Talk me into an XL2
 

Well, time is running out on the Canon rebates and I still haven't made up my mind on whether to get an XL2 or the XHA1.

I'm currently a student, so student-produced videos are my current uses for the camera. I will graduate in a little under a year and hope to begin working full time shooting video. I don't anticipate having to output HD material right away, but that is just a guess.

One of my instructors has encouraged me to get an XL2 due to the versatility and overall quality of the camera. I agree, it's a really great machine, especially compared to the XL1S I've been using.

However, I've been interning at a production house that uses smaller HDV cams for nearly everything. They use Sony, but I prefer Canon. So now I'm looking at the XHA1, and I've got just a few more days to make up my mind.

Please make some good arguments for the XL2. I want to make an informed decision here.

Thanks

What's your goal in filmmaking, and what's your budget for ALL equipment purchases?

2 questions, what's your budget? Do you want HD capabilities?
I own and use an xl 2 currently. I haven't had any requests for HD yet. So for the time being my XL-2 is perfect for my needs. You have to ask yourself the same question. Then you'll get your answer. Personally, if your shooting SD and your budget for a camera is under $5000 then I personally would recommend the XL-2. The main reason, interchangeable lenses, and all of the manual controls.

My budget is about $3000-$5000. Basically, the less I spend on camera, the more add-ons I can get right away. But it seems to be almost a non-issue here because the XL2 and XHA1 are only about $250 apart.

I don't expect to need HD, but I've read here on DVi that even in SD, the Canon HDV cameras can produce a better image than the SD cameras.

Your comment about lenses is valuable, for sure. The A1 has a slightly wider field of view in stock form, and there are wide angle adaptors. Perhaps the 3X lens is better than an adaptor?

Honestly, if interchangeable lenses aren't a concern then I would go wth the XH-A1, reason being, no need to buy a HD camera later. Like you said for a $250 price difference, why not future proof.

My goal right now is to create high quality shorts. I'm involved in several (very) small productions right now. I'd like to build a body of work that will help he to earn business in the future.

About $5500 for now. That's camera related equipment only. Right now I've got access to several edit suites so I'm trying to focus on the camera for the moment.


Well, I'm just not sure yet how important that is to me. I've used the 3x lens and liked it a lot. I've not used the adaptors available for the smaller cameras, so I'm not sure how well they can accomplish the same task.

Certainly the lens capability is a big strength for the XL2 over the A1. Any others I should take into consideration?

Well, to a certain extent I have. If this were an apples to apples comparison I'd choose HD in a heartbeat. But I don't have the budget for an XLH1. So I feel like I need to take into account the strengths and weaknesses of each platform and then make my decision.

Those who have posted similar questions in the A1 forum get unanimous votes for the A1. That's not surprising since most of the people who post there are owners/operators of that camera.

So I'm posting over here to get a more balanced view.

I think you can accomplish your goals with either one. I personally chose the XL-2 based on the fact that I wanted interchangeable lenses, and as of right now all of my work is still SD. I wanted the manual features that the XL-2 offers, I wanted true 16x9 and the option of 24 and 30p. I use the 16x manual lens exclusively with it. If need be I can add the 3x wide and 20xIS. For what I do with it, mostly corporate videos, VNR's and so on, it suits my company's needs. I'll go HD when I need to, or I'll rent one if I need to shoot HD for a project.

I Feel Ya
 

I came across the same decision last month and asked the forums for help. This is what I got:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91466

I decided to buy an XL2 and I'm lovin it! But of course the A1 is a lot better but I'm pretty sure the A1 will be the bottom line HDV within a few years.

Just ask yourself. Are you HD capable (PC, Mac, HDTV)? AND are your audiences HD capable? Bottom line, if money isn't much of a factor then go for A1. But you will be satisfied with either one in the end anyways. The XL2 is amazing.

HD will become cheaper in the near future anyways. Just my thought. Good luck.

I recently had the same choice: the XL2 or the XH-A1. I chose to stay with standard DV and go with the XL2. Why? My preliminary research (and reading this board) was hinting that working with HD was potentially an editing nightmare. At the moment, my G5 MAC can handle standard DV editing with no problem. To go HD, I’ve probably have to buy even more RAM, upgrade my graphics card and purchase monitors to even SEE my HD footage. Mo money! Mo money!

In production, focus is critical in HD. The onboard camera LCDs are not adequate so I would have to buy a larger HD monitor just to make sure I was in focus. Mo money! Mo money! It never stops.

