To those that complain about Canon and the XL2...

Pete Bauer · May 6th, 2005, 07:29 AM

Bob, I thought from reading earlier threads that Canon is in the HDV consortium? I don't know for sure myself since I don't follow industry insider stuff -- but that's what's been said before.

Anyway, despite some posts by professionals to the contrary, my speculation over in an Area 51 thread pretty closely mirrors our discussion here that Canon may do better than HDV for any new prosumer-level camera:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=43620

Luis, I understand that for businesses either involved in short shelf-life video (eg, reality TV, local cable, etc) or with a client base that is happy with their current SD products (eg weddings/events), HD cameras may right now not be a business necessity. But I don't think it is a viewpoint that'll carry the day. A lot of us would be better off with an HD camera now, if we can get one we can afford, with similar control features to the XL2.

Reasons to shoot HD now include:
- Improved ability to composite and key with a good end result. (This hobbyist would love to have green screen keys so good that the viewer can't tell they are keyed clips...ain't easy with DV).
- Best quality for longevity of the material in the commercial market; a lot of content is shot for longterm use. (Despite the naysayers and the slow progress, in not too many years SD TV will be fully supplanted by HD)
- Many indie producers and hobbyists (perhaps the majority of prosumer camera buyers?) always want the best, whether they "need" it or not. As my wife is fond of saying, "Need is relative."
- Pete Bauer is geek enough to need to shoot his daughter's birthday party in HD...because he can. C'mon, y'all 'fess up...you know you WANT, I mean NEED, HD! ;-)

Marco and Kevin, I'm just a hobbyist, who incidentally, DOES have a 55" HDTV and HD programming, as do many of my friends and work colleagues. Just watched CSI in HD last evening with my wife (her fav show). Lots of people ARE buying HDTVs (ain't many 4:3 TVs being sold at Best Buy any more) and our main gripe is, as you pointed out, not enough HD programming. My belief is that HD has been slow to take off because not enough programming is shot and broadcast in HD. These new, relatively inexpensive HD cameras ought to open the floodgates for programming, and all us good folks here at DVinfo who can oughta help create that content! If I can afford an HD camera, I soon won't excuse cable/satellite providers for not being able to acquire and broadcast most everything in HD (and not that 4:3 SD-studio-camera-pillarbox-on-the-HD-channel CRAP)!

My XL2 will probably be beloved only until an HD cam like Panny's upcoming product -- or Canon's answer to it -- eclipses the XL2. In the meantime, I'm using the best SD prosumer camera on the market to develop my skills.

Richard Alvarez · May 6th, 2005, 07:44 AM

I just bought my Xl2 in November, and I am enjoying it. It's making me money and I'll probably "upgrade" in three years.

But I don't think it will be hdv. This is just a guess, but I have a funny feeling that technology will leapfrog past hdv, in about three years.

Just a gut feeling, based on the exponential leaps in technology and storage abilities.

HD adoption for the home viewer, will await SD prices before it gains anything like 50% market share however.

I must go now... the crystal ball grows dark....

Bob Zimmerman · May 6th, 2005, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Bauer

Bob, I thought from reading earlier threads that Canon is in the HDV consortium? I don't know for sure myself since I don't follow industry insider stuff -- but that's what's been said before.

That's true it has been posted that they are and I've seen a list with them on it. I e-mailed Canon sales about a GL3 or anything else in the works and I ask about HDV. That was the answer I got. Maybe the guy had no clue what he was talking about. Maybe Chris can clear this up.

Chris if Canon is part of the HDV consortium why would they say they have nothing to do with HDV? Maybe they are going to try something else!

Jay Gladwell · May 6th, 2005, 08:29 AM

Not answering for Chris, but Canon is widely known for holding their cards tightly to their chest! To say they are tight-lipped would be an understatement!

Jay

Bob Zimmerman · May 6th, 2005, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Gladwell

Not answering for Chris, but Canon is widely known for holding their cards tightly to their chest! To say they are tight-lipped would be an understatement!

Jay

That's the best way to play cards!

James Rhodes · May 6th, 2005, 08:39 AM

Yea guys but when everyone else cards are on the table, and we are all waiting to see if Canon will bet or fold on the HDV hand , then whats the freakin point of holding cards. There is no reason, what are all the other manufacturer gonna sprint to make what canon might announce ? NO

The XL series are the superior cameras in my mind, I just wish Canon would stop being that kid with the ball, you know the one who says OK WE PLAY IT MY WAY OR NO WAY GOT IT ? just cause he is the only one with the Joe Dimaggio Baseball.

Just my thoughts

Bob Zimmerman · May 6th, 2005, 08:56 AM

James did you read that e-mail I got? It almost sounds like they folded on the HDV format and maybe working on something else.

