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-   Canon XL H Series HDV Camcorders (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xl-h-series-hdv-camcorders/)
-   -   Today is the day! (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xl-h-series-hdv-camcorders/51052-today-day.html)

K. Forman September 14th, 2005 01:56 PM

I'm with you Steven... How bad are they going to rape and pillage us for this cam?

Yi Fong Yu September 14th, 2005 01:58 PM

far as i know, the tape transport is still interlaced cause that's how the format is. so there's a bunch of conversion of progressive to interlace and back from recording to tape and tape to computer. even the XL2 "24p" will need to record on the miniDV's interlaced tapes.

Barry Green September 14th, 2005 02:01 PM


even the XL2 "24p" will need to record on the miniDV's interlaced tapes.
Yes, it does. And it makes no difference whatsoever.

Even the $100,000 Sony F900 CineAlta has to record its 24p image on interlaced HDCAM tapes. So?

The process of splitting a frame into fields and recording interlaced is transparent and irrelevant -- it doesn't harm the image quality at all.

Where interlaced is "evil" is in how it scans, and the prefiltering and flicker reduction done inside the camera. Recording progressive into an interlaced data stream is a nearly irrelevant factor.

Heath McKnight September 14th, 2005 02:18 PM

$9,000 for the camera, the lens, the whole d--n thing. (With apologies to "Jaws.")

BTW, please consider testing this camera before buying. Extensively, if possible. I made the mistake of buying the HD10 before any testing and I was VERY disappointed. I have used the HD100 a little bit, but not enough to make me decide to buy one. I'm going to do another test soon.

I used to be so in love with new tech, I blew too much money on it. Maybe this is a good time to remind everyone of my personal golden rule: a better camera doesn't make a better filmmaker/videographer, etc.


Jay Gladwell September 14th, 2005 02:26 PM


Originally Posted by Heath McKnight
Maybe this is a good time to remind everyone of my personal golden rule: a better camera doesn't make a better filmmaker/videographer, etc.

Heath, that pretty well says it. It's so easy to get caught up in the lemming syndrome!


James Emory September 14th, 2005 02:27 PM

That is one ugly ass camera! Four generations of XL systems and they still only offer that crappy servo lens. What is the point?

Ram Ganesh September 14th, 2005 02:55 PM


Originally Posted by Greg Boston
This is no longer 'prosumer' stuff. I think most will base their decision on buying this camera because it DOES have uncompressed output capabilites. As someone else said, true HD uncompressed for $8999 is another price/performance breakthrough.

uncompressed meaning 4:4:4?
is it still out as uncompressed (non-GOPed) HDV at 4:1:1 ?

Jay Gladwell September 14th, 2005 02:59 PM


Originally Posted by Ram Ganesh
uncompressed meaning 4:4:4?
is it still out as uncompressed (non-GOPed) HDV at 4:1:1 ?

Uncompressed at 4:2:2, so it says.


Ton Guiking September 14th, 2005 03:11 PM

Uncompressed out
[QUOTE=Dan Euritt]

"if this camera really does have an uncompressed HD-SDI output that is taken *before* the hdv processing, it's a dream come true for the handheld fast action work that i do... all that's lacking is a firestore or similar that'll record in a better format than that crippled hdv mpeg2."

well, for the real fast action work take the small one chip Sony HDV HVR-A1
or its consumer version. has component output...

ton guiking

Oh, and for the AG HVX 200 from Pana (coming soon) FireStore is developing a harddisk, for less than $2000....

Joe Carney September 14th, 2005 03:16 PM

Since the HD100 outputs 1080i 4:2:2 via component, I wonder how the quality will look between the two? Please no assumptions, just real world tests to do.

BTW, there are component to SDI converters out there, many folks in the Home Theater modding world are using them to convert their DVD players, and HomeTheater PCs.

This Canon has got to have Sony running scared more than anybody else (even if they are making the CCDs, though I would guess a popular Korean company is more likely). Good thing Canon isn't into game consoles :).

Panasonic has it's work cut out for it.

