It's all good. Please show us more whenever you can.

Hey Barlow congrats on your camera, I spoke with production and I should be able to upload some full on clips later on (probably after 9:00 pm EST), so I'll FTP those to chris when I get the chance.

Hopefully I'll be able to upload some actual production clips from today, later on, but in the mean time, I'm a little curious as to whether the resolution is too high for a mini 35. (may just be too much grain). Ok have to go back to set.

Ok sorry about to go to sleep, after a along day of shooting, I'm going to try and pull one of my favorite (well everyone's really) shots tomorrow good light, good depth of field A fast shutter speed (1/120)and a little contrasty.

That being said, for this shoot we're looking for a little but gritty so it works, but I'm beginning to think that the mini 35 with xl-h1 may not be good enough, like perhaps the grain isn't fine enough if that makes sense. (?) Perhaps someone will be able to confirm or deny this, but I really am starting to think that at this level P+S may have to devlop some "HDV" alternative that splits the difference between the pro 35 (ground glass) and the mini 35 (form factor). I could be wrong, but this is where I'm leaning.

I'd still like to see more, Nick, but what you're saying makes sense. The H1 is astoundingly sharp, and I wonder if the fact that they've crammed so many pixels into a such a small imager might mean that this camera would technically be even MORE demanding on the pro version, if they made it for a XL mount?

I'm uploading a file from yesterday to chris, it's not corrected or anything but it's fast motion and (pretty much) in-focus.

Maybe your use of higher (than 1/48) shutter speeds is freezing the oscillating ground glass. I'm not sure that the glass can move fast enough for faster shutter speeds.

Clips, por favor!!!!

Where are these clips?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Shooooooowww meeeeeeee the cliiiiipppppppppppppppppppppppsssssss!



ahhhhhhhhhhh, glad I didn't hold my breathe on this wait!

Chris could be out playing cowboy and indians with the horses.

Chris is probably playing the Lone Ranger...

ext. late evening

............Chris- Lone Ranger!

" bang bang,,we're on our way tonto!"

............Tonto- his buddy!

where too..


............Chris- Lone Ranger!

We must hurry back to the ranch...The clips..I forgot the clips..


............Tonto

ahhhh, the clips..

Cut to wide panoramic shot..
...Ride off to sunset..

The End...


However this could be a scene from Brokeback Mountain too..............!

I thought that was Bareback Mountain.

I'm currently at MacWorld. It's tough to orchestrate this stuff away from my office, but I'll do what I can. If I can get Nick's clips moved from the upload area over to the media server from this hotel room, then I will do so. Stand by,

Hey chris if you can, the only one that I think is a new(ish) clip is the one called xl-h1 production. That's the one I'd like to get people's input on the the most.

OMG...O M G, still no clips. Ahhhhh, what is the hold up. lol

PS: Btw How is MacWorld Chris?

I WANT TO SEE SOME CLIPS, more then anything elses I can think of, PLEASE upload them!!

Ok here's the m2t clip that I sent chris I think My Idisk is working. We're off tomorrow so I may be able to pull some of the clips from the past few days. we shot some fun stuff, I jsut don't want to put out too much stuff before they edit it.

http://homepage.mac.com/edgefox/FileSharing11.html

Nick,

Thanks very much for your update - I'm downloading as I type.

Can you please send the details about the clip (60i, 24F, etc), mini35?, what type of lens/focal length, etc?

Will look forward to future mini35 clips with the H1 as any/all have them available.

Thanks very much,

Shawn

Thanks Nick. What were your settings. It appears to have gain up.

I see the dead pixel. YUCK! Keep us up to date on that.

pappas

Nick,

Your movie looks scarry already!

Who is that guy about to stab with those knives?? he seems freaked out like he's about to go kill some zombies that he just watched eat his girlfriend or something! *smile*

I can't wait to see it color corrected. The high-Shutter speed got me trippin' like I'm watching 28 days later (without the grit). The very first feature ever made with the Canon XL-H1. Distribution is guaranteed! *smile*

- ShannonRawls.com

I think that's my issue with the groundglass on the mini 35, there was NO gain at all on this, it's just thick grain, I think P+S needs to come out with HDV ground glass to keep it from being too big. We were shooting at around 1/120th in 24F on the mini 35 with an 85mm zeiss superspeed set at 1.3T.

Shannon, you're somewhat right in your guess. But it's not my job to promote the movie, however it definitely has a 28 days' later feel. (I hope the distribution is guaranteed as well!)

I'll post my full opinions on this shortly, but right now I need sleep.

