Ready to test HD-SDI. Any requests? at DVinfo.net

Barlow Elton · January 9th, 2006, 10:21 PM

Hello again,

I'm going to be doing some tests with the Kona card. No, I can't go anywhere cool as my computer is still home-studio bound, but I can shoot out my back yard and maybe down the street, and of course in the house.

Chroma key isn't possible yet, but if tomorrow is sunny, I can shoot a low angle of one of my girls with a (hopefully) blue sky in the background.

I can post very short clips and still frames of different codecs. Any specific requests?

David Mintzer · January 9th, 2006, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

Hello again,

I'm going to be doing some tests with the Kona card. No, I can't go anywhere cool as my computer is still home-studio bound, but I can shoot out my back yard and maybe down the street, and of course in the house.

Chroma key isn't possible yet, but if tomorrow is sunny, I can shoot a low angle of one of my girls with a (hopefully) blue sky in the background.

I can post very short clips and still frames of different codecs. Any specific requests?

I would love to know how the SD looks---24fps would be nice---Anyhow, I look forward to your reports from the field.

Matthew Greene · January 9th, 2006, 11:08 PM

Anything with sharp transitions between highly saturated colors would be great.

Kevin Shaw · January 9th, 2006, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

I can post very short clips and still frames of different codecs. Any specific requests?

What codecs do you have? Some low-light samples in any or all of them would be nice: maybe something lit from a distance by a single 40W incandescent lamp, and another shot lit by just a candle.

Barlow Elton · January 10th, 2006, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

What codecs do you have? Some low-light samples in any or all of them would be nice: maybe something lit from a distance by a single 40W incandescent lamp, and another shot lit by just a candle.

Basically, all the codecs within Quicktime, but only some of them can be captured to in real time. I don't have a RAID yet, so uncompressed isn't possible. I'm thinking PhotoJPEG at 75% and DVCPRO HD.

The idea is to work with a different codec that would be high quality, but single hard drive workable.

Petr Marusek · January 10th, 2006, 02:07 PM

It would be nice if you could shoot a resolution chart. The pixel shifted CCD chipset is capable of 1920x1080 resolution, sent over HDSDI. The HDV section records max. 800 lines. The HDSDI may resolve 1,000 lines or more, if the lens allows it. Resolution over HDSDI is likely to depend on the lens setting, with most resolution probably at mid F-stop settings and mid zoom. You'd lose this resolution by recording to DVCPRO HD as it records only 1280 horizontal pixels, not 1920. If you need to compress, Prospect HD would be ideal and its demo version may be available for free.

Pete Bauer · January 10th, 2006, 02:35 PM

I agree about the limitations of DVCProHD for this purpose, however...

Prospect is a great idea if it works, but don't know if it would. Prospect Edit doesn't do ingest (capture), and Prospect Ingest is paired with the AJA XENA-LH card, so don't know if it would allow capture with the Kona (guessing not).

Maybe Dave Newman from Cineform can come to our rescue?

Petr, just a technicality to avoid confusion amongst folks...the approx 800 lines is a test that measures the picture detail at the "end of the chain." The HDV pixel size is 1440x1080 regardless of the detail within the image, which has generally been found to be about 800 lines.

Obin Olson · January 10th, 2006, 07:49 PM

please please use a free 15day trial of cineform, want to see how well the XLH1 does, I have a prospect edit system and I could display cineform files!

thanks for the help.

Barlow Elton · January 10th, 2006, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obin Olson

please please use a free 15day trial of cineform, want to see how well the XLH1 does, I have a prospect edit system and I could display cineform files!

thanks for the help.

Sorry, I'm on the Mac. It would cost WAY too much to put together the right PC to even be able to try Cineform. Plus, I would need a XENA card, instead of my current Kona LH.

Barlow Elton · January 10th, 2006, 10:39 PM

Hi guys,

I ran home late this afternoon so I could film some sunset footage out my backyard into the Kona card.

In a nutshell:

SHARP!! The HD image into DVCPRO HD is tack sharp. That said...I'm not convinced the quality of the codec is all that much better than mere HDV.
I was able to capture into a generic, (actually self-built) firewire drive with no issues.

