Preset for working in dark environment
 

I'm working on a project where I'll be shooting outside in poor light conditions. I'm shooting a halloween event where there will be actors and props. I like to shoot in 24P + will be using VL 10LI light to give me a boost. Most of the props are lit up (some more than others). I'd rather not get any grain (i.e. due to increase in gain).

I did this event last year... with very little nottice + two months under my belt with the XL2. I'm just looking for some suggestions on a preset to use this year.

Here is the link to what I did for last year...

http://www.hauntedoverload.com/main.htm > click on the "Comming soon" > then the "Trailer" ...

Thanks...

Do a search for low light presets. Several have been posted in the past.

The basic things to do, however, are: boost the coring, crush the blacks, and lower the setup level and master pedestal settings.

Wouldn't you want to boost the blacks? You're trying to see into the shadows, after all.

I wouldn't think that's what he's after here. He mentioned that the props are lit and said specifically that he wants to eliminate grain. Crushing the blacks will kill a lot of unwanted noise.

It depends on whether he wants a contrasty image that will make the lit areas "pop" while minimizing noise in the shadows, or a low-contrast image that will allow him to see more detail in the darkness but that will be a little noisier as a result. I just assumed he was after the former based on the situation he described.

Sorry, I missed that part.

Thanks for the replys..

If I Stretch the blacks will I add more grain? Stretching will provide more detail in the shadows?

Also - I plan on keeping the gain at -3.

You won't really add any grain by setting the black setting to stretch, though you will risk having more chroma noise in the dark areas of the image. You will get more grain if you raise the master pedestal, though. These two things (along with raising the setup level) will give you more shadow detail, but your images will be noisier as a result. It's a bit of a trade-off.

Based on your description of the material you'll be shooting, I don't necessarily see why you'd need more shadow detail. If the props are all lit, even to varying degrees, then why do you need to see into the dark parts of the image? And wouldn't lots of darkness fit the Halloween spookiness idea pretty well?

If you're not sure which approach you'll end up preferring, why not set up two presets before the shoot--one with crushed blacks (including lowered setup and MP), and one with stretched blacks and boosted setup and MP settings. That way you can try both and see which you think looks best.

No need to keep the gain at -3, you can boost it up to +6dB with no noise if you adjust the coring up and the sharpness down a little, you can also turn the NR on low if that doesnt cover everything up. I prefer to crush the shadows, this will make it look more natural as it does to your eye...


ash =o)

Thanks for tha advice... I appreciate it. Getting the right preset is hard.. I don't quite have the hang of the preset settings yet.

I made up three presests:

haunt-1
haunt-2
haunt-3

I exeperimented in a dark room with the VL 10LI light, XL2 about 10 feet away from some different colored objects. Set at 24P 16x9 / Manual white balance / shutter all the way open / manual focus / +6dB for all shots. See attached grabs.

Here are the settings that I came up with. I know it would be best to do this in the field. But it's pooring rain out. Any additional advice is appreciated.


[Presets]
Preset Name = Haunt-1
Gamma = 1
Knee = 1
Black = 2
NR = 3
VDetail = 1
Color Matrix = 1
Color Gain = 5
Color Phase = 5
Red = 4
Green = 4
Blue = 4
SetupLevel = -3
Sharpness = -4
Coring = 4
MasterPed = 1
Description =


[Presets]
Preset Name = Haunt-2
Gamma = 1
Knee = 1
Black = 2
NR = 3
VDetail = 1
Color Matrix = 1
Color Gain = 5
Color Phase = 5
Red = 4
Green = 4
Blue = 4
SetupLevel = -3
Sharpness = -4
Coring = 4
MasterPed = 1
Description =

[Presets]
Preset Name = Haunt-3
Gamma = 1
Knee = 1
Black = 2
NR = 3
VDetail = 1
Color Matrix = 1
Color Gain = 5
Color Phase = 5
Red = 4
Green = 4
Blue = 4
SetupLevel = -3
Sharpness = -4
Coring = 4
MasterPed = 1
Description =

What Ash said. Using -3dB makes it that much harder to get enough light. You could repeat your test with a bit of gain and see if the grain really is unacceptable.

Richard

Richard-

I goofed and typed -6db ... I used +6dB in the test grabs. Sorry..

I just went out to the site for a couple of hours. I used my haunt-1 setting at +6dB and +12dB. Most of the characters that I'm shooting are more than 10 ft away. In some cases 30 ft. The VL 10LI light helps a lot... because it's very dark, not much light at all. I gotta give that light credit here...

I found the 12dB gain setting to give the best image in the view finder. It does not look all that bad on an NTSC monitor. A little bit of grain. I could use some advice on tweeking the setting to remove just a bit more grain. However, I can live with it.

Thanks....

Hi Tim. I was going through this thread again because I have to shoot a rock band at a club this evening, and I have no idea what the lighting is going to be like (except that it is out of my control). Thought I could pick up some tips for dark background situations. Then I found that I couldn't see any difference between your haunt -1, -2 and -3 presets. Is this a copy/paste issue or am I missing something obvious?

Richard

There's not a whole lot of difference. But just look at the blue toy, and you can see a slight difference.

Hi Adam. I can see clear differences in the frame grabs, I was talking about the preset parameters that Tim listed, they look the same to me. For example, if I set the camera to get the look of haunt-1, what would I need to change to get haunt-2?

Richard

If you look at the grabs you will see a black lense carrying bag behind the red basket. On the right side of the bag you can see the some writing. (i.e. manufacture name). This is most clear in haunt-3. Looks like more detail in the blacks in haunt-3 and haunt-1, less detail in the blacks in haunt-2.

