Why won't my Sony or JVC Play my Canon XL1 and XL2 Tapes ?!?
 

Hello Everyone :-)

I hope that persons here might have some Canon XL1 and XL2 experience and
can give me their opinion as to what might be going on.

I have the 2 above mentioned cameras and in order to conserve their useful
life between repairs, I purchased 2 MiniDV camcorders for capturing. One is
a Sony DCR-TRV8, which wasn't cheap when I purchased it and has always
performed well and has been properly maintained. The other is a JVC
GR-DVL210U, which was around $550.00 when I purchased it.

The problem is that I get video drop outs and horrible audio noise when
playing the tapes recorded on the Canon cameras.

Has anyone experienced this?

I hope that it is a problem with the playback cameras rather than a
potential problem with my Canons, as I have an important job coming up and I
doubt that I could get the Canons turned around by a repair shop in time
:-(

Thanks in advance for any guidance or feedback, it is much appreciated !

You can quickly verify that the Canon cameras are OK or not by playing back a tape in the camera that recorded it.

While it is supposed in principal to be the case that any DV recording should play back properly in any DV device this is not, as you have experienced, the actual case. Good "crossplay" capability is sort of the holy grail of the recording industry - a thing to be devoutly wished but difficult to acheive. A tape will always play back best on the machine on which it was recorded. The reason for this is that in the same machine the individual peculiarities of the tape path and the heads are identical in both record and play. In cross play if the alignment is slightly different the signal from the heads will be somewhat degraded. Digital is usually an all-or-nothing medium. Either the reproduced signal is above the threshold that the error detection and correction algorithms can deal with in which case you are not likely to notice anything or if you do it is occasional, or they are not in which case the output is garbage. What you are experiencing, while disappointing, is not atypical.

Hello AJ, and than you for the response!

I agree totally.

I get the best playback using the XL2. The Xl1 gives me near perfect playback with maybe 4 instances of video dropout and 6 instances of audio irregularities. The consumer cameras give me outrageous noise and video dropouts.

Problem is that I don't like using a camera for capturing.

I am considering a Sony DS-11 or a Panasonic AG-DV2500 as a feeder, do you think I might have better luck with those?

If so, which one do you think might be the best option??

Thanks again for the reply and thanks to all for any additional feedback !!


PS I'll be running some additional tests and will post my results!

I've used a cheap panasonic for capturing and tv playback in order to conserver my xl2. Now problems to date. i'm also glad I didn't sell my canon GL1...I keep a battery in it and use it for rewinding, tv playback and exporting the time line from Premiere.
Bruce Yarock

I'm using a Sony DCR-PC9E for capture into Premiere of footage from an XL2 with no problems to date.

Regards,

Geoff

Lots of people do use a cheaper camera for capture (e.g. the two gents who posted right after yours) and I'd take their advice as to what works and doesn't. I do use the XL2 for capture but I don't use it as a deck - just play the tape from end to end using capture software which blocks the video into 2 GB hunks onto the hard disk. I then do all viewing and editing from those files. Thus the tape goes through the camera a total of 4 times: once forward for record, once forward for playback and twice backwards for rewind. I suppose the heads would last 4 times longer if I captured from another machine but I never wear these toys out as the maker always has another, hotter machine in the queue and I'm a real sucker for these things.

I'm with A.J.

I see nothing wrong with using the XL2 as a capture device. It was built with a VCR function for a purpose -- why not use it. Unless you're playing tapes ten hours a day, seven days a week, you're not going to hurt it.