I'm working on conforming 24F shots into 24p DVCPROHD in Cinema Tools. I tried capturing directly into a 23.98 capture preset, and guess what? I ended up with interlaced overcranked footage!!

It turns out the SDI output without any timecode reference will only spit out a 1080i signal that the Kona card can see, not 24PsF that you need to directly capture HDCAM 24p. If I can figure out a way to convert the BNC timecode port into a RS422, direct 24p might still be possible, but I'm having my doubts. Nevertheless, it is phenomenal output and you can conform to 24p (at least I'm pretty sure!!) in post.

Gonna work on exporting clips this evening...look for them sometime tomorrow.

Barlow

Shannon Rawls · January 10th, 2006, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

I'm not convinced the quality of the codec is all that much better than mere HDV.

That's the thing.....David Newman has been saying that for almost a year! Ofcourse you have people who spit out FUD all over the internet with a bunch of technical babble that hard to understand, much less PROVE, and so they scare people into a frenzy about HDV, when in fact HDV is nice.

David even goes so far as to say in some instances HDV is a BETTER CODEC and produces a BETTER PICTURE for most low movement shots.

Now here's the problem....

You shot a sunset, right?....OK, but what about a fast action fight scene?? How would HDV hold up if you had to record a hand to hand combat scene like Matt Damon in Bourne Supremacy??

*smile*

- ShannonRawls.com

David Newman · January 11th, 2006, 12:22 AM

Hi Shannon,

The MPEG encoders of these HDV camera are getting very good (particularly the progressive modes of the XL H1 and the HD100U in 24p.) Yes a fast action sequence is not HDV's friend, but the action be need to be totally choas (unwatchable) before the MPEG breaks down enough the be noticed in motion (so it isn't going be to an issue.) In the more still moments in your film, the efficiency of MPEG only helps for the best image. Of course people like to compare still frames at are in heavy motion, to show MPEG issues -- but that isn't a real test. The Digitial Cinema Initiatives have annouced a digital projection standard that uses a compression that would be noticable for a static frame, yet it looks perfect in motion. As we a making movies not photographs, HDV is an excellent acquistion format. And for that matter so is DVCPRO-HD. Nearly all the other camera features far more important than compression.

Barlow Elton · January 11th, 2006, 01:46 AM

There are a few tiffs up. Still working on clips.

www.homepage.mac.com/mrbarlowelton

Petr Marusek · January 11th, 2006, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Newman

HDV is an excellent acquistion format. And for that matter so is DVCPRO-HD. Nearly all the other camera features far more important than compression.

You have to look at the perspective that the more modern HDV codec is 25 Mbps, while DVCPRO is 100 Mbps. For the last couple of years Sony has not developed anything else but MPEG2 or MPEG4 compressed formats - HDV, XDCAM, CineAlta SR, XDCAM HD, Blu-Ray. My prediction is that by this 2006 NAB Panasonic will demonstrate the same trend in their new acuisition products; They may add MPEG4 to D5 to compete with Sony CineAlta SR.

Barlow Elton · January 11th, 2006, 03:50 PM

Guys,

I haven't had a whole lot of time to figure out a successful 2:3 pulldown removal in Cinema Tools, but I have a short 1080i (non-24F) FCP DVCPROHD sunset clip online.

Check out the transition from the gradient blue sky to the dark foreground. This was an uncompressed capture.

www.homepage.mac.com/mrbarlowelton

January 9th, 2006, 10:21 PM	#1
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Ready to test HD-SDI. Any requests? Hello again, I'm going to be doing some tests with the Kona card. No, I can't go anywhere cool as my computer is still home-studio bound, but I can shoot out my back yard and maybe down the street, and of course in the house. Chroma key isn't possible yet, but if tomorrow is sunny, I can shoot a low angle of one of my girls with a (hopefully) blue sky in the background. I can post very short clips and still frames of different codecs. Any specific requests?

