XL3 will be 24x36 CMOS at DVinfo.net
DV Info Net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon HDV and DV Camera Systems > Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders

Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders
Canon XL2 / XL1S / XL1 and GL2 / XM2 / GL1 / XM1.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 5th, 2005, 09:34 AM   #1
Tourist
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, FRANCE
Posts: 4
XL3 will be 24x36 CMOS

Hi,

I'm relatively new to video, and this is my very first post, so please correct me if I say anything wrong.

I had bought some time ago a JVC consumer DV.
Having some experience in imaging, I was very disappointed of general image quality (noise, weird sharpness, color artifacts) and I also realized that video was not like photo e.g. the dof and focal "problem".
I bought the camera for fun, so this was not a very big deal. However I'm getting addicted to film making, so now I need MORE.

Then I seek the internet and meet XL2 (hello XL2), and later mini35 kit.
However mini35 is as expensive as an XL2 from what I remember, and I don't like the 'fake' way to achieve what I do not consider as an 'effect'.

There is a lot of threads on the mini35 kit to get that "photo like" picture.
Not only to have "film look", having a short dof is needed for a lot of narrative aspects, as well as having no focal multiplier can help scouting with classic SLRs.

Canon shows more and more involvement in indie film making by adding the 24p feature.
24p feature is certainly good (in fact I don't know), but first I would like to shoot a sequence as if I was holding my old EOS reflex camera (classic SLR).

As far as I did understand, dof and focal "problem" seems directly related to the size of the ccd.
It seems easier (understand : cheaper) to get higher resolution on a ccd than increasing the surface of the ccd.
This must be the same problem than CPUs : better integration -> more on a silicon plate -> cheaper

However good digital reflex sensor are as big as 24x36 at least for EOS-1DS and DCS pro. They are not ccds, but cmos.
Even with the DCS pro, Kodak, one big ccd supplier, has finally understand that they should go for bigger imagers.
And cmos is the direction to follow.
Even if Canon does not produce its ccd itself, they are producing their cmos, so they are not likely to be tied to a specific ccd supplier.
EOS-1DS is around $6000. DCS pro is around $4000.

So my questions are :
- how many of you love the long video dof in all cases ?
- how many of you would like to put *natively* their EF lenses and have exactly the same picture as with a SLR ?
- considering canon (maybe relative) involvement (understand : marketing target) in indie film making and shorts, how many of you would/will/have ask canon to increase imager size ? (but keep the number of pixels)
- what would be the additional cost for a cmos at 24x36 but in something like 1024x576 ?

Thanks,

Raphael
Raphael Dinge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 5th, 2005, 11:05 AM   #2
New Boot
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: caen france
Posts: 9
hello, i'm french, so maybe my english not very good.
I have just buy an xl2 two weeks ago.
I've heard about those things you said, the captors they put on some reflexcameras, but the problem is that thos captors are not done for VIDEO capturing. they are good to take ONE picture, but are not adapted to capture a picture stream as for video.
I've read that on one web site (when i did search for a good camcorder, but i don't know where exactly)
i think it it was easy to do, they should have already do that, with great captors on camcorders.
Benoit Lemonnier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 5th, 2005, 07:42 PM   #3
Obstreperous Rex
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: San Marcos, TX
Posts: 27,368
Images: 513
Benoit is quite correct. The Canon CMOS chips are not optimised for video -- there's no way to clear the gates fast enough for 30fps. They can manage about 6 or 8fps as it is. Great for photo but not for video.
__________________
CH

Search DV Info Net | 20 years of DVi | ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!
Chris Hurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 5th, 2005, 09:29 PM   #4
Skyonic New York
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 614
the next mini dv sonys will be cmos based...so someone figured out how to do it...the key question now is was it done to save money on production costs or does it make for a better picture at these low resolutions....
Robert Mann Z. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 5th, 2005, 11:05 PM   #5
Obstreperous Rex
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: San Marcos, TX
Posts: 27,368
Images: 513
Oh, there's no doubt it can be done, JVC's doing a CMOS camcorder. But not all CMOS chips (nor their manufacturers) are created equal.
__________________
CH

Search DV Info Net | 20 years of DVi | ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!
Chris Hurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2005, 12:03 AM   #6
Skyonic New York
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 614
Speak of the devil Chris...Sony just announced what i was talking about


First CMOS camcorder

http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/5480#au
Robert Mann Z. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2005, 03:11 AM   #7
Obstreperous Rex
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: San Marcos, TX
Posts: 27,368
Images: 513
How about that, Robert -- wish I could recall the source for the JVC CMOS camera.
__________________
CH

Search DV Info Net | 20 years of DVi | ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!
Chris Hurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2005, 07:09 AM   #8
Tourist
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, FRANCE
Posts: 4
Sony handycam seems really promising. But by its dimensions, I don't think that the cmos will be that huge. (hey ! 2.8Mpx for $1300... I would only need 414Kpx)
Now I've heard that this is far easier to achieve big chips with cmos than ccd.
So it seems that the future could lead us to full size chips !

Remember that we are marketing targets, and technology progress are made almost of strategic marketing directions and decisions.
Suppose that the ultimate goal of a prosumer were to have a camcorder with 35mm lenses (this is my own opinion, but I don't know the job so I may be incorrect), then no doubt that this will tend to that direction, sooner or later.
By the number of people going into the direction of mini35 kit (pro or home made), Canon should see that there is a problem in the market somewhere ?

Raphael
Raphael Dinge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2005, 11:02 AM   #9
New Boot
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: caen france
Posts: 9
well, of course it will be, but it goes step by step (il would be too expensive in research to make a new camcorder with all new sort of composants, it's more interesting for them to go step by step and do one enhancement by one enhencement (and sale a lot of intermediate camcorders)
i think it's not for tomorrow the camcorder with 35 mm captor, changeable processor, intern hard disk to stock internal software, with a camcorder operating system linux based, and changeable captor, expansion cards slot (to put extra input/output, or a gyroscope extend card that record the coordinates and movments of the camcorder for making cgi caracters easier in camera moving shoots, ...
that may happend a day...., you just have to wait about 100 years, so don't buy now!
Benoit Lemonnier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2005, 11:31 AM   #10
Tourist
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, FRANCE
Posts: 4
... and in the meantime 35mm in SD resolution would be just fine imho.

Full size chip in EOS-1Ds was one major step (remember EOS-1D imager size). So this does not seems unrealistic, and does not seems so far away, isn't it ?

It is a matter of priority : what would you like to see next in XL series ?

Raphael
Raphael Dinge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2005, 12:05 PM   #11
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Illinois
Posts: 888
I wonder how long before Sony puts the 24p and 16:9 on something like the PD-170? Will the Z1U have 16:9?
Bob Zimmerman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2005, 02:06 PM   #12
Barry Wan Kenobi
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 3,863
The Z1U is 16:9, yes, as is the currently-shipping FX1.

Sony seems to have no interest in 24P unless you want to spend $35,000 for an IMX camera with a 24P "option board". So I wouldn't expect to see 24P from them anytime soon. Panasonic and JVC have both announced plans to make 24P HD cameras.
Barry Green is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2005, 07:50 AM   #13
Tourist
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, FRANCE
Posts: 4
lol :
www.canon.com/feedback/proposal.html
Raphael Dinge is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY USA

Scan Computers Int. Ltd.
+44 0871-472-4747
Bolton, Lancashire UK


DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon HDV and DV Camera Systems > Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:20 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2024 The Digital Video Information Network