what it says on this page:

http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxl2/xl2skinny.php

indeed. Now keep in mind that prices of individual components
are usually higher then when you buy them bundled as seems
to be the case here.

Peter Moore July 13th, 2004 12:53 PM

$2000 for a lens?? Yipes! Still lenses are higher resolution and a fraction of that. I don't get it. (Sorry never looked seriously at XL lens prices before because I always looked at fixed lens cameras). Are these lenses just incredibly fast?

Rob Lohman July 13th, 2004 01:08 PM

A video lens (in this case) needs to have:

1) servo motors to control zoom / focus

2) have builtin ND filters

3) have a highly complex optical stabilizer

4) in this particular 20x lens it also has some sort of memory function (store zoom / focus position)

5) a video lens has a special function to keep focus while you zoom (when possible) that a still lens does not have (it might, but it isn't engineered for this)

Most still lenses do not include such things. There are probably
even more things different. But this is what I could think of.

Luis Caffesse July 13th, 2004 01:17 PM

"$2000 for a lens?? Yipes!"

I've actually always been surprised as to how cheap Canon's lenses are.

I'm a bit dissapointed that the only new lens they announced is the 20x lens. What's stopping them from putting out more lenses? They definitely have a unique product in that it is the
only 1/3" camera with a removable lens. I've never felt like they
have ever fully exploited that fact.

Why not more lenses, of varying quality and pricepoints?
How about a set of primes?
Or a 'real' wide angle lens?

It would be nice for people who wouldn't mind spending the needed amount of money for quality glass.

-Luis

Kevin Lepp July 13th, 2004 01:31 PM

20x lens comes with camera for $4,999
 
If you look at the button "whats in the box" on the page for the XL2 on the Canon website, you'll see whats included with the XL2 kit which is what they are selling for $4,999.

Its a nice little kit. I cant wait to get my hands on that camera!

Chosei Funahara July 13th, 2004 01:32 PM

There are 3 lenses.
http://cweb.canon.jp/dv/lineup/xl2kit/index.html
http://cweb.canon.jp/dv/lineup/xl2kit/point.html#point01

http://cweb.canon.jp/dv/lineup/xl2kit/images/option_item03.jpg
http://cweb.canon.jp/dv/lineup/xl2kit/images/option_item02.jpg
http://cweb.canon.jp/dv/lineup/xl2kit/images/option_item01.jpg

Rob Lohman July 13th, 2004 01:35 PM

The others are optional models Chosei. The camera comes with
the new 20x serve optical stabilized lens per default.

Chosei Funahara July 13th, 2004 02:01 PM

Rob,

I got it, thanks.

Ken Tanaka July 13th, 2004 03:06 PM

Indeed, $2,000 seems like a pretty good bargain if the lens' performance is pretty good. A Canon 20x lens for the 1/2" world costs multiples of this.

Jim Giberti July 13th, 2004 04:23 PM

<<I can't speak for Europe or anywhere else in the world, but within the U.S. market, the official word from Canon USA is August 2004 for the XL2 kit, complete with body and lens. The MSRP for the kit is $4999,.........There will be the option to purchase the body kit without the lens for $3999.>>

This is a snip from Chris' (amazingly fast) watchdog overview. Here's my question if it's at all possible to answer. Will Canon be making the body only option available immediately for everyone who already has the lenses, B&W VFs and all the extras and want to integraste this sytem now. I'd hope that they wouldn't put out only XL2 kits at first...that would be really not good.

Ken Tanaka July 13th, 2004 04:30 PM

Jim,
Purely speculation, but I suspect the torso-only kits will be available early. They were when the XL1S was introduced.

Jim Giberti July 13th, 2004 04:37 PM

<<Jim,
Purely speculation, but I suspect the torso-only kits will be available early. They were when the XL1S was introduced.>>

I agree Ken, it had just occured to me, as I was planning all the shoots I was going to put off till late August, that I might not be be able to get a first off the plane model if they were shipping in kits. I'm pretty psyched to do a first Mini 35 test at 24p, 16:9.