January 10th, 2006, 02:35 PM	#7
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	I agree about the limitations of DVCProHD for this purpose, however... Prospect is a great idea if it works, but don't know if it would. Prospect Edit doesn't do ingest (capture), and Prospect Ingest is paired with the AJA XENA-LH card, so don't know if it would allow capture with the Kona (guessing not). Maybe Dave Newman from Cineform can come to our rescue? Petr, just a technicality to avoid confusion amongst folks...the approx 800 lines is a test that measures the picture detail at the "end of the chain." The HDV pixel size is 1440x1080 regardless of the detail within the image, which has generally been found to be about 800 lines. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

January 10th, 2006, 10:39 PM	#10
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Brief SDI update... Hi guys, I ran home late this afternoon so I could film some sunset footage out my backyard into the Kona card. In a nutshell: SHARP!! The HD image into DVCPRO HD is tack sharp. That said...I'm not convinced the quality of the codec is all that much better than mere HDV. I was able to capture into a generic, (actually self-built) firewire drive with no issues. I'm working on conforming 24F shots into 24p DVCPROHD in Cinema Tools. I tried capturing directly into a 23.98 capture preset, and guess what? I ended up with interlaced overcranked footage!! It turns out the SDI output without any timecode reference will only spit out a 1080i signal that the Kona card can see, not 24PsF that you need to directly capture HDCAM 24p. If I can figure out a way to convert the BNC timecode port into a RS422, direct 24p might still be possible, but I'm having my doubts. Nevertheless, it is phenomenal output and you can conform to 24p (at least I'm pretty sure!!) in post. Gonna work on exporting clips this evening...look for them sometime tomorrow. Barlow Last edited by Barlow Elton; January 10th, 2006 at 11:41 PM.

January 11th, 2006, 12:22 AM	#12
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Hi Shannon, The MPEG encoders of these HDV camera are getting very good (particularly the progressive modes of the XL H1 and the HD100U in 24p.) Yes a fast action sequence is not HDV's friend, but the action be need to be totally choas (unwatchable) before the MPEG breaks down enough the be noticed in motion (so it isn't going be to an issue.) In the more still moments in your film, the efficiency of MPEG only helps for the best image. Of course people like to compare still frames at are in heavy motion, to show MPEG issues -- but that isn't a real test. The Digitial Cinema Initiatives have annouced a digital projection standard that uses a compression that would be noticable for a static frame, yet it looks perfect in motion. As we a making movies not photographs, HDV is an excellent acquistion format. And for that matter so is DVCPRO-HD. Nearly all the other camera features far more important than compression. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 9th, 2006, 11:08 PM	#3
Matthew Greene Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV / Branson, MO Posts: 63	Anything with sharp transitions between highly saturated colors would be great.

January 10th, 2006, 02:07 PM	#6
Petr Marusek Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 155	It would be nice if you could shoot a resolution chart. The pixel shifted CCD chipset is capable of 1920x1080 resolution, sent over HDSDI. The HDV section records max. 800 lines. The HDSDI may resolve 1,000 lines or more, if the lens allows it. Resolution over HDSDI is likely to depend on the lens setting, with most resolution probably at mid F-stop settings and mid zoom. You'd lose this resolution by recording to DVCPRO HD as it records only 1280 horizontal pixels, not 1920. If you need to compress, Prospect HD would be ideal and its demo version may be available for free.

January 10th, 2006, 07:49 PM	#8
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	please please use a free 15day trial of cineform, want to see how well the XLH1 does, I have a prospect edit system and I could display cineform files! thanks for the help.

January 11th, 2006, 01:46 AM	#13
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	There are a few tiffs up. Still working on clips. www.homepage.mac.com/mrbarlowelton

January 11th, 2006, 03:50 PM	#15
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Guys, I haven't had a whole lot of time to figure out a successful 2:3 pulldown removal in Cinema Tools, but I have a short 1080i (non-24F) FCP DVCPROHD sunset clip online. Check out the transition from the gradient blue sky to the dark foreground. This was an uncompressed capture. www.homepage.mac.com/mrbarlowelton