Richard Alvarez · May 6th, 2005, 10:24 AM

As long as were using poker metaphors, money money is riding on canon skipping over HDV altogether.

Bob Zimmerman · May 6th, 2005, 10:44 AM

Maybe Canon sat back and let Sony and JVC try out HDV to see how it works. Maybe ony and JVC told Canon to stick it. But if your part of the HDV constortium and you can't sell HDV cameras? Whats up with that?

Maybe Canon going to make a run with Panasonic and go HD instead of HDV,,,

Luis Caffesse · May 6th, 2005, 11:53 AM

Boy that would be fascinating.
They are a part of the HDV consortium, so that's odd that they would say that.
Hmmmmm.

But if they don't make an HDV camera, what codec would they use?
Like I said before, Canon has never introduced a new codec.
Add to that the fact that they've never sold decks.

So what will they release if not HDV?
A new HD codec based around HDD recording or solid state?
That sounds pretty far fetched for a company that has never been an early adopter or innovator (in terms of format at least).

(sorry, i'm getting into area51 territory now)

EDITED TO ADD:

oops, I really am in Area51 territory...seeing as the thread there is covering the same exact topic:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...t=43620&page=2

Perhaps this conversation should just migrate there?

Declan Smith · May 9th, 2005, 03:13 AM

Among many other considerations I had when buying the XL2 was, HDV uses even higher compression than miniDV, which means loss in colour information. Not good if doing blue/green screen work, I haven't done a comparison myself, but I have had plenty of SD challenges!

Choose the camera that suits your needs. Why do I need thousands of fiddly gadget buttons (like the Z1). Do I have a HD TV? (no), Does my audience ? (no). Do I want the extra hard disk space and rendering time ? (no). Do I want to buy into a bleeding edge standard ? (no).

Do I want a camera that feels right? (yes)
Do I want to be able to use existing accessories? (yes)
Do I want 16:9 native? (yes)
Do I want a versatile camera that can be handheld, or shoulder mount ? (yes)
Do I want to be able to change lenses ? (yes)
Do I want to be able to fit pro 35mm lenses at some point ? (yes, although I would hire these if necessary).
Do I want great sound and good headphone amp? (yes)
Do I want 25P filming mode) (yes)
Do I want optics that I can trust? (yes)
Do I care more about the technology than the end result ? (no)

The above was some of the considerations I made when choosing XL2 over HDV (SONY Z1).

For me, the canon fits the bill. For others it may not. Too much emphasis is put on technology.

Filming is about capturing moments/moods and capturing them well. I don't sit down and watch a classic and think "nice film, should have been done on HD".

No point arguing about it, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it comes down to personal choice.

May 6th, 2005, 07:29 AM	#16
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	Bob, I thought from reading earlier threads that Canon is in the HDV consortium? I don't know for sure myself since I don't follow industry insider stuff -- but that's what's been said before. Anyway, despite some posts by professionals to the contrary, my speculation over in an Area 51 thread pretty closely mirrors our discussion here that Canon may do better than HDV for any new prosumer-level camera: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=43620 Luis, I understand that for businesses either involved in short shelf-life video (eg, reality TV, local cable, etc) or with a client base that is happy with their current SD products (eg weddings/events), HD cameras may right now not be a business necessity. But I don't think it is a viewpoint that'll carry the day. A lot of us would be better off with an HD camera now, if we can get one we can afford, with similar control features to the XL2. Reasons to shoot HD now include: - Improved ability to composite and key with a good end result. (This hobbyist would love to have green screen keys so good that the viewer can't tell they are keyed clips...ain't easy with DV). - Best quality for longevity of the material in the commercial market; a lot of content is shot for longterm use. (Despite the naysayers and the slow progress, in not too many years SD TV will be fully supplanted by HD) - Many indie producers and hobbyists (perhaps the majority of prosumer camera buyers?) always want the best, whether they "need" it or not. As my wife is fond of saying, "Need is relative." - Pete Bauer is geek enough to need to shoot his daughter's birthday party in HD...because he can. C'mon, y'all 'fess up...you know you WANT, I mean NEED, HD! ;-) Marco and Kevin, I'm just a hobbyist, who incidentally, DOES have a 55" HDTV and HD programming, as do many of my friends and work colleagues. Just watched CSI in HD last evening with my wife (her fav show). Lots of people ARE buying HDTVs (ain't many 4:3 TVs being sold at Best Buy any more) and our main gripe is, as you pointed out, not enough HD programming. My belief is that HD has been slow to take off because not enough programming is shot and broadcast in HD. These new, relatively inexpensive HD cameras ought to open the floodgates for programming, and all us good folks here at DVinfo who can oughta help create that content! If I can afford an HD camera, I soon won't excuse cable/satellite providers for not being able to acquire and broadcast most everything in HD (and not that 4:3 SD-studio-camera-pillarbox-on-the-HD-channel CRAP)! My XL2 will probably be beloved only until an HD cam like Panny's upcoming product -- or Canon's answer to it -- eclipses the XL2. In the meantime, I'm using the best SD prosumer camera on the market to develop my skills. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

