XL2 Settings Contest
 

Calling all XL2 owners!

I propose a contest to see who can setup their XL2 to match the Scene Files here. Take a look at that link at the different settings which Panny provides as preset setups. No prize for figuring out the Canon setups except that you get your name on record here as the Scene File Setting Founder ("SF squared").

So we are all on the same sheet of music, all settings are for 16:9, 24p, 1/48th shutter, no AE Shift, no Gain, no ND Filter.

All settings must be adequately described with a setting for each and every one of the following attributes:

Hue (-6 to 0 to +6)
Chroma (-6 to 0 to +6)
Area (-6 to 0 to +6)
Y-Level (-6 to 0 to +6)
Skin Detail (OFF, HIGH, MIDDLE, LOW)

Gamma (Normal, Cine)
Knee (High, Middle, Low)
Black (Stretch, Middle, Press)

Color Matrix (Normal, Cine)
Color Gain (-6 to 0 to +6)
Color Phase (-6 to 0 to +6)
Red Gain (-6 to 0 to +6)
Blue Gain (-6 to 0 to +6)
Green Gain (-6 to 0 to +6)

Vertical Detail (Interlace, Progressive)
Sharpness (-6 to 0 to +6)
Coring (-6 to 0 to +6)

Setup Level (-6 to 0 to +6)
Master Pedestal (-6 to 0 to +6)
Noise Reduction (Auto, Off, High, Middle, Low)

Did I forget any?

I'm going to attempt to document the AMALIE setting, a personal favorite of mine,as shown in the Scene Files.

Any takers?

Well, I guess 46 views with no reply is a resounding "NO THANKS".

I tried to setup the AMALIE scene today and like a recipe missing something I couldn't identify, I just couldn't tweak things to reproduce that style. I'll experiment more, post if I'm successful, and then "just let it go".

Hi Patrick. I think it's a great idea. I am one of the ones who didn't reply, mainly because I didn't realise that "Scene Files" in your first post was a clickable link. If you could make it more obvious I bet you would get more takers.

Richard

I applaud your efforts, Patrick. Admittedly I'm a little confused by the reluctance of XL2 owners to share their custom presets, as if they're closely guarded secrets to be kept hidden. It's not like this widely diverse group is in competition with each other, so I see no reason not to share presets.

Actually rather than trying to match the Panasonic scene files -- because it just seems to me like that might be some kind of copyright thing -- why not have a contest for "best custom presets" for certain generic applications such as weddings, or specific film looks or whatnot. Tell you what... to sweeten the deal, I can probably arrange a prize of some kind... some juicy toy for an XL2, how's that for an incentive?

Chris, Glad you chimed in, I was worried you might think I was misappropriating your forum to do this. Thanks again for all you do for this community.

Richard, I put the link in bold type and referenced it in the discussion. That tweak was easy...now if I can just find that last little setting for the AMALIE scene file. I'll be pretty embarrassed if someone else solves one before I do.

At the risk of sounding a little dense, wouldn't I need to own, rent, or otherwise have access to the above mentioned Panasonic camera if I was going to try to duplicate the looks of its scene files? Since I don't, and I suspect many XL-2 owners don't either, I think that might have been the reason for your lack of response. On the other hand, a contest for good old custom presets that emulate certain looks would be a good one. I might have time to participate in that one.

=gb=

Greg, I thought the idea was to tweak the XL2 settings to get as close as possible to the look of the scene file photographs. Sounds like a good way to learn how all these preset menu parameters affect the image.

Patrick, when I want to try out my settings, if you could just get me the contact details for the model in the picture, I will supply the flowers. :)

Richard

Ooops, you're correct Richard. By the time I got to the bottom of the thread, I forgot to go look at the link before I posted.(begins tugging desperately to remove foot from mouth)

-gb-

Greg, The link doesn't stand out very well, Richard has already pointed that out to me and I thought I'd fixed it, but obviously not. Sorry for leading you astray.

Richard, I'm with you on that; no credits (or phone numbers) on the website.