I used the haunt-1 setting for my haunted yard project. In all cases I had to use the VL 10LI light, which by the way... was worth every penny. Attached are two grabs.

ghost.jpg - The ghost is 34 feet tall. I used haunt-1 with the gain at + 6 dB, 24P, wide open aperture, manual white balance & VL 10LI light.

monseter.jpg - About 8 feet away. I used haunt-1 with the gain at + 6 dB, 24P, wide open aperture, manual white balance & VL 10LI light.

Sorry I did not see your post yesturday Richard. If the band does not have stage lights then you could be in for a rough go. The VL 10LI light works great in run and gun dark situations.

Let us know what settings you used.

Tim

I see what you mean. I think it is a copy and paste issue. Sorry... I'll do the experiment again and repost the shots... sorry.

Tim

Hi Tim. I was a bit too far away for a camera light to have much effect, but the stage had all sorts of coloured and flashing lights going, so it worked out fine. I had to use +18dB gain (so no progressive scan) and 1/25s shutter to get enough exposure, and I pushed up coring and used NR to try to reduce the resulting video noise. I also pushed up the colour saturation and ended up with some very oversaturated colours due to the stage lighting. That sounds bad but the overall effect is very cool. The slow shutter gave some great looking motion blur on the drummer's sticks too. I'll try to post a grab tomorrow if I get time.

Richard

Hi Tim. Here's some frame grabs that show some of the range of lighting conditions. Not very sharp, due to the MB, but it looks better as moving video.

Richard


http://www.jaegercat.com/~richard/Firebrands1f.png
http://www.jaegercat.com/~richard/Firebrands2f.png
http://www.jaegercat.com/~richard/Firebrands3f.png
http://www.jaegercat.com/~richard/Firebrands4f.png
http://www.jaegercat.com/~richard/Firebrands5f.png
http://www.jaegercat.com/~richard/Firebrands6f.png
http://www.jaegercat.com/~richard/Firebrands7f.png
http://www.jaegercat.com/~richard/Firebrands8f.png
http://www.jaegercat.com/~richard/Firebrands9f.png

Richard-

Cool shots... Shooting bands in dark locations is always a nightmare when you have zero control over light. Here is a link to a short interview that I did at night using my haunt-1 setting.

gain = 6dB
24P
1/48 shutter
Manual white balance
Aperture = wide open
Distance from camera 15 feet
VL 10LI light

My first time interviewing people. The guy that was suppose to do the interviewing could not make it. I set-up the camera and handed to a buddy that just pointed it at who ever I interviewed.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...36175620006535

Did you use the on-board mic to capture the audio? Can you post some of the video to goodle video or youtube?

Tim

Hi Tim. Saw your interview, everything comes across fine and it is pretty clean so the light really helps.

I did use the on-camera mic, but will only be using the recorded sound to sychronise the video to an existing CD audio track released by the band. Anyway, I was moving around and getting very variable sound depending on where the nearest speakers happened to be. (And at some locations, the wind from the bass cabinets was blowing my trouser legs around like mad, it was so loud.)

Don't know if I can post anything on the web yet, need to check with the band because the music is copyright.

Richard

You might have some trouble with that if you're talking about a recording done on a separate occasion. It's doubtful that the band played their music exactly at the same tempo as they did when they recorded, for one thing. And even if they did, there will be slight speed-ups and slow-downs here and there that will throw off the sync. What you're describing sounds almost impossible to pull off. Good luck with it. :)

I shot a band the other night in very dark conditions, with varying levels of stage lighting. I was able to create a preset for the situation because I arrived early enough to ask the lighting technician to do a little run-through of the lighting when the band did their sound check. I crushed the blacks, gained up to +6, maxed out the coring, and backed off on the sharpness, among other things. I also went with the tungsten WB setting, because the different colors of the gelled stage lighting made it impossible to get a neutral WB. I was able to tweak the exposure during that sound check until I had found settings that worked on average in the changing lighting conditions--as such, I didn't have to make any changes to the gain or aperture during the show. The resulting video looks really, really good, I think.

The moral: get there early if you can, and try to do a dry run if at all possible. If it's not possible, then you can at least try to set up a preset that will work well with high-contrast stage lighting.

Jarrod,

Good point about the audio sync. I think we may now be off the original topic. Anyway, if you are crafty enough you can match pre-recorded audio to live video. A lot of the 70's rock bands did it. I.E. Led Zeppelin's "The Song Remains The Same" is a good example. There are many live shot's that simply do not match up with the audio. You have to pay close attention, or in some cases be a guitarist. It helps to have lots of footage of the live performance. Bottom line, you can pull it off.

As for the dark conditions... I agree, any chance to set up early and get the preset down is time well spent.

Hi Jarrod. Actually I do this all the time. Sometimes it's tricky as you say, but many times it is not hard at all. In this case, the song started at the same tempo, then speeded up very slightly from about halfway through. I'm lucky that I am intercutting with other footage, so was able to "steal" time here and there to pull the shots back into sync with the CD track. Knowing where to cheat makes all the difference!

Richard

Hi Tim. Actually, I ended up using hardly any of the live footage, because the story in the video is told through 3D animation. And what I did use, I mangled a lot of it, so overall this won't tell you anything about the low-light capability of the XL2. Anyway, just in case you are interested, you can see the video at the link below.

Richard

http://www.jaegercat.com/danger.html