I can understand why some folks want to use cheaper camcorder as a deck, but for ocassional use such as playback during video capture, all camcorders are made for that sort of thing.

howdy
 

i am confused by this using another device [camera] to play, copy ,transfer or whatever .is it that you fear wearing out your xl2 . i do not know alot about cameras but i know machines . something wears fix it .your tranny goes in your car you repair it .i think Mr Hurd is right the xl2 looks pretty heavy duty . i don't think you can wear it out with normal use . how many here have had to overhall there xl1 .dp

Donald,
My reason for using the other cams for capture, playback etc. is-
Why put extra wear on the xl2, when I can use the cheaper cams for that mechanical stuff? Maybe I'm paranoid, but I'd rather put the hours on the cheaper cams and use the xl2 for shooting.
Bruce yarock

Hi Mr Yarock
 

i have an xl2 ,pan dvc30 and a sony dsp9 . i always try to play only the tapes made on any cam in that cam .now again i dont have alot of knowlage in this area . i am learning as i go along this board has been very helpful .a tec told me that sometimes the heads in a cam can be just ever so out of aline that the tap it shot will play perfect in that cam but not in another . i personaly have not had that problem . but as i said i try never to mix tapes and cams . my xl2 only has about 7 tapes on it now . my pan about 40 and my sony about 200 plus .buy the way my sony has rewound and played many many times .it still records and plays fine . i loned it to a freind on vacation the pictures were good .well nice to hear from you sir . thanks dp

Hmm. I have seen that kind of problem with LP. But never with SP. I believe even the manual that came with a little Handycam I used to have said that it was to be expected that LP could only be played back on the same camera. Of course I assume you were not recording in LP --I assume the XL2 does not even have LP-- so something is very wrong. Most likely some of your cameras are out of alignment.

Actually Ignacio, the XL-2 does offer LP but I think what has already been put forward is reasonable. There can be just enough difference in head alignment, actual drum speed, capstan speed, etc to cause this to happen.

I once had 2 computers that refused to communicate over a serial link. I would do a loopback at each end of the cable and both computers would test ok. But they would not talk to one another. Turns out I had a bad serial port card (think XT 8088 days). Its baud rate generator was off and so it would talk to itself just fine but not another system. Weird but true. That's the only time I've ever seen that happen. But magnetic media is notorious about this.

regards,

-gb-

I've been using a small panasonic camcorder to play back XL1 footage with no problems.All shot in SP.Reason for doing this is the XL1 is in my mind a camera not a vtr.Why add the hours on it.
I also think if you shot in SP and all equipment is adjusted properly they should play the tapes.Just out of curiousity ,what make of tape?

Hi Guys
 

Panasonic DVM63PQ mostly and sometimes DVM63MQ .please forgive me .i was not knocking anyone for using a lesser cam for play back or rewind . i was just asking why . it will take me about three years to run 200 tapes .my xl2 will just be breaking in . by than i will be looking for the xl3 or something like that . thanks dp

Hello Guys :-)

I would like to give you a couple of responses, then my test results and interim hypothesis, and finally I would like to ask a couple of followup questions at the very end... so please bear with me :-)

First and foremost, thank you one and all for the feedback !!!


"Jack Smith
Just out of curiosity ,what make of tape?"

Hello Jack,

Maxell (cheap), I originally thought this was the problem, and it may be a contributing factor, but if you read my progress, which follows, you may see it differently.


"Donald Pittelli
it will take me about three years to run 200 tapes"

Hello Donald,

My next job will consume at least 80 tapes :-o


Progress:

As I drill down into my problem I have come to a conclusion or two as to my future gear acquisitions, and I am discovering that my problem may be entirely environmental !

I didn't even run my Hi Quality Tape Tests yet because I am finding that "time-of-day" is a factor... or at least I am trying to prove that out at this time.

* First of all, the problem spans various equipment.

* The Problems do not seem to be on the actual tape (it may be, but intermittently reacting), that is, the problems do not always occur at the same place upon playback.

* It appears that at 4:00 AM my cameras all work correctly, but at 6:30 AM, I get problems where the audio just stops while the video plays without dropout (the canons actually playback fine at 6:30 AM).

* I have four 50,000 Watt transmission antennas about 150' from my location :-o

I am betting that mid-day when I run these tests, the audio noise will be present with video dropout. I hope this is the case as it will mean that my gear is not malfunctioning, but that the high concentration of radio energy may be interfering with my gears error correction capabilities.

Hey, I can always capture in the early morning hours until I relocate :-)


Follow-up Question:

I know that everyone has their favorite VTR, and you have given me some great info here, but between the Sony DS-11 and the Panasonic AG-DV2500, has anyone had problems with either of them?