At the risk of sounding like a party pooper.....I just don't think you can get these looks right out of the XL2. I own and love my XL2 but I cannot for the life of me tweak it to get a DVX look or any type of Cinegamma look. I know the XL2 has the cinegamma settings and the cine colors but it just doesn't look anything like the DVX/SDX cine settings. Many acknowledge that and have come to accept that we need to do some post work on the XL2 to achieve these looks. I am one of them. I hope someone comes on here and proves me wrong........I'll join Greg and put my foot in my mouth too.

On another note can I ask about sensitivity of the settings on the XL2? I find that little slider adjustments do very little on most settings. It seems like the increment of change is so small that it does almost nothing unless you move it to the extreme settings. I complained about this when I first got the XL2 in Sept 04 and ended up talking with Don Berube. He convinced me that these little increments were designed to get precise settings in a usable range. I bought into that theory but have since come to the realization that it's completely bogus.

When comparing it with my old DVX100 (non A) it is absolutely terrible. I could go into the menu and choose color temp and add +1 or +2 and seriously start to see the image change. And it looked good. granted at the extreme end it was almost unusable...too much color way over saturated or way too desaturated. But it really did something and you could see major changes.

With my XL2 I am not even sure when I have a feature on or off. I tested outside shooting some swimming pool items that are bright colored and tried Cinegamma on/off and Cine colors on/off in several combinations. When viewing it back later I could barely tell the difference. Yet I am still having issues where I have scenes with moderate to average color objects in them looking flat and desaturated at default settings......then I crank the color gain up 2 notches and I see barely any difference. But if the wrong color red or green comes in the frame it blows out and is so over colored that it ruins the shot. I have people say "whats wrong with the colors?" when they see the footage. It is hard to Color Correct because 1 or 2 colored items are practically blown out and the rest of the scene is exposed properly or maybe even undersaturated.


I've had to resort to shooting without cinegamma or cine colors and all other settings at default and just color correcting and tweaking everything in Post. I just wish I could put the camera settings to use....but they fight me all the way!

Marty, You may be correct and we may not be able to achieve some of the scene setups.

But what are the options:
1. admit defeat, curl up and die
...or...
2. discover and share the scene configurations the XL2 is capable of

I like option 2!

Marty, the only way to notice the little changes is with an external monitor, the viewfinder on the XL2 is just not adequate IMHO. Also remember that when you choose the "cine" settings those are effecting the other settings. Set those to video or normal and you will see more of an effect when tweaking the custom pre-sets.

Another thing to remember about the XL2 is that, in general, it keeps colors more "legal" than most 1/3" CCD cameras. Of course, with the custom pre-sets, this can be overcome.

I am confident I could get ANY of the looks above in-camera.... just need to take time. In some cases, it may require a special white balance and/or an external filter....




ash =o)

Well number 1(admit defeat, curl up and die) is a bit extreme. But there comes a point where you stop beating your head against the wall and stop trying to make lemonade out of oranges. Sometimes it just isn't going to work no matter how hard you try.

My point isn't that I want to curl up and die. I just do the color curves and "looks" in post production. I would really like to get these looks in camera. But I just don't see it happening. I hope someone finds the magic settings.

Is it possible that certain parameters only really have a major effect if used in conjuction with others?

Of course I checked these setting on a production monitor. I hope you can find a way to get these loks in camera without filters. The entire idea is that you can hit a button and change presets. The range of looks I have seen Barry Green get with his DVX book and DVD is amazing and they can be stored in the 5 presets of the DVX for recall instantly. I am confident that with post work I can get all of those looks. But for simplicity it would be uber cool to call them up at will. I still love the Xl2 but have come to accept that some post coloring is almost always needed. JUst can't capture that magic look "in-camera".....maybe someone will figure it out! I hope!

Peace!

One thing that needs to be taken into consideration when comparing cameras is price. The AJ-SDX900 lists for nearly $27,000 as opposed to the XL2 for $5,000. I think it's close to comparing apples to oranges.

Jay

Jay & Marty,

Man, your glass is half empty. I don't think any XL2 owner assumes they can get the same imagery as the $27,000 Panny or a $$$ Grass Valley or a CineAlta, or...