Aaron Koolen July 13th, 2004 04:46 PM

Well seeing as Canon mention they think the camera will be popular for the indy filmmaking market too, they'll need a new lens cause I'd imagine the standard one, not having multiple focus pull ability is silly. That or the fancy new SDK will allow us to control that from a laptop or even better, a PDA. That would be excellent.

Aaron

Jean-Philippe Archibald July 13th, 2004 05:26 PM

Is there information available on the price of the color viewfinder for those who already own some XL lenses and who would like to buy the body only and the viewfinder?

Jeff Donald July 13th, 2004 05:31 PM

Body only is $3999 USD, no lens.

Jean-Philippe Archibald July 13th, 2004 05:34 PM

Jeff, are you saying that there is only the lens missing on the body kit? the viewfinder is included?

Jeff Donald July 13th, 2004 05:42 PM

Yes, only the lens is missing is my understanding. The old viewfinders (with the exception of the B&W finder) are not compatible.

Jean-Philippe Archibald July 13th, 2004 05:55 PM

Thanks for clarifying this point Jeff!

Kent Metschan July 13th, 2004 06:41 PM

I was very excited about reading the details of this camera until the price hit. $5,000!!! There's a big difference between 4k and 5k if you ask me. Most of the talk today has been about it finally edging out the dvx100a. They matched the 24p, xlr inputs, and beat them on the interchangeable lenses and native 16x9. Sure it's better, but I'd hope so since it's gonig to cost $1,500 (42%) more.

After 3 years I was really expeting to get more camera for the money. Not more camera for more money.

With the used XL1s market at about $2,500 it alsmost sounds better to just buy 2 of those. Who am I kidding, I'll buy the new one and now get to brag that I own a $5,000 camera.

Jean-Philippe Archibald July 13th, 2004 06:44 PM

The street price should be a little bit lower when the camera will appear on the stores.

Dan Euritt July 14th, 2004 01:50 PM

$2k for a nice lense that has killer image stabilization seems favorable, but when you plug it in onto the camera, it's suddenly not worth the money because of the backfocus issues that this camera line is well-known for.

i have the l1, l2, xl1, and xl1s... the xl1 has been serviced by canon in irvine, but i've never had the same clean focus repeatability that you get with a manual lens... for $2k, they should have given us a manual backfocus adjustment on the lens itself.

i've shot with a jvc gy-dv500 camera, even with the el cheapo packaged lens, it puts out a better picture than the xl1s... and they want $5k for the xl2? please.

the other issue is the "fireflys" that show up when shooting at night... that may be inherent to the image stabilization(??), but paying $2k for lousy backfocus and fireflys is a bit much to ask.

due to the type of outdoor sports work i do, i suppose i'd have to step up to the xl2 if i needed another camera, nothing else quite fits for what i do, but right now i'm fed up with canon.

Jeff Donald July 14th, 2004 01:59 PM

The "fireflies" are indeed a byproduct of the optical IS. I've owned both the XL1 and XL1s and back focus has not been an issue for me and the vast majority of users. Yes, I understand that doesn't help your situation where you've probably experienced considerable frustration with back focus issues. I think it is the price you pay for having removable AF lenses with IS in this price range. Canon still has a 16x manual lens in the product line and the 14x is available on the used market quite frequently.

Dan Euritt July 14th, 2004 02:36 PM

jeff, the xl1/xl1s backfocus problem has been well documented, it's even discussed on this site: http://www.dvinfo.net/canon/articles/article30.php

your casual dismissal of the scope of this problem is totally at odds with hundreds of posts on both the usenet and on websites... i would suggest that you do a search on google/google groups for "xl1 backfocus".

on top of that, show me any other prosumer camera, outside of canon, that has that volume of complaints regarding backfocus... there are none.

i think that the root cause of the problem is the removeable lense... this is what, the fifth-generation camera that canon has done, but they continue to not provide us with a method of adjusting the backfocus.