I am still trying to make a decision as to which one to buy.

Thanks Again Guys :-)

Mike Rehmus is of the opinion that brand media plays nicely with the same brand hardware. If you shoot mostly Panasonic tapes, get a Panasonic deck. Sony tapes, Sony deck. I agree with his advice. Sounds odd but it works.

By the way, I'm thinking of moving this discussion to our Long Black Line forum since it's more to do with tape than the XL2. So if it gets moved, that's the reason.

Hello Chris,

Thanks for the feedback !

I am not sure what the topic is about anymore, but my continued testing will unfold the truth.

One reason that you may want to keep this thread here, is that I am in contact with Canon Tech Support and they may have some relevant information for other XL2 owners, which I will post to this thread.

Thanks Again !!

Anthony, try wrapping your cameras in aluminum foil --grounded if possible-- and repeat the tests. This should help block RFI. If it works, perhaps you can then sue the broadcaster for the expense of building a Faraday cage around your house or something like that.

Hello Ignacio,

I was considering building one around my equipment, but I'm looking for a farm and will be moving soon, so I will put off enriching any attorneys at this time....

Ooops, one of my partners is an attorney, I better be careful :-)

It seems this topic is now about RFI affecting DV equipment.

<<<-- Originally posted by Anthony Marotti : Hello Guys :-)

* It appears that at 4:00 AM my cameras all work correctly, but at 6:30 AM, I get problems where the audio just stops while the video plays without dropout (the canons actually playback fine at 6:30 AM).

* I have four 50,000 Watt transmission antennas about 150' from my location :-o

I am betting that mid-day when I run these tests, the audio noise will be present with video dropout. I hope this is the case as it will mean that my gear is not malfunctioning, but that the high concentration of radio energy may be interfering with my gears error correction capabilities.


-->>>

Anthony,

That is very possible. You see, in the US, AM stations must do 1 of 3 things at night to prevent interference to other stations in other markets. They must go off the air, reduce power, or go directional.

Yours is a case of a clear channel (50kw) AM station switching form directional to non-directional at 6:30AM which, if you are paying attention is the current time of local sunrise. That switchover will occur at different times during the year but will be at local sunrise and sunset. That's why there are 4 towers. They are switched into a phased array at night to produce a directional signal. If you really are no more than 150 feet from the towers cranking out 50kw, it's a wonder anything electronic works in your home. That's one heck of an rf energy field your sitting in! You should install all flourescent lighting in your home because they would likey illuminate themselves and save you money on electric bills.

If your theory is correct, you should have no problems with your gear after the sun goes down. Boy, is that last sentence a loaded statement or what? ;D

=gb=

Hello Gregg

Well I am back to square one :-(

I have been working with the guys at Canon and we came up with that possibility together and it not only made sense, but it appeared to time out correctly.

Unfortunately, last night/or I mean this morning at around 3:30 AM, my Sony wouldn't play the tapes again :-(

This is weird because the morning before they played without a hitch. And it isn't just the Sony because my Canons seemed to have some playback issues too ??it is now 10:50 AM and I shot some footage on my XL1, XL2 and Sony at about 7:30 AM and guess what......

Now everything seems to work fine ?????

It could be a combination of RF Interference, Tape Quality, and maybe that Voodoo curse my X-wife put on me.... But I will not rest until I find out what is going on !!!!

Thanks for the continued feedback !


PS very interesting explanation of the broadcast transmission :-)

> You should install all flourescent lighting in your
> home because they would likey illuminate themselves
> and save you money on electric bills.

Cool!

Wouldn't want my body exposed to that 24x7 though. And some of us make a fuss about cell phones!

Bizzar.... Even the tapes that gave me the worst problems are now playing/and capturing without a glitch..........

I am going Nuts !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps a lawyer from the radio station read this and they immediatley dropped the power output!

Serioulsy though, remember the transmission is directional and can be affected by atmospheric conditions. It is possible that your home is not in the intended path of the transmission and, under ideal conditions RFI might be below the tolerance for your cameras. Most likely if you drive away and check all the cameras somewhere else they will ALWAYS work well.