The point is, let's share some presets in this community that may help someone setup their XL2 to get the best imagery the XL2 is capable of getting. Matt Cherry started me thinking about this with his excellent XL2 setup sheet. I'll gladly share the few setups I've played with and will even elaborate with 'wine critic' style descriptions if anyone in this forum would find it useful (...the palette is somewhat light, but leaves a pleasing after-image that lingers...).

If you don't want to do the Panny ones, share any setup you think might help somebody in this forum. Tell us about your 'Blade Runner' setup, or your '5 o'clock news interview' setup, or your 'Granny talks about the old days' setup. Any and all would be welcome I'm sure. I was just trying to give folks a tangible set of targets to shoot at. So far the AMALIE has escaped me, but its been fun trying to nail it.

I just want to share...can't we all just share? And if you're wondering, 'share' looks like Hue -3, Chroma +6, Area 0, Y-Level +3...

The original post sounded like you guys wanted to capture the looks on the Pana page. In fact there was a link to it. So that is why I was saying I doubt those looks can all be done in camera. As far as different looks that are XL2 exclusive.....that I can see being done. Maybe we can even get close to the Pana style images too!

But most of my comparison is based on tweaking a DVX100 and an XL2 together. And that is not a $27K camera. It is actually less than the XL2 but some of the gamma curves are in a class with the SDX900. Pana borrowed them from the big brother. The XL2 produces much cleaner higher res images than the DVX. I just wish some of the color tools were as responsive as the DVX. That's all.

Y'all, Marty is onboard now! All systems GO!

Seriously now, I've got a question about the XL2 concerning the Custom Presets feature.

Why is Skin Detail NOT one of the settings saved in the Custom Preset feature? Custom Presets saves 15 settings that affect the 'look' of the imagery. My understanding of the Skin Detail feature is that it affects the 'look' of the imagery when human flesh is part of the image. So why wasn't it a saveable setting also?

OK, I'll post my AMELIE setting as the first scene file for folks to sharpshoot. I'm completely open to criticism (constructive preferred) and would appreciate any input which would better this 'look' in an XL2 setup.

AMELIE

Hue (0)
Chroma (0)
Area (0)
Y-Level (0)
Skin Detail (OFF)

Gamma (Cine)
Knee (High)
Black (Press)

Color Matrix (Cine)
Color Gain (+6)
Color Phase (-2)
Red Gain (0)
Green Gain (+2)
Blue Gain (0)


Vertical Detail (Low)
Sharpness (-3)
Coring (+6)

Setup Level (+2)
Master Pedestal (0)
Noise Reduction (Off)

I'm hopeful this setup conveys the warm highlights and slightly green shadows of the film. I found the look even more effective when I white balanced with a +1/2 warm card. The +1 card seemed to overcook the color saturation. Enjoy!

I am guessing Patrick that it's not saved because it is so, so situation specific. Just a small change in lighting or other camera settings would likely neccesitate a re-tweak of the skin detail function.

That's just my assumption about what the design engineers were thinking.

=gb=

Marty,

I did notice the minimal slider effect you mentioned about 11 posts above in this thread. Specifically, the Coring setting seemed like it had no effect on the image at all until I set the max limit, and then only a subtle effect on the blacks.

I also wished the Color Gain setting had even more latitude than the +6 setting.

Greg, You may be correct that it is very situation dependent, but their making it hard to shoot a soap opera with this cam. ;) Isn't exactly repeatable capability the point of presets? If you knew you were shooting exactly the same host on exactly the same set everyday, that option would seem more attractive. I'm not, so it doesn't bother me much, I was just curious why that feature was not included in the Custom Preset capability.

I seem to recall Ash and Richard mention that they were willing to share a setup...any setup! Please gents, you're obviously experienced shooters and some of us neophytes could learn from you. How about your stab at the 'Holy Grail' of setups: Filmic Look. Or a less ambitious setup: News @ 10. Really, anything would be instructional.