Sure, I love HD but I saw nothing but problems with it. So unless you have the money to do a mighty upgrade (and a market demanding your work be in HD), I’d think twice about going to HD. Yeah, it sounds cool to say “I shoot HD” but are you ready for the headaches that come with it?

For now, I’m going with the XL2. It’s a tried, true and battle tested camera and format. It will suit my purposes just fine.

Also keep in mind that many professional movies have been shot with the XL2. It's a very capable camera.

I would personally say to go for the XL2. As a matter of fact, I did go for the XL2 considering I was in the same boat as you just a few months ago. I couldn't be happier with my decision.

Let me just fill you in on why I decided to go with the XL2 rather than the A-1: most of my clients request SD, the future of HD is still uncertain and I didn't want to end up with some first generation HD camera that will be obsolete in a few years, the systems required to edit HD right now can be extemely costly, I know hardly anyone that has a HD player leading me to believe that HD still has a ways to go with the general public, the cost of hard dkisk space and media gets extremely expensive.

My final decision was to go with the XL2, and rent a camera if a client does request the footage shot in HD. After all if the client has the money to fork out for HD work I can guarantee you that they won't flip when they see an HD camera rental in the budget.

All I can guarantee is that if you go for the XL2 you won't be disappointed. The camera is the definition of the word versatile. You can get a documentary look, or a cinematic look depending on how you adjust the camera. The straw that broke the camel's back for me was the ability to change lenses, not to mention the DOF on the stock 20X is amazing.

Just to clear up some misconceptions

HDV is actually smaller than DV when it is captured onto the harddrive, this is because audio is compressed and in DV it's uncompressed... the video bit-rate is exactly the same.

I have a sub $1000 system (PC) and edit HDV footage with incredible ease.

You can get a dual-core AMD Processor for under $100, motherboard for $100, 2GB of DDR2 Ram for $100... 500 gig drives are $100... everything is getting cheaper. You could build my PC for 6-700 and it handles HDV fine. (Using Vegas 7.0e and Vista Ultimate)

But if you're shooting SD, only want to deal with SD, and like all the options the XL2 has to offer (And are actually going to make use of them) then I recommend it... If you shoot in low-light situations a lot, Cheaper HDV cameras are pretty mediocre at it compared to XL2 or even the GL's

Hey Joe, how are Vegas 7.0e and Vista behaving together? I'm just curious because I was under the impression that Vegas didn't officially support Vista at this time.

-gb-

I do not know enough about all the features of the XHA1, but when I bought the XL2 in 2005 I went down a check list of features that were important or critical to me to make my decision. Many of those reasons still apply today. They are:

Removable lenses
On board Dual Channel XLR/4 Channel Audio
Native 16X9
Excellent lens options
(Good enough) low light capabilities
Customizable pre-sets
24P
Optical OIS

At the time I bought mine, HD was still embryonic, and even today it is still in it's infancy. Even though HD players are becoming more common, most of those are game units, and I would hazard to guess the ratio of people who watch true HD on their sets vs SD is still very low. In a couple years that'll probably change.
But,

I firmly believe that a well shot, well lit, properly focused image acquired on an XL2 will show very favorably on almost any medium for years to come.
I'm keeping my XL2 for the next couple years, and saving my bread for either the XLH1 (or even better, the XLH2, whatever that is...) or something in that caliber.
But if it were me, today, I'd either buy a used XL2 (from someone on this website, of course) or I'd seriously consider the XHA1.

On the weekend i was at a shoot and met up with another videographer that was shooting in Hd with a jvc hd 1.

Of course I wanted to check out his camera and he wanted to check out the xl2 and gl2.

The bottom line was he was amazed at the quality I could get out of my two cameras. Bottom line was he just did not have the adjustments to the picture quality, particularly that which the xl2 has.

In low light where we were out side with only stage lights on the xl2 made brillant footage.

Of course hd cameras have come a long way sense the hd1, but was still interesting non the less!!

I would go for an XL2.
I shot with both XL1s and XL2, and I've only read about the XH A1.
I think the XL2 is an amazing camera, but it's not worth it's price anymore (well, the european price, that is, here the camera still costs around 4000 euros or more :-S), but the XH A1 is a great bang for the buck - maybe the best out there at this moment.
To be honest, I didn't think there was SUCH a big difference between the XL1s and the XL2.
I've heard similar comments from someone who also had bought an XL1s AND an XL2.
The XL2 is without a doubt the better cam, but if you are going to invest in a new camera, go for an XH a1.