"price that you pay" isn't a valid excuse... for instance, why can't i update the xl2 operating system via firewire? you can update the canon still cameras that way... even the $900 digital slr base model has that capability.

once you can update the camera o.s., you can adjust the backfocus via software, if we are to believe that is indeed possible... isn't that what the factory service center claims that it does? i'd like to know the details on that.

Jean-Philippe Archibald July 14th, 2004 02:46 PM

I am not an expert on this, but on the 14 manual lens, adjusting the backfocus means to change to position of the rear glass of the lens. I am pretty sure that it is the same thing that Canon does when you send an auto lens for a backfocus adjustement. You can't do that via sowtware, in fact, it is not related to the camera, but to the lens. That is why other prosummers camcorders doesn't have this problem (they have fixed lens).

A very small amount of user have back focus problem with the auto lens. You only see them on newsgroup. People without problems don't post to say "Hey, just want to tell you that the backfocus of my lens is well adjusted".

Jeff Donald July 14th, 2004 02:52 PM

Quote:

your casual dismissal of the scope of this problem is totally at odds with hundreds of posts on both the usenet and on websites...
Hundreds of posts and tens of thousands of units sold, probably hundreds of thousands worldwide. Seems like a problem, but not the proportions you make it out to be. A few hundred out of a hundred thousand (?) is a pretty small percentage.

Quote:

on top of that, show me any other prosumer camera, outside of canon, that has that volume of complaints regarding back-focus... there are none.
Show me another prosumer camera that has interchangeable lenses...there are none.

Quote:

but they continue to not provide us with a method of adjusting the backfocus.
As I stated, back focus adjustments are available on the manual lenses.

Quote:

price that you pay" isn't a valid excuse... for instance, why can't i update the xl2 operating system via firewire? you can update the canon still cameras that way... even the $900 digital slr base model has that capability.
Firmware updates are done not via FireWire (base unit your refer does not even have FireWire) but via files copied to compact flash cards. The firmware updates are to fix specific issues with specific models. They never contain new features, nor add new capabilities. The Canon 10D had a back focus issue for some users (again mine does not) and Canon gladly adjusted any bodies and lenses sent for adjustment.

I do not have any specific details regarding the methods Canon uses to adjust back focus.

Dan Euritt July 14th, 2004 03:36 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jean-Philippe Archibald : People without problems don't post to say "Hey, just want to tell you that the backfocus of my lens is well adjusted". -->>>

but how many people are having backfocus problems, that don't complain on the internet? we can't accurately quantify the size of the problem, but when there are hundreds of complaints, you can be sure that it's a major issue.

the point remains that canon still has not provided us with a way to adjust the backfocus.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Donald : Show me another prosumer camera that has interchangeable lenses...there are none.-->>>

show me how much extra $$$ i'm already paying for an interchangeable lense system that won't allow the most basic backfocus adjustment.

i guess that i'll have to re-phrase my point about the update: my $87 xdrive pro has an updateable o.s. via the usb port... my little panasonic video camera is updateable the same way... are you guys claiming that software updates can't happen via the firewire port?

i do agree that it could be a moot point wrt to the backfocus issue, tho... that has to be a physical adjustment, but have you seen the minolta dimage? the image stabilization isn't done by the lense, it happens at the ccd pickup itself, which is mounted in a gyro... how about an xl2 backfocus adjustment there, if it can't happen in the lense itself? anything!

i have two xl's with the same backfocus problem... it's no coincidence, and it's not a fluke, and the issue hasn't been addressed with the xl2.

Jean-Philippe Archibald July 14th, 2004 04:20 PM

It has been adressed by Canon in 1998 with the release of the great Canon 14x manual lens.

A. J. deLange July 15th, 2004 02:34 PM

I think there may be confusion between two types of "back focus". If I go to the Nikon D1 site back focus is discussed at length. In this context it refers to the tendency of the autofocus algorithms to focus the lens somewhat behind the subject. This is indeed repairable by tweaking the autofocus algorithm. In the context of this site back focus refers to setting the focus at the rear of the lens i.e. making sure that the image plane is coincident with the surface of the CCD's. That's a physical adjustment. Either you have to move the rear element of the lens (which, as has been pointed out, is what you do with the adjustment on the 16x manual) or the position of the CCD assembly. Clearly neither can be done through firmware (unless the CCD's are servoed which I doubt).