Barry Green's Technicolor Dream Setup
(I just reformatted from another post in the XL2 forum)

Hue (0)
Chroma (0)
Area (0)
Y-Level (0)
Skin Detail (OFF)

Gamma (Cine)
Knee (Middle)
Black (Press)

Color Matrix (Cine)
Color Gain (+4)
Color Phase (0)
Red Gain (+2)
Green Gain (+3)
Blue Gain (-2)

Vertical Detail (Norm)
Sharpness (0)
Coring (0)

Setup Level (0)
Master Pedestal (0)
Noise Reduction (Off)

Here is one I use sometime for high shutter music or sports stuff... crushed blacks so NO detail in shadows... Knee set to high to help with contrast...
I will post some other presets when I get a chance to write them up...


ash =o)


Skin Detail: OFF

Frame Rate: 30P

Gain: -3dB

WB: warm

Gamma: Cine
Knee: High
Black: Press

Color Matrix: Cine
Color Gain: +3
Color Phase: +2

R Gain: +2
G Gain: 0
B Gain: +3

V Detail: low
Sharpness: +3
Coring: 0

Setup Level: -6
Master Ped: -6
NR: off

I'm glad you guys are finally sharing settings.

I was trying to get the Amelie setting working on my camera as it has always been a favourite of mine in Magic Bullet. I also like the Ice Cool looks on the Panny site too. I don't own an XL2, but it would be nice to see this thread grow with different looks.

Regarding how to actually set up looks I get conflicting information. Some say that you need to use a MacBeth chart with a waveform and vectorscope. Yet another very experienced engineer told me that he uses a MacBeth chart but without any form of scope as he says they interfere with the artistry. Some of those Panny looks were set up using a ChromaDuMonde chart (can you say $700!)

One of the better advices I saw was to set up a table with fruit and flowers, and preferably a person (like the Panny pictures), and then adjust the picture to your liking. Then evenly light a ChromaDuMonde or equivilent colour chart and take a note of the waveform and vectorscope formation.

With a program such as DV Rack, or even Vegas if you digitise the colour chart, you should be able to take screen grabs of the scopes. This way if someone else has the colour charts they can adjust their cameras to be exactly the same as yours even if they have a completely different camera.

Hue: 0
Chroma: 0
Area: 0
Y level: 0
Skin Detail: 0

Gamma: Cine
Knee: Low
Black: Stretch

Color Matrix: Cine
Color Gain: -1
Color Phase: -1

Red Gain: -6
Green Gain: 0
Blue Gain: -6

VDetail: Low
Sharpness: -6
Coring: 0

Setup Level: -3
Master Pedestal: 0
Noise Reduction: High

Thats my favorite preset on my camera. I use it for almost everything.

Simon, I'd have to agree that using a Macbeth chart and waveform monitor would be the way to provide exact reproduction, but that's a little beyond what I'm willing to do to reproduce a look. But as a Vegas owner you've presented me an interesting option for using the Vegas waveform tools...hmmmm.

Jon, Thanks for sharing your "almost everything" setup. I'll give it a spin.

Are you sure those are right? I will have to try it out but it looks like you will have super poppy greens and muted other colors. Also, when you set the NR to high it can really make fast moving images look bad... having the sharpness that far down really negates the need for NR anyway...


ash =o)

I don't have any cool settings yet, but I have a WIP modification of Matt Cherry's template to be printed and laminated as "business card" style cheat sheets. They will store well in any bag.

Let me know what you think. I'm still tweaking the layout a bit, so the categories will make more sense.



http://www.geocities.com/amjoyce2004/main.html
See the link under the camera pic.

Thanks,
Andy

Andy,

I really like the organization on your card. Based on Matt Cherry's card I developed a spreadsheet I've been using to keep track of setups and shoots. I'm willing to share it but don't have a method to post it. I'll email to those that ask for it on the condition you return email the spreadsheet after you improve it (and I know you will).

From what I see on yours, I know I need to add a Hardware section to accompany the software section.

All DVinfo XL2'ers,

Drop me a note at pking36330 at gmail dot com if you want the excel spreadsheet.

