Drop outs...
We shot a 3 camera concert two weeks ago with the H1, Sony FX1 and the new Canon HV 10.I finaly got a chance to watch all the footage.We shot in hdv 60i. Here's the results:
H1-3 drop outs in 55 minutes. HV10- 2 drop outs and I'm only up to 16 minutes!!!! FX1-No, that's zero, drop outs in 55 minutes. I normaly use Panny master MQ 60 minute tapes, but used the 83's for this event.I haven't used the head cleaning tape on the H1 yet, because I wanted to find out if Marty had used it yet. Any similar experiences or ideas? I've had the Sony FX1 since last summer and never had one drop out. Bruce S. Yarock www.yarock.com |
Very first thing you should have done is use the cleaning tape. That goes for new cameras and those you get from others. I certainly do. Do not be affraid of cleaning them!
And, posting the results without doing so negates the results entirely. Mike P.S. If you want to get rid of the terrible HV10, just let me know! :) |
Mike,
I just used the cleaning tape on the FX1, and will do so on the two Canons. Then I'll let the Canons record for a half hour, with the same tape,and see what happens. I thought you weren't supposed to use cleaning tapes that often, or on new cameras. i'll give it a try and report back. Bruce S. Yarock www.yarock.com P.S.- haven't forgotten the hurricane footage. We just need timeto finish it. |
Cleaning a new camera was posted here before, and I believe the Chris Hurd was one of those recommending it.
We end up worrying about and complaining about drops outs, and we are afraid of cleaning the heads. It is not going to kill your camera!! All those who have ever cleaned one to "death" and were the original and only owner, please tell us about it! Mike |
Bruce,
My Experience: H1 - 600 minutes = zero dropouts. My dealer (whose been in the biz 25 years), told me DON'T use the cleaning tape unless you have no choice. Can't you tape the cams in for a real cleaning? I'd appreciate some pro input on the topic on cleaning tapes. |
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"My dealer (whose been in the biz 25 years), told me DON'T use the cleaning tape unless you have no choice." Another misinformed person who causes problems. If you wait until a problem occurs, then you experianced a problem. If so, expect a problem! DUH! "Can't you tape the cams in for a real cleaning? Ok, here I am confused?!?!? Please explain. Mike |
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Sorry Mike,
I didn't mean to throw gas on the fire. Yes, I meant 'take' the camera in for a periodic cleaning. Kind of like an oil change every 20 tapes or so. Hey, I'm not professing to be an expert. That's why I said 'I would appreciate input from a pro' on this topic. I had read somewhere (on this board) to put a cleaning tape in before I used it and my dealer just about tackled me to the ground when I mentioned it to him. Hell, If we can save money AND dropouts by using cleaning tapes, then I'm in. |
Here's a thread...
Here's a thread that was kicking around awhile ago on the topic. No conlclusion was really reached there.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...light=cleaning |
From the Content Mafia man himself!
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=56923&high= "I have always advocated running a head cleaning cassette in any new camera, first thing right out of the box." Mike |
Touche! Mike.
No Mas!, No Mas! Page 138. XL H1 Manual - Video Heads 'To maintain best picture quality, we recommend cleaning the video heads frequently with the Canon DVM-CL Digital Video Head Cleaning Cassette or a commercially available dry cleaning cassette'. After reading it, I called my dealer again and he advised me to use sparingly. He said they're like sandpaper and are tough on the heads, (that's why they work). The dealer will do a pro cleaning for 50 bucks. He suggests once a year (twice if used heavily). |
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Sparingly is not a bad suggestion but frankly I think this dealer has not had enough time in the field when a head clog occurs or in the edit room when a problem has to be dealt with which could have been solved in the field easily. While a professional cleaning is useful/necessary maintenance.. there are plenty of situations were the head cleaning cassette is a better solution. The machines are so hard to open up and clean properly that any field cleanings should be first done with the head cleaner. If it doesn't solve the problem by the second pass then you might not be looking at a field solvable issue anyway. The cost of one lost shoot could easily be much higher than any additional maintenance cost you might incur by using the head cleaning cassette correctly. I have never replaced the heads on a DV camera or deck with less hours than the expected head replacement and I have used head cleaning cassettes consistently. Every 25 to 50 hours of recording is not unreasonable. Different formats and cleaners have different specs. As for the original dropout issue.. did you play the tapes back on the camera they were recorded on or did you use one of the decks as a playback? You could be just as easily running into small playback errors or even just the quality of the different tapes within the same batch. Consider yourself lucky that the 83 minute tapes recorded as well as they did. It also makes sense that the HV10 has the smallest and least expensive tape mechanism of the the three units and isn't as good as the XLH1 or the Sony. |
Editing system messed this long post up, so I'm dumping it.
Mike |
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The main advice is to try and stick to the same brand of tape and only use the cleaning tape sparingly. As Chris has mentioned long ago, use the cleaning tape on a new camera straight out of the box. I always try to use the same brand of tape in each camera, and only use the cleaning tape (same brand of cleaning tape as the recording tape) after plenty of tapes have been used or at first signs of banding on the viewfinder screen. Dropouts should be quite rare if you keep the heads clean with occasional 5 second (10-seconds max) record with a decent cleaning tape. If you ever need to change your brand of tape, need to buy a secondhand camera, or need to use a different brand of tape in your present camera for a short period, then run a cleaning-tape through your camera in record mode for a about 5-seconds. |
Update-
As per Mike's orders (only kidding, Mike), I ran a sony head cleaner through all three cameras. I set the H1 and HV10 on tripods this am and shot 50 minutes on each camera focused on my two parrots. I rewound and watched the ENTIRE 50 minutes on each tape, and saw no drop outs. Both cameras were being moved around while shooting the other night, so I hope it was the head cleaning that fixed the problem, rather than the lack of camera movement. Next I'll capture the two tapes from the concert with the HV10, and make sure there are no drop outs besides the ones I found in the original viewing. Thanks, guys Bruce S. Yarock www.yarock.com |
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I think I am now convinced that cleaning tapes are OK to use (sparingly). |
Ken,
Don't know if you got to read the whole thing or not, but thanks. There "IS" a serious problem with the editing system in DVinfo.net. That post was twice as long as what I found on line the next day. This is not the first time it's happened, more like 20 times! Please, everyone, don't be afraid to clean your precious camera. Mike |
Stupid question but does running a head cleaner through the tape drive in VCR mode also clean the record heads or jsut the playback heads? I tried to run it through in camera mode but when I hit record the H1 tells me the cassette is set for erasure prevention.
I have heard that the Sony head cleaners will allow you to run it through in camera mode to clean the record heads. Is this true. What's the real story. Inquiring minds want to know! Thanks! |
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Mike |
The main issue imo is that you used *80 minute* tapes.
I would NEVER recommend that anyone use those. They are thinner and therefore are much more prone to problems. We have machines that will eat 80 minutes tapes every time. |
I totally missed where Bruce said he used 80 minute tapes. I have never had good luck with those....even for plain old DV. I haven't touched one in years!
Hopefully that is all it was. Peace! |
Jaques,
thnks or the info. I was wondering if the 83's might have cause the problem. needless to say, I won't use them again. The strange thing,though, was that I used them on all three cameras. The two Canons had drop outs, but the