Of course if you recorded some tapes in your home then the signal on them might be permanently out of tolerance or contain drop-outs, but that's a whole other issue.

If the array is only 150' away he's going to be in the near field and won't see much effect from the phasing. A primitive field strength tester can be made from a loop of wire and a neon bulb. If the bulb glows there's a good chance of trouble for unprotected electronics. Checking stuff out somewhere else is a good suggestion.

<<<-- Originally posted by A. J. deLange : If the array is only 150' away he's going to be in the near field and won't see much effect from the phasing. A primitive field strength tester can be made from a loop of wire and a neon bulb. If the bulb glows there's a good chance of trouble for unprotected electronics. Checking stuff out somewhere else is a good suggestion. -->>>

He had been reporting problems during daylight hours which is when the station would go back to an omnidirectional pattern. I used to have a 40 meter dipole stretched across the roof of my home and everytime I keyed my ham transmitter in CW mode, I was getting the 'incandecent' bulb in the hallway to glow faintly. Hehe..it scared the ***t out of my wife. Remember, this is AM broadcast we're talking and the whole tower is the antenna! No elevating the signal above the roofline with a ground plane on top of a tower like FM stations.

But, it sounds like the pattern hasn't held. I also like Ignacio's suggestion of moving the equipment elsewhere to see how it behaves.

Well Anthony, looks like you've got more investigating to do. But, I am convinced that you are getting hit with some type of interference.

good luck,

-gb-

Hey guys, Thanks again for the ongoing support, it is comforting, and much appreciated.

I am doing the "Drive Away" test today!

Thanks Again Guys !!!

Quote: It could be a combination of RF Interference, Tape Quality, and maybe that Voodoo curse my X-wife put on me.... But I will not rest until I find out what is going on !!!!

Anthony,

If it still messes up while you drive away test, then you definitely want to look into that 'voodoo curse by the ex-wife' possibility. As we all know, those things have NO geographical boundaries. Hehe...sorry, couldn't resist. After all, as a seasoned technician, I try to look under every rock no matter how innocent it looks.

good luck!

=gb=

Hello Greg :-)

Well I guess it is the Voodoo :-(

The weird thing is that the Sony works sometimes flawlessly, and all of the other cameras work flawlessly most of the times, but at times they all misbehave ????

I don't quite get it, but my efforts to isolate the problem and find repeatability have failed :-(

What scares me is when my 2 Canons screw up, because I will be using them on a corporate shoot soon and do not want faulty equipment to make my job more difficult than it needs to be. My other equipment is booked, and budget is tapped, so I have to go with this equipment package.

I am hoping that this anomaly is somehow environmentally related and that in my worst case scenario, I just have to do my captures off-site.

Thanks for the levity, it helps!!

Anthony, if you had trouble playing back during the drive away test it might mean the tape you were using was out of tolerance. You should start off with a new tape, not recorded in your home.

I use a line conditioner on all my equipment because I get voltage fluctuations.Just out of curiousity , do you use one?Is it possible you get fluctuations that may coincide?Just a thought

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : Anthony, if you had trouble playing back during the drive away test it might mean the tape you were using was out of tolerance. You should start off with a new tape, not recorded in your home. -->>>

Hello,

Yes, I think the tape may be one of the factors. I have tried this with several new tapes and get varying results (from excellent to the same as noted in my previous posts).

I will have to schedule some time to run some off-site tests using various tape stock.

Thanks for the feedback !!

<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Smith : I use a line conditioner on all my equipment because I get voltage fluctuations.Just out of curiousity , do you use one?Is it possible you get fluctuations that may coincide?Just a thought -->>>

Hello,

I have a special line into my studio that is isolated from the rest of the building and has its own ground, and that is conditioned as well.

Thanks for the thoughts !!