May 6th, 2005, 08:39 AM	#21
James Rhodes Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: United States Posts: 49	Card Yea guys but when everyone else cards are on the table, and we are all waiting to see if Canon will bet or fold on the HDV hand , then whats the freakin point of holding cards. There is no reason, what are all the other manufacturer gonna sprint to make what canon might announce ? NO The XL series are the superior cameras in my mind, I just wish Canon would stop being that kid with the ball, you know the one who says OK WE PLAY IT MY WAY OR NO WAY GOT IT ? just cause he is the only one with the Joe Dimaggio Baseball. Just my thoughts __________________ To Shoot or to be shot, that is the question!

May 6th, 2005, 11:53 AM	#25
Luis Caffesse Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 704	Boy that would be fascinating. They are a part of the HDV consortium, so that's odd that they would say that. Hmmmmm. But if they don't make an HDV camera, what codec would they use? Like I said before, Canon has never introduced a new codec. Add to that the fact that they've never sold decks. So what will they release if not HDV? A new HD codec based around HDD recording or solid state? That sounds pretty far fetched for a company that has never been an early adopter or innovator (in terms of format at least). (sorry, i'm getting into area51 territory now) EDITED TO ADD: oops, I really am in Area51 territory...seeing as the thread there is covering the same exact topic: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...t=43620&page=2 Perhaps this conversation should just migrate there? __________________ Luis Caffesse Pitch Productions Austin, Texas

May 6th, 2005, 07:44 AM	#17
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	I just bought my Xl2 in November, and I am enjoying it. It's making me money and I'll probably "upgrade" in three years. But I don't think it will be hdv. This is just a guess, but I have a funny feeling that technology will leapfrog past hdv, in about three years. Just a gut feeling, based on the exponential leaps in technology and storage abilities. HD adoption for the home viewer, will await SD prices before it gains anything like 50% market share however. I must go now... the crystal ball grows dark....

May 6th, 2005, 08:29 AM	#19
Jay Gladwell Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,244	Not answering for Chris, but Canon is widely known for holding their cards tightly to their chest! To say they are tight-lipped would be an understatement! Jay

May 6th, 2005, 08:56 AM	#22
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	James did you read that e-mail I got? It almost sounds like they folded on the HDV format and maybe working on something else.

May 6th, 2005, 10:24 AM	#23
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	As long as were using poker metaphors, money money is riding on canon skipping over HDV altogether.

May 6th, 2005, 10:44 AM	#24
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	Maybe Canon sat back and let Sony and JVC try out HDV to see how it works. Maybe ony and JVC told Canon to stick it. But if your part of the HDV constortium and you can't sell HDV cameras? Whats up with that? Maybe Canon going to make a run with Panasonic and go HD instead of HDV,,,

May 9th, 2005, 03:13 AM	#26
Declan Smith Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Gloucestershire, UK Posts: 187	Among many other considerations I had when buying the XL2 was, HDV uses even higher compression than miniDV, which means loss in colour information. Not good if doing blue/green screen work, I haven't done a comparison myself, but I have had plenty of SD challenges! Choose the camera that suits your needs. Why do I need thousands of fiddly gadget buttons (like the Z1). Do I have a HD TV? (no), Does my audience ? (no). Do I want the extra hard disk space and rendering time ? (no). Do I want to buy into a bleeding edge standard ? (no). Do I want a camera that feels right? (yes) Do I want to be able to use existing accessories? (yes) Do I want 16:9 native? (yes) Do I want a versatile camera that can be handheld, or shoulder mount ? (yes) Do I want to be able to change lenses ? (yes) Do I want to be able to fit pro 35mm lenses at some point ? (yes, although I would hire these if necessary). Do I want great sound and good headphone amp? (yes) Do I want 25P filming mode) (yes) Do I want optics that I can trust? (yes) Do I care more about the technology than the end result ? (no) The above was some of the considerations I made when choosing XL2 over HDV (SONY Z1). For me, the canon fits the bill. For others it may not. Too much emphasis is put on technology. Filming is about capturing moments/moods and capturing them well. I don't sit down and watch a classic and think "nice film, should have been done on HD". No point arguing about it, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it comes down to personal choice.