Boyd Ostroff September 14th, 2005 04:02 PM


Originally Posted by Joe Carney
This Canon has got to have Sony running scared

I really have to disagree with that. The FX1 and Z1 are very successful products, and the HC1 and A1 are now on the market. The Panasonic is still months away and so is the Canon. And neither of them really competes directly with Sony's products. They will have quite a lot of catching up to do in terms of unit sales.

And the Canon is going to appeal to a smaller market segment than Sony's cameras and costs almost 3x as much as the FX1 and nearly twice as much as a Z1. What exactly would Sony be scared of? I think Canon will be running hard to catch up. And this is not a negative comment on the Canon product at all. I just doubt that it will reach an audience nearly as large as Sony's HDV products and won't generate the kinds of profits Sony is seeing.

Now if/when Canon starts to aggressively introduce HDV cameras at lower price points, then Sony will have some cause for concern. But even then, Sony has taken a strong lead in that market already.

Michael Maier September 14th, 2005 04:10 PM

The point is, this camera is only interesting from a Broadcast studio point of view. Sure not so for indie filmmakers. The genlock is pointless for filmmaking. The SDI is very nice, but outputs interlaced only, again not the best solution for filmmaking. Comes with a non manual lens, not the best for filmmaking either. One can use a Mini35, but for those in a budget, the lack of a manual lens will be a bad thing. No real progressive! Even if it's as good as itíss said to be, it's not real progressive. I'm not doubting Chris Hurd here. He's seen it, but not really tested it. Whatever good it may be, will it be as good as real progressive? I don't see it. I'm mean, can you pull a clean full resolution still from it? How the issue raised by Nate over the pulldown?
I just don't see it. I take real progressive over a pseudo frame mode any day.
So I think Canon has really given up the filmmaking section of the market.. Maybe they just couldn't compete with Panasonic and decided to go studio/broadcast oriented? It really surprised me that Canon, basically the company which pioneered cameras for low budget filmmaking, pulled a "Sony" and released a camera which ignores the indie folks and embraces the news/studio/broadcast group, as Sony has been doing for years.
I know for sure I'm not cancelling my HD100 order. I think the HD100 is much better suited for filmmaking. It's basically fully dedicated to it, since it doesn't even shoots HD interlaced. The only thing the Canon has over the HD100 is resolution, but with that pseudo progressive, I'm not sure it will count as the Z1 doesn't. Besides, resolution is not all and doesn't make a camera. About 1080i, which filmmaker wants that? Yuck! That HD100 gets you real progressive HD, with 24,25,30fps in the same camera. PAL guys will again be ignored, without 24p in the H1 (as with the HVX200). I know some say in PAL land, 25p is good enough, but then again most of those who say that, live in the opposite side of the pond and are not PAL users. So they donít really know what they are talking about, as they have no first hand experience. Iím a PAL user and I know I want 24p. You can send the H1 in and change it to NTSC. Wow, what an useful solution. Yeah right.
Besides the 24/25/30p, the HD100 records 50p and 60p in 576 or 480 lines to tape and real 720p uncompressed out of the component. Not just interlaced only. I know it's not SDI, but I take progressive component over interlaced SDI any day of the week. Besides, you just add a $1,500 Blackmagic solution and you are capturing uncompressed HD to your system. When added to the cost of a HD100, it's not even scratching the bottom of the 9k price tag for the H1.
You know what else? I'm pretty sure Canon is continuing it's toyish build quality and it's amateurish menus, since I see they kept all the amateur non standard switch placements. That's something the HD100 shines too. The controls are very professional and are laid out like a pro camera. Also, just looking at the manual, it has an extensive amount of image control. It's DSP is one of the most complete and flexible I have seen in a camera in this price. Tops the DV500 and DV5000 for sure. While the XL2 menu is almost like a TV set dsp, with bars instead of numbers and most things accessible via menu only. But thatís not really the grip. Itís still useable. That thing is that it has nothing close to the range the HD100 offers. Maybe the H1 will, but Iím guessing it will be XL2 style.
The HD100 build quality is way superior to the XL2 (which the H1 seems to share the same body). I remember the XL2 I tested had the little plastic foot, where the menu wheel is, come off on my hands. A brand new XL2. After being shooting with pro cameras for so long, it felt so flimsy in my hands.
The HD100 also ships with a fully manual lens. Even if with it's short comings. But we don't know how is the quality in the H1 lens yet. Also, you have no other option for now. IT has a real iris ring too. I hope the H1 doesnít keep the stupid iris dial wheel from the XL series.
To top it all up, the HD100 cost just a little over one half of the H1. I know the HD100 is having first run issues, but Canon cameras had it too.
So really, unless you have a TV station or is into broadcasting, the H1 is just not your camera. The fact that it records HDV is the least of itís problems. If the H1 was a real progressive 1080p, with a professional menu and image control options (non XL2 style) and shipped with a manual lens, I would most likely bite the bullet and buy one. Even for the 9k. HDV if in the same level of the HD100, doesnít bother me at all. But as it is, Iím passing. Not even if it cost the same as the HD100, I would still not buy it. Interlaced + non manual lnes + subpar image control = No thanks.
Having said that, you have to respect Canon for one thing. While Panasonic has been mumbling over the HVX200 for like a whole year and hyping it all over the place, Canon comes quietly and without warning announces a camera and is ready to ship it in a little over a month. Wow, got to handle it to them. Impressive!.