HI guys,

I was doing a search here because I had basically the same problem. I just got my XL2 this week and shot some video to try it out. Here is my set-up/info. XL2 - 4:3, 60i, auto mode with some manual focus, Maxell tape. For editing I use a Sony GVD1000 for capture (for the same reason as others here, I was told by experienced cameramen NOT to use the camera as a deck. Our local access folks won't let us do it.) Anyway, I use the Sony for capture and putting the final edit back to tape for the local station. In the recent past I had a GL1 and never had a problem switching taped between the two so I figured it should be no problem with theXL2. WRONG! The video was split in horizontal slices and the audio was terrible. I used the XL2 to capture to disk using Scenalyzerlive. It still looked bad, like it was shot at 15fps or less. Adobe wouldn't import the file. MSPro did, but it looked bad.

OK. Here is my simple solution. I was in the menu, getting to know the camera and setting it up, and went into the time code menu. I don't know (can't remember) if you can change such things on the GL1, but if you can, I didn't. In the Frame Setting, (back to XL2 now) I had it set to drop. (Can't remember if I did it or if this was the default when I got the XL2) I just set it to NON-DROP, shot a couple of minutes of video, put the tape into the Sony, and it looks great! Captured to disk, imported into Premiere Pro, it works just fine.

I don't know if this is your problem, but check your settings and try it. I'd like to know if it worked for you.

I see the last post here is Feb. 13, so you may have worked out the problem by now. If not, I hope this helps.

Dan

Hi Dan,

I think that you are falling into the same trap that I did.

First of all; Drop Frame is the default for the XL2 and for my Sony TRV 8 (the cam in question) the mode is also Drop Frame. I tried researching what most camcorders are set to by default (or fixed for those that can not be changed), but did not get an answer, I assume that Drop Frame is standard.

I was on track with many solutions, but just when I thought that I had it nailed down, it changed :-(

From what I have read, in general, if you shoot with one timecode option, you should capture with the same option. Using that theory, if most less expensive cameras are setup as Drop Frame, then changing the XL2 to Non-Drop Frame, would not be a proper solution.

To further complicate the problem, I ran tests using both modes, without any change in results.

Our common denominator is that we both used Maxell tapes! I think that whereas the less expensive tape stock may not make a difference with most scenarios, XL users must pay attention to this situation when we choose tape stock in combination with our choice of decks!

I am going to buy a DSR-11 and hope that the higher quality mechanism will alleviate the problem, but I will use the highest quality tapes for shooting contract work as well!!

Let's keep the feedback coming, I think it is important!

Hi Anthony,

This really ticks me off. I never had this problem with my GL1, nor the GL2 from the local access station. I have tried the drop and non-drop settings, Maxell, Sony, and Panasonic tapes, and nothing works. The only way I can get it into Adobe PremierePro 1.5 is to capture using Premiere Pro and the XL2. This combination (so far) poses no problem. I just wrote to Canon with a detailed description and told them it is unacceptable. I use my Sony GV-D1000 and ScenalyzerLive for capturing. I have done this for two years, and I will continue to do so even if it means returning the XL2 and getting something else.

When I pay as much for a product as I did for the XL2, (plus the Anton Bauer set-up and an extra two years warranty) dang it, I want it to work flawlessly. Don't you?

Dan

Hey Anthony,

Me again! OK, here may be our solution.

If you don't already have one, get a head cleaner tape. Clean your XL2 and the capture deck. Do it twice or thrice each. Get a NEW (Right out of the box) tape and record 5-10 minutes on it. Put it in your capture deck and give it a try. Worked perfectly for me. (You still may get a couple of blips at the beginning)

Here's what I think happened. The new XL2 had contaminated heads. Either from a protective coating (Deliberate application) or gunk from the factory. This contaminated the tape, which in turn, contaminated your capture deck. Like spreading a virus, we just kept sending it back and forth each time we used the tape.

I just did it and and not a blip, drop, or anything in 10 minutes of tape. If this is the solution, I'd recommend NOT using any tape that has been in the XL2 as it will still be dirty.

Let me know how it goes.

Dan

XL2 Manual reccomends cleaning the heads before use. And also reccomends using DRY brand tape head cleaners.

Someone else mentioned that but I didn't even find it until tonight. By then, however, the damage was done. I did, and should have stated so, use a dry head cleaning tape. Works just fine now but I am going to shoot some more tomorrow just to be sure.

Dan