As always, constructive criticism is welcomed, heckling will be returned in kind, and derogatory attacks will be worked into a script so that I can laugh at you all the way to the bank.

Remain flexible yet sarcastic.

OK, the XL2 setup card layout is much better now.

http://www.geocities.com/amjoyce2004/main.html

See the link under the camera pic.

Thanks,
Andy

Andy, Now just pick a from the look you like from the Scene Files , see if you can recreate it, and send us all that scene on your new improved form!

I'm going to try and get the VIVID (emulates a “Velvia” look) setup this weekend as the hurricane washes ashore.

I think this is as good as I care to make it. I have the Excel file if anyone wants it. This is less valuable since the new preset manager is out, but if you can't carry around a laptop these will do for field setups.

http://www.geocities.com/amjoyce2004 (XL2 setup sheet)

Thanks to everyone for the inspiration!

I have heard of the DVX100 having better image out of the box and the XL2 needing post work for doing the same. But I'm from the old school, which likes to shoot plain old clean images and get the look in post. That way I have flexibility and can always go back.
So, I would take a true 16:9, higher resolution image with more lens options over preset looks any day of the week. Reason I decided to buy a XL2 over a DVX100a.

By the way Bill Porter, I didn't have a chance to reply to you over the other thread, because it was locked before I got to it. But the answer to your question:

Your answer is, if the reviewer made biased comments and posted unfair test comparisons and examples, yes I would have posted the exact same rant about how the site was biased. Because I do not own neither of them. I was researching about the cameras. I had no reason to be biased towards the XL2. Specially given I didn't like the old XL1. But the way the article is written, it's laughable. In the beginning, it made me think the XL2 was really that bad. But as I went on, I saw the problem was not the XL2, but the bias of the reviewer. After I read Adam Wilt's review and other reviews on the XL2 online, I was sure I was right about the extreme bias. After testing both, I know that review is bogus. It's pure propaganda.
Now, I have made my decision and it's a XL2. I should be buying one soon if all goes well.
So something tells me you didn't know the answer you thought you did ;-)

Michael, You "thread-jacking" me here. This thread is about sharing XL2 Settings between XL2 owners or users, not about whether an XL2 vs. DVX review was biased. Go get your own thread. They're free. You just can't violate the "no us vs. them baiting rule", which your reply seemed dangerously close to as I read it.

So...post an XL2 setup here or...move along...nothing to see here...break it up...go back inside...move along (and while I can picture the cop saying this in a movie, I can't for the life of me remember which movie it was, and I hate not beeing able to accurately credit a movie when I quote a line, dang senior moments are coming more frequently these days).

Didn't mean to hijack your thread Patrick. It just seemd to me the thread had turned into "the XL2 is not capable to replicate the DVX100 colors and or looks".It seemed to me people were, again, comparing the XL2 to the DVX100. It seemed to me, what was being said was that the XL2 can't match the DVX100 in colors and gamma, that the DVX100 does it better. I just wanted to express my opinion about the matter, which is, I take the XL2 16:9 and sharper image any day over a pre-set look. That's all.

Michael, sounds as if you not only like the XL2 but may own one. Come on now, cough up your favorite preset and post it here. 'Share and share alike' is what we do with preset setups, so give us your fav and explain how you use it. Thanx!

Hey Patrick, as I said on my first post in this thread, I don't own a XL2. I was recently researching for the purchase of a new camera and ended up between the DVX100a and the XL2. I decided for the XL2, but I didn't buy it yet. I will get one soon though and if I come up with any custom presets, I will sure share them here.

I don't understand all of the debate. This is a great idea. It will give those who wish to be involved, a real purpose behind playing with their settings. Whether people win or lose, everyone will become that much more familiar with their cameras. It seems to me that everyone who tries will come out a winner.

Yes indeed, Evan -- and thanks to you and Patrick for bringing us back on topic!

Discuss your favorite XL2 presets here! Got another topic? Start a different thread! Or better yet, find an existing thread about that topic and post there. You name it, we've probably already discussed it. Hope this helps,