Nick all I can find on the P+S website is that there are 0 - 8 speed settings for the oscillation movement on the glass - because you are shooting at twice the normal shutter speed for 60i cameras and 2.5 times the normal shutter speed for film, I would suggest you would have to run it close to maximum speed in order to avoid freezing the grain in your image,which could account for the problems. Also the more you stop down the relay lens, the more obvious the grain pattern.

John, maybe it's a problem with our unit but we're running at full speed (8) and wide open (1) on the mini 35, I'm not really sure what else we can change. Could it be the fast shutter speed makes the grain more pronounced? I'll try and post some 1/48 stuff soon.

Absolutely! Nick dammit, you know better then to even ask that question.....don't you?? The high shutter speed is going to catch the ground glass/relay lens in the mini35 much easier then if you were at 1/48th. Just like it catches water droplets when filming water gushing from a hose or pouring from a glass. Nick are you drunk again? *smile*

I am sure P+S is working on an update. They are advertising the XL-H1 on their website, so I hope they are prepared for people having concerns like this. I was considering buying one, because I hate renting them. But I won't if it can't handle HD.

- ShannonRawls.com

Hi Nick,


If it were me I would scrap the mini 35 and go with either a 16x or 14x manual lens. I guess it would be to late though. I hated that ground glass look many years ago when it first came out, and I hate it today...

Nick where is your sharpness setting, it appears to high. If it's at 0 you should go down between -3 to - 6. If its down, go a little lower then. The hyping on edges is to extreme. If it's for effect, still lower it. you can always add the hyping look back in post. I like to shoot for a clean and healthy neg or digital master and then F%#& it up in post all I want......


pappas

I am the owner of the Mini35 rig that is working on this shoot. I have observed the "ground glass" problem that is being talked about here. The problem being described is actually not the ground glass. When the ground glass is spun the grain virtually disappears. Nick is reffering to an addtional frozen grain that appears on top of that. This grain is independent of spinning the glass. Tommorow, if they have a few seconds I am going to try a few experiments to see if we can isolate the problem. I suspect the problem is from the ziess lens (I have discovered a similar problem on a lens with a sky light filter), however I will take my Nikons to set tommorow a try some experiments to see if we can discover the root of the problem.

I have spoken with Guy the engineer at ZGC who told me the ground glass used on the mini35 is the same ground glass used in the pro35, so if this were the problem the pro35 would have similar problems with the big cams.

Michael, I'll check that sharpness setting, maybe that's what's introducing our extra "grain" for some reason I think it's at -1 now but I could be wrong.

I also, did some shooting with XL H1 and mini35. I also experience grain problem. And I also checked it with PS technics technical support, and they told me that high resolution of xl h1 couldn't be a problem with grain, since it the same ground glass is used in pro35, thus used with Cinealta they didn't have problems.

I did a lot of tweaking and finally arrived to some shots that seems to not have grain at all, or at least some grain, which is even nice and gives the shot more filmick look.

So, I thinks it is a matter of experience and experimenting. I will post my clips shortly. and seek your opinion.

But it's the first 1/3 ccd that has this high of res that's like a f900. This might be one reason. Maybe!

Well, ok, it is first 1/3 ccd, but resolution is resolution, and I don't think that grain has anything to do with the size of the ccd.

Other than that, I did a lot of experimenting, and now I achieved pretty nice pictures with mini35. I don't seen any grain, at least not more than film has. Actually, I think some grain that stayed make it look much better and more filmik. So, if any of you can share web space, I could upload them and you could watch. I am also looking for some web space myself and whenever I'll have it I will let you know. Meanwhile I do some more shooting with it, and I think even improve the picture quality, as my experience with mini35 gets broader.

Well, from what I see now on my 23 inch apple HD monitor, picture is great, everybody thought it was shoot on 35mm.

I use, Canon K series aspherical superspeed cinema lenses.

Levan,

Email Chris Hurd - he has been most helpful and generous in finding host space for test footage. I'm sure we'd all love to see your tests - most certainly myself.

I'm very interested in acquiring an H1, with a strong wish to use it with one of my mini35's. If you have any footage of the H1/mini35 with zeiss superspeeds in 60i and 24f modes, it would be incredible.

Thanks again,
Shawn

Chris is on the road this week (MacWorld), so I don't think he is going to be able to help right now...plus we are all taking so much more of our time lately to keep the flamers, trolls, profanity, and off-topic rants under control we have little time left for moving forward with interesting new content -- WHY, OH WHY can't everyone just respect the DVIinfo POLICY?