A.J.

Kevin Lepp July 15th, 2004 03:43 PM

Someone please explain to me what Back Focus is. Im new to all of this and am not clear what this is. What does it do?

thanks,

Chris Hurd July 15th, 2004 05:40 PM

<< i have two xl's with the same backfocus problem... it's no coincidence, and it's not a fluke, and the issue hasn't been addressed with the xl2. >>

You simply cannot make this sweeping assumption with any validity whatsoever. Only when you get your hands on the lens itself and use it, then you can empirically assess its performance. Let those who have handled the camera report what they've found regarding the focus on the 20x lens.

Also, it has a focus preset function which lets you repeatedly return to a predetermined focal plane. It is tack-sharp and holds critical focus beautifully throughout the entire zoom range and back again. I would like to hear from others who have played with it and can back me up on this.

It's not the same lens; it's completely re-engineered from before. You don't know how good or bad this new lens is until you've actually tried it, and that's a fact.

If you must have a backfocus adjustment, then just buy the 16x manual lens which has it, and you're all set. Hope this helps,

Dan Euritt July 18th, 2004 10:47 AM

a focus preset function won't overcome a backfocus problem.

and removeable pro lense systems have a backfocus adjustment for a reason.

if i could use a non-stabilized lense for the work i do, it wouldn't be with an xl-series camera.

Chris Hurd July 18th, 2004 01:35 PM

<< a focus preset function won't overcome a backfocus problem. >>

I mentioned the focus preset function in an attempt to get you to understand that this is an entirely new lens. You won't know if there's a backfocus problem or not until you try it for yourself. But I doubt that'll happen at this point.

<< if i could use a non-stabilized lense for the work i do, it wouldn't be with an xl-series camera. >>

In that case I hope you'll find some of our other camera forums useful to you. If there's a particular model or price range we don't cover that you'd like to discuss, please let me know as I'd like to accomodate everyone who visits here.

If one certain camcorder or manufacturer isn't right for you, then I'd like to recommend our other areas of this site. My goal is to offer one-stop research and discussion no matter what you're looking for. We have a broad range of message boards here. Hope this helps,

Sunny Dhinsey July 19th, 2004 04:32 AM

I don't know if this has been covered already (sorry if it has).

H Preston Video Retail (UK) says that the UK retail price for the PAL Canon XL2 is to be around 4,300 for the basic 20x Lens/Body package.

I guess my XL1s will do fine for now!

Chris Hurd July 19th, 2004 09:44 AM

Thanks for bringing us back on topic, Sunny! What a relief,

Ed Smith July 19th, 2004 11:36 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Sunny Dhinsey : I don't know if this has been covered already (sorry if it has).

H Preston Video Retail (UK) says that the UK retail price for the PAL Canon XL2 is to be around 4,300 for the basic 20x Lens/Body package.

I guess my XL1s will do fine for now! -->>>

Same for me I guess I'll have to wait for the price to drop and dream about it in the mean time. If I remember rightly when the XL1 came out it was over 3000!!! I do hope that the price drops...

Sunny Dhinsey July 19th, 2004 01:05 PM

No problem Chris, I wondered if I had clicked into the right thread before posting!

Kalunga Lima July 21st, 2004 09:43 AM

PAL Prices in Europe
 
Prices in Europe for PAL video equipment can sometimes be as high as 40% more than for similar NTSC gear in the USA becuase of taxes etc, but then we have free healthcare. One option is to buy PAL gear in NYC such as at B&H. After 911, because of VISA restrictions, I've found Singapore to be a good alternative for Europeans. I've had excellent service from www.expandore.com and would suspect that they will have the XL2 as soon as it is available.


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