Nick Hiltgen September 14th, 2005 04:34 PM

Wow, I can't comment on what the camera has or doesn't have and how the menu structure looks, However...

The list of menu functions is very similar to the list of JVC menu functions and the list of F900 menu functions (of course I'm talking paint menu here) so I don't think it's fair to assume that this will be the same crippled menu setup that the xl2 is accused of having.

Further Canon IS advertising the camera's ability to do 1080x1920 still images. This kinda makes me think that the 24F mode isn't so bad, at least not as much as the Z1.

Further the camera has TC in and out, I think any film maker that's ever used sync sound or a smart slate will really enjoy that feature.

I think that anyone that's going to spend 9000 dollars on this camera is not to worried about renting a mini 35 and some primes for 600 bucks a day when they really NEED manual control.

I guess the JVC and Canon are both good camera's I think if the 24F is as good as 24P then the canon may have an advantage in being the only "HDV" camera to deliver 24"p" in 1080 format. If it stinks then the JVC can do it with 720. IF resolution isn't a big deal to you then, it's not a big deal. If 9k is too much money then don't spend it.

I also don't think it's useless for people who want to shoot cine style, but that's my opinion and I haven't seen anything that's been done with it.

I think it's silly to bash a camera and make assumptions (that are incorrect when the infomation is out there) based purely on speculation. We'll see how the camera looks, we'll see how the JVC looks. My guess is the one with the person behind the camera who knows what they're doing will look better.

Greg Boston September 14th, 2005 04:50 PM


You have made a few incorrect observations in your post. You don't 'change' the camera over to NTSC or PAL, you 'add' that capability so that you have a camera that does both.

You don't understand about the 30f,25f,24f modes. They are just like when we used to have frame mode on the XL1s. You can scan every other line of the ccd at 60hz or...slow down to half that speed and scan the whole ccd at 30hz, 25hz, or 24hz and pull a full resolution frame out of it. There is NO RESOLUTION LOSS. They technically can't call it 'progressive scan' because the ccd block is native interlaced. They are likely keeping themselves out of legal issues as opposed to sacrificing technical quality. All in all Michael, as with any other new camera introduction, it's quite unfair to write it off until you have seen what it can do. It doesn't matter how it generates 24fps, as long as it looks right coming out of the camera.


Guest September 14th, 2005 05:04 PM

I agree with Boyd. Sony has nothing to be scared of for the following reasons:

-Canon's 6 to 8 months late.
-Canon's product is 3x more than other high quality products.
-A biggie for Canon has been interchangable lenses. Canon has it with the new XL H1, but as someone else pointed out as well interchangable to what and how much will those be?
-Sony has captured a huge share of HDV users and it's going to be difficult to get them to switch, especially if there's no good reason to and if they are going to have to spend another $6,000 to do so (depending on what they could sell their Z1's for).
-By the time Canon gets some users on this Cam, Sony will be releasing a second generation of HDV cameras with a year+ of experience under their belt.

Those are just a few reasons.

If I had a Z1, I'd be sleeping easy tonight.

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