When he can, I'm sure Chris will respond about whether or not he can host some clips, but it might be a while.

noise and sensor size
 

Are you using "grain" as a synonym for "noise"? Smaller sensors imply smaller pixels (assuming same pixel count) which typically have more noise than sensors with larger pixels (assuming similar sensor technology). That is why P&S digicams with very small sensors have considerably more noise than 35mm SLR digicams with full-frame sensors.

Best,
Christopher

Well, what I mean is, the grain that is on the Ground glass. The first time I connected my xl h1 to mini35 and shot something, and then watched it on the monitor, I thought that I just lost $12000 which I payed for mini35. Because, you could actually see the ground class over the image, and you could even detect the movement of the ground glass. It was terrible. Then I called PS technics, and they explained to me that it couldn't be because of the resolution of the camera, rather it was from me not having experience. They told me some tips, and I applied them. Every next shot I did was improved over the last one, in terms of grain. Yesterday, I did some shots, and I achieved such a clean image (in terms of grain) that I even didn't like it, since usually film also has grain. From what I wrote here, I am not sure if I am confusion the right terminology of "noise" and "grain", but my understanding is that noise is something that is produced with video cameras in low light situations, and grain is actually the ground glass stucture, that can be seen.

So I hope that unswered the question. Also, I was promised a free web space, and I hope I will be able to post the clips shortly.

And I will post all of the new ones also.

Hi Levan, I too have a mini 35 and am having grain issues with my XLH1. Could you let me konw what they said about reducing the grain.

Thanks Martin

Ok
 

Here is the file you can download. It is an indoor shot as you will see, with a lot of dark areas in the picture. And in times the guy goes out of the focus. This is because, I have noticed that outdoor shots with a lot of light, have no problem with grain (also I have daylight shots, but there is not enough space to upload all), also grain tends to appear on darker parts of the image, and also when something in the picture is out of focus. So, I tried to solve that problem, so see for yourself, I think I overdid it, because now I think it is very clean, I think some more grain might not harm the picture.

I will be waiting for your comments.

so I am not sure if I write the link correctly but I uploaded the file to: http://209.82.46.115/H1+mini35.mov

It will take about 5 more hours to upload. so be patient.

Levan,

Do you have the ability to upload the original .m2t file by chance?

Thanks,
Shawn

To redeem myself (a little at least) I want to clarify that when I say "fast shutter speed" I'm talking about 1/90 typically. And to be honest, I didn't notice the groundglass when shooting at a SUPER fast shutter speed like 1/3000. So while I agree that it definitely effects what happens on the ground glass and in fron of the lens, I don't think that in my case it was the problem. The majority problem that Dan and I noticed was there was some non moving grain, which could be digital noise in dark scenes but there is also something there in the highlights as well.

in the p+s forum people were talking about perhaps the relay lens could be at fault, I'm not sure I really understand this but hey these are people who would know better then I.

Well, I don't have the mt2 files at all. I captured directly in FCP. I don't have web space, or I have bunch of clips I could share.

Dennis has gave me some ftp adress, (thanks Dennis) but I have some problems with uploading.

But I promise by the end of tomorrow I will have some space on idisk.mac.com

Just tested my XL-h1 - AND the P+S Technic
 

OK.. so I just tested my XL-h1 against the Sony, the JVC and a Panasonic Varicam.

I am not going to go in to a bunch of detail here.. but

Varicam beats them all, on all fronts....but not by a lot. Certainly not $90,000 better.

JVC had better color rendition than Canon and Sony... a lot better than Sony, not all that much better than Canon.

Canon was the sharpest, followed by JVC and Sony a distant 3rd.

The guy who owned the JVC couldn't stop talking about how awesome the Canon XL-h1 was.

then... we put P+S Technic Mini 35 on the Canon XL-h1.

I have shot with this adapter before, so I know what to do... unless someone else has a trick for me that I don't know... I could not get the spinning center of the ground glass to disappear. Just for grins, I switched over to SD and guess what???? It disappeared. I suppose I could try to soften the image coming out of the camera, but that would be defeating the purpose. I think I'll stick with the 20x lens for now.

I was extremely happy with the results of the test head to head with all the cameras we had there. It was a rather unfair test though... We decided to use the best possible "out" on all cameras... so the Canon image was HD-SDI out.. the others, were composite. Doh!

Chüc

I had this problem too on my HD100/Mini35 shoots.

I've decided I'm probably NOT going to use the Mini35 again with HDV. Too much grain, in addition to the fact that if you use any sort of Cinegamma that depresses the mids, you wind up with something like 50ASA!

[edit: actually, the gaffer on the last shoot I did with it rated it at 32 ASA]