I DO love the manual controls and ergonomics of the XL cameras, but I never use the interchangible lens system.
XH A1 has a great HD picture, can shoot SD too, has all the controls the XL has (but in another form, more clunky), XLR (XL2 has that too of course), more image adjustements, iris ring, great lens,...

Something to keep in mind also is the shot stability. I have been coming across more and more threads about the shakiness of shots when shooting with the A-1. So if you do decide to go for the A-1 you should probably be prepared to invest in a descent steadi-cam unit as well, depending on what type of shooting you do.

The XL2 on the other hand has the excellent OPTICAL image stabilization and the ability to carry the unit on your shoulder enabling you to shoot amazingly smooth footage handheld, excluding extreme zoom shots.

xl2 or xh-a1
 

I just got up and running with my XL2. I, too, was long (4 months) debating whether to purchase this xl2 or the XH-A1, and for many reasons, I ended up going with the XL2.

My reasons for the XL2:

1. It is a top of the line, tried and tested SD cam, with outstanding manual controls.

2. newness of HD dissuaded me, as well as learning curve necessary for HD non-linear editing. additionally, for what I am going to shoot (art shorts and documentaries), the learning curve for SD is much more approachable for me.

3. price-the xl2 is slightly cheaper; editing system would cost me the same anyways.

4. interchangeable lens. the 3x wide lens for the XL series seems a much nicer option than using a screw-on wide angle adapter.

5. personal taste. for my artistic work, I do not want HD. There are situations even with the XL2 where I want to reduce sharpness or use a diffusion filter. HD, and many people will echo this, entails other issues if you are shooting people, specifically the *frightening* (in some cases) amount of detail! My image-conscious wife seconded my SD decision for this reason! A close-up in HD reveals every pore.

In the end, you have to decide what is best for what you are shooting. My advice would be that if you really do not absolutely need HD, go for the XL2. It is an utter beauty of a camera that will deliver you stunning images. It is definitely a camera that can help just about any filmmaker realize her or his creative vision.

are you kidding, what kind of question is that
 

If you didn't get the XHA1 and went with the XL2 I'd slap you. Are you kidding? Why in the world would you go with SD when it's a fact that HD is the future, the NEAR future! I have an XL2 and an XHA1 and the XHA1 kicks the XL2's ass, and HDV is a breeze to edit in Final Cut, it's just like editing standard def. The XHA1 has a better picture, smaller size, more picture controls, a pop out LCD not that stupid eye piece setup that the XL2 has, and a slew of other bomb features. You'd be straight up crazy to go with the XL2 over the XHA1.

I have not used the XHA1, but I have the XL2, and if you're deciding between only these two, I'd go with the XL2.

1. the XHA1 is HDV, kinda like the lowest form of HD there is. It shoots compressed HD...who wants that? There's a multitude of threads (especially on Apple's FCP discussion forum) about the problems with HDV. If you want to buy a camera that is going to have a format that is professionally accepted in the broadcast and film world in the future, I think it's HD, not HDV. It's up to you to look into the future and find out if your clients (or your audience) will need HD in the next couple years. If not, you could do enough SD stuff right now to pay for a nice HD camera in 3-5 years (with the XL2 as a backup...it is possible to put SD content into an HD project).

2. To Josh Green: I'd probably slap you for giving that answer. I think you don't know what you are talking about for two reasons. First, the pop out LCD takes up a lot of battery. Second, and most important, the reason the XL2 has an eyepiece is becuase it is SHOULDER-MOUNTED like most big-time professional cameras. The only non-shoulder-mounted camera I'd get is the Panasonic HVX-200 (which is HD, not HDV by the way), but that's another thread. The problem with the non-shoulder-mounted cameras IMHO is that it's tougher to keep a steady shot for more than 20 seconds without a tripod. Try doing an 2-minute interview without a tripod and see how steady your shots are. Think before you call something stupid. Do you see any news organizations looking through a tiny LCD? No. Because their $30,000-$150,000 camera is a heck of a lot more professional and uses an eyepiece.

3. I like the XL2 for its diversity and manual controls (which has already been talked about).

In all, I'd say go with the XL2 for now, and as I mentioned above, do a lot of projects so you can purchase an HD camera when the need arises.

Jonathan

I just want to jump back in real quick and say thanks for all of the input. I'm definitely taking all of your thoughts into consideration. I have not yet made up my mind but all of your posts have certainly been helpful so far. Keep 'em coming!

Josh

You got a lot of posts and good advice. But don't get lost.

Questions for you:

Do you need to invest so much for a camera for school?

If the answer is yes because you will then use this camera to get paying jobs, who will be paying you?

Who you expect to be working for will determine which camera you want.

If you are doing weddings, local commercials, promotional video and stuff like that, an XL2 is a great choice. Not only is it a good overall camera, but it really impresses clients when they see it.

If you are determined to see your stuff on National Geographics or Discovery, go with the way of the future, HD. But is this really where you expect to be right out of college? And yes! You can do it, but it may take dedication and travel.

FYI: I own and XL2 and I want to get into HD yesterday. But I am waiting because I can't afford the computer and the camera I would need. And my clients don't want HD. But I expect to move into the documentary arena in the next 1 to 2 years. In in 2008 I will be shopping. And here's another point, it would seem that the prices on the HD cameras and Macpros would drop a lot. So is it better to wait? It all depends on what you truly expect to be doing the first 1 to 2 years out of college.

How that made sense.

Al Diaz
www.advideoproductions.com

It does make sense.

I'm not buying the camera for school. The school has XL1s cameras I can use, but I can't use them to make money. They're just for school projects.

I'd like to start putting a reel together and getting some work. This requires me to get my own camera. If felt like I could wait a year or two I would. It seems like HD will have made a little more progress by then. But I'll graduate next year and I'd like to have a little bit of work under my belt by then.

My interest is in shooting more cinematic style work - shorts and such. Maybe documentary, but that's not my main focus.

You're kidding, right? HD is not the future, is the PRESENT! The future belongs to something even better. Maybe UHD?

Sounds to me like a good reason not to buy a HDV camera. HD technology is developing so quickly that it may be prudent to let the 1st generation of HD cameras pass and wait for the second generation.

I think Panasonic has the right idea with its P2 system, and I wouldn't be surprised if other manufacturers followed suit. It will be interesting to see what the HD market looks like in 3-4 years.

Definitely! See http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/16/s...mer-camcorder/

sd or hd again
 

Another consideration I made is the fact that I expect HD recording to go in the direction of 100% non-linear; that is, that hard-drive type recording systems will ultimately replace dv tapes. I guess I would rather wait a few years, when I can sell my XL2 (which has extraordinary value retention on the used camera market, just check out ebay and you'll see what I mean) and go HD, tapelessly.

In the end, the choice is yours. No matter what anyone tells you, neither is better, you just have to decide what will work for you and what you prefer.

Wow, Ervin, thanks for the link. It is definitely exciting to see SanDisk getting in on this developing technology. The reason P2 and other proprietary tapeless systems are not feasible for most of us is the ridiculous price tags that memory has. It really is about time that dv catches up to, for example, digital photography, in terms of economic benefits (cheap, big memory and storage solutions) and time savings (no playback needed).

... and P2 is much better than hard drive (no moving parts). Prices will drop like rocks - a 64 MB memory stick five years ago cost me as much as a 4 GB today.

Ask yourself what your 'need' is. What is it you NEED to accomplish?

Getting some footage for a demo reel? Why not rent a camera? If you plan your projects carefully, create a few 'spec' shots - then renting the best camera you can afford for a weekend or two will help you accomplish your need, with a much lower outlay of funds. With the added bonus of allowing you to rack up 'saddle time' with whatever brand(s) of cameras you chose to rent.

Bingo - your need for good footage for a reel is accomplished.


If you NEED a camera to shoot projects that will make you money/reputation RIGHT NOW... ask yourself what that project/client requires? SD or some flavor of HD? Will the income from these projects, offset the depreciation that will occur, the moment 'you drive the camera off the lot' IE open the box? IF yes, then ask yourself what those IMMEDIATE projects require, HD or SD? If SD, then buy the XL2. IF HD, the buy an HDV camera.

All this talk of 'future proofing' is nice. But the future holds a lot of interesting twists and turns in it. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if - say by 2009 when HD is 'supposedly' implemented across the broadcast spectrum,(congress has a way of dropping demands if the industry wants them... see 'mileage' and autos) and some flavor of HD has won the "Disc format wars" - That HDV winds up being an amusing 'interim' format that is obsolete. By then, thanks to the likes of RED and cheap storage solutions, we'll all be shooting variable frame rates, HD with RAW data. No 'long form GOP' at all.

Just my thoughts on the future, and why I continue to make money and get jobs with my XL2.

Buying the XL2
 

Well, I've decided to get the XL2.

I think the most significant factors were the flexibility of the XL2 form factor and the fact that I just don't need HD. The uncertain future of HDV and tape-based recording in HD also played a part.

Thanks a ton for all of your input. You guys really helped me out. Now I'll have to start bombarding you all with questions about how to use it!

Josh

Josh,

If you've been using an Xl1s in school, you'll pick up the practical aspects right away. The beauty is the variable presets - that takes a lot of trial and error, or download them from here and test drive them for the ones you like and find usefull.

You'll enjoy the camera. (and yes, expect 'buyers remorse' after any major purchase.)

Good choice, I love mine, you'll love the flexibility, and if you've been using the xl1s, then you'll easily adjust to the xl-2. Like I said before, until the govt makes the full transition to HD, you'll be fine with the xl-2. If you book a big project and need to go HD just rent one and build it into your budget. In the mean time have fun with your new camera and post some clips when you can. We always like to see what everyone else is doing. Congrats.

Good choice, Josh. Way to think out all aspects of the purchase. Enjoy!

Jonathan

Congrats Josh. You won't regret it.

This post is old but very relevent to me today. Used xl1 for five years, then xl1s (current camera for four years) was planing on a xl2 as I mostly need 16:9 and HD not at all. Was convinced after reading the reviews on the A1 that it was the answer. Took a A1 for a test run today and shot footage. Great footage, fantastic little camera, decided to buy it but wait and think on things overnight.

The xl2 is back haunting my mind already, Think I'll miss the lens changability, 4 track recording and three white balance storage settings right off. The lack of flip out screen on the xl2 is no bother as I mount a lcd screen on the rear of the 1's and could transfer it to the xl2.

Josh if you are still there. What's your thoughts three months latter?

Cheers,
Owen.

Owen,

You are in almost exactly the same position I was in. It's so easy to get lured in by the A1 and its HDV. What a great little camera!

But looking back, I'm so glad I went with the XL2. I change lenses all the time. The ability to get great depth of field with the 20x, and then go to a wide angle is huge for me.

As far as HDV goes, I was certainly tempted by it, but nothing I'm shooting will be delivered in HD. So the one advantage of the A1 would be wasted on me. I just had to take a realistic look at my needs and realize that HDV isn't something that I need.

I couldn't be happier with my XL2. My only complaint about the it is the tiny LCD, but it seems that you've got that covered. The form factor, lens options, and true 24p/30p options on the XL2 allow me to do so much more than I could with the A1.

I won't presume to tell you what to buy, but my advice is to take a look at how you like to shoot with your XL1s and ask if you could do that with an A1. Then take an honest inventory of your needs. Is HDV on that list?

Good luck, and let us know what you choose!

JLK

Just to jump in on this, I also just upgraded to an XL2. I chose the XL2 over an HDV cam for the following reasons:

Image Presets - there is just so much control over the in-cam image!

Manual Control - I would challenge any hand-held camera out there to have as many button- and knob-controlled features as the XL2.

Interchangeable Lenses: There is one aspect of this that most people miss. Although most people won't need the ability to change lenses, it is very valuable to be able to customize your camera in this way. Doing documentary? You'll need a wider field of view - go with the 3x. Doing movies? You've got the 16x manual. Event? 16x manual or 20x depending on how much zoom you need and how much you value manual lens control. Wildlife? There's any and all of Canon's EF lenses to choose from. It's awesome.

Need for HD: I don't have it. What is more, I think "future-proofing" with a current HD cam is pretty much an oxymoron. This technology is evolving so fast that, by the time I do need HD, I will be able to get better cams for less money. And that's even assuming HD is staying. With the recent 2k+ cinema cams, UHD may have kicked HD out by the time I NEED something more than SD.

Price - Even though XL2's hold there value well, you can still get a good deal on excellent used models. That's what I did.

Cheers!

"Price - Even though XL2's hold there value well, you can still get a good deal on excellent used models. That's what I did."

This is why i would be reluctant to buy an XL2 now...the same reason why i would buy one in fact (yes, that seem like nonsense but) :

Point is : if you can get a good price on a used one in good condition, go for it ! (assuming that the value of the camera is going to decrease quickly...and you won t get a lot of money for it later...)

If you have to buy it new... think twice about buying a camera that as already lost some value and will continue to do so...(probably more than a HDV camera)

My 2cents,

FWIW

Philippe

Thanks a lot Josh, Dale and Philippe. I'm going for the xl2. I've put my deposit down, they'll ship a new one in in a day or two. I'll let you know how it goes.
I took one for a test drive today. It's a nice camera.

Have you seen the xl2 tour on the Canon USA site? A 30 minute video. Well worth it if you haven't seen it yet.

Owen.