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-   -   24p questions (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xl-gl-series-dv-camcorders/34265-24p-questions.html)

Jeremy Harrington December 1st, 2005 12:33 PM

Strange Jagged Edges
 
I just bought a brand new XL2. After playing around with it for the last week or so, I notice that things seem to have Jagged edges, esepcially in 24P/16:9.

I can focus fine and when I focus up, i can see Jagged edges on some of the things in the shot. Is there soemthing im not doing, or is this some sort of defect.

Ash Greyson December 1st, 2005 03:16 PM

Post a pic or video and we can tell you exactly what is going on. The limitation, not only of DV, but all digital video is that the sharpness can create jagged edges, particularly on a backlit subject. There are a number of ways to overcome this, you can adjust the coring, the vertical detail, etc. etc. etc.


ash =o)

Jeremy Harrington December 2nd, 2005 07:08 PM

i understand
 
I will upload a picture with what I am talking about. Some objects in the shot seem to have jagged cuts take out of the sides/edges. Sometimes outside when shooting there will be white streams across buildings/houses. Ill upload a picture to better describe

Eric Brown December 2nd, 2005 08:32 PM

I'm assuming this is a "moire" issue but as the other poster said, guess the pictures will tell.
If it is this, I had the same issue which turned out to be a non-issue after some adjusting and viewing of the footage on a proper monitor.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...931#post292931

Jeremy Harrington December 3rd, 2005 05:28 PM

pictures
 
http://www.putfile.com/jerma985

there are 2 pictures there. The first one looks ok there, but in the premiere timeline it did not look like that. It's more evident in the second photo. I was trying to show how the divets in the walls have a flicker. in any brick or wall with indents, i get this brain numbing flicker in the divets where there are no bricks.

Also, I have extreme amounts of noise in my footage. Almost like I have a bad TV signal when watching my stuff back. I have tried adjusting the coring, sharpness, everything. I just cant seem to avoid having my stuff look like a "bad TV signal" I would upload some raw footage but it is over 200 mb.

Keep in mind this is all with Gain at 0+db and proper white balancing.

Eric Brown December 3rd, 2005 11:23 PM

I do believe a lot of it has to do with viewing the footage on a progressive monitor vs an interalced monitor(I think I said that right, if not someone correct me... please).
My XL2 footage displays these type of artifacts as well at times when editing in either Final Cut or iMovie. It's not in the footage, it's in the playback as far as my situation goes because I don't see it at all on my JVC field monitor.
Try to hook it up to a regular TV monitor and have a look. Assuming there isn't anything REALLY wrong with your machine (let's hope not) you'll see the difference.
Anytime there are repeated patterns, i.e. grillwork. stripes on shirts, bricks, etc.. moire will exist.
Here are settings I use 90% of the time for my camera.

24p
16:9
1/48th shutter
gain - 0+
wb - tungsten
3x Canon wide angle
gamma - cine
knee - low
black - press
color matrix -cine
color gain - 6+
color phase - normal
rgb gains - normal
v detail - low
sharpness - -4
coring - 6+
set up level - -5
master pedal - -4
NR - high

With these settings I have not experienced any heavy aliasing that I'm aware of. Below is a link to some grabs I've recently posted. They are fuzzy due to just being poor screen grabs, but as you can see there is no extreme aliasing at all on the subject matter.
Do the TV thing or get a good monitor. It's more than likely your XL2 is just fine.

http://www.indiefilmer.com/nuke/modu...iewtopic&t=100

Ash Greyson December 4th, 2005 02:51 AM

I agree, watch your raw footage back thru the camera hooked to a TV and see how it looks... what was your shutter setting?


ash =o)

Jeremy Harrington December 4th, 2005 11:18 AM

shutter
 
i was in 24p, 16:9, shutter 1/48, 0 gain

Phil Rogerson December 5th, 2005 05:43 AM

similar problem solved...
 
...hey Jeremy, I posed a similar question a few days back, and had some useful advice, but none that solved my problem. I found the answer by trial and error after thinking my camera was useless! My real problem was I didn't understand enough about the Progressive format. That was compounded by the fact that FCP's Help doesn't seem to talk about 25p and field dominance settings.

Here's what my problem was: I'd set the 'field dominance' at lower as I'm working with a PAL system, but that was the problem! When working with PAL footage shot at 25p the field dominance MUST BE SET AT NONE!! At least, that's how it works for me.

I've spent countless hours reading past discussions on this forum about 'moire' effects, aliaising and anti aliasing, custom settings; and trying every conceivable permutation of the camera's custom settings. I was ready to get rid of the camera and go for HD... then I discovered the problem.

Now all the footage I shot, even with Sharpness and Vertical Resolution set to high, has almost no sign of the problems that so annoyed me. I say 'almost no sign' because there is one distant corrugated iron roof that has the slightest degree of aliasing if I look real hard. No one else will ever notice.

I really hope that solves your problem too. I'm editing in FCP, and the field dominance is in 'Sequence Settings'. Good luck. -- phil.

Greg Boston December 5th, 2005 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Rogerson
Here's what my problem was: I'd set the 'field dominance' at lower as I'm working with a PAL system, but that was the problem! When working with PAL footage shot at 25p the field dominance MUST BE SET AT NONE!! At least, that's how it works for me.

Yes, that's what progressive is. There is NO interlace. Therefore, there aren't any 'fields' just whole frames. Glad you got it figured out so you can enjoy your camera for the great camera it is.

regards,

-gb-

Jeremy Harrington December 5th, 2005 11:45 AM

ntsc
 
I am in an NTSC system with PP1.5, anyone know where to do this?

Ash Greyson December 5th, 2005 03:12 PM

In the project settings, you can choose, lower/higher/none.... choose none...



ash =o)

Ash Greyson December 5th, 2005 03:15 PM

Are you guys shooting 24PA and editing in a 24P timeline? There is MASS confusion over the different frame rates. Most the time I see problems are with people trying to do 24PA in a 60i timeline. I personally dont see any point at all in editing in a 24P timeline unless you are delivering for film out. There is much argument over it but I prefer to shoot 24P with 2:3 pulldown and edit in 60i... I never have these moire or aliasing issues...



ash =o)

Phil Rogerson December 5th, 2005 04:06 PM

25p
 
Ash -- The footage that caused me grief was PAL shot at 25p on the XL2, then captured in FCP with the 'DV PAL 48 kHz anamorphic' sequence preset.

I assumed that selecting that preset option would not require further adjustments to sequence settings, but of course I assumed incorrectly.

When I made a DVD from the FCP edited material, it showed much rippling across corrugated roofing, cladding, airconditioner grills etc, and stepping/aliasing on fence wires, hipped roof houses, and objects with sharp edges against contrasting backgrounds; the same rippling as showed on my PowerBook screen when editing (even after rendering with the canvas at full screen and playback resoultion high).

I'm not using an external monitor for shooting, and only the 15" PowerBook screen for viewing editing, but all the deformities I saw when the sequence was set to 'lower field dominance' were reproduced on the DVD.

I've yet to compress the new sequences to DVD, but am confident I'll see better results, because what I'm seeing in the Quicktime movie of the sequence is a so much better.

Jeremy Harrington December 5th, 2005 04:46 PM

still a lil confused
 
alright, so if I want to edit my 24p footage correctly in pp1.5 I should put the fields to No feilds (Progressive Scan) ?

what about the timebase? should I keep that at 29.97?

and what about the drop frame thing? I am a newbie with 24p so sorry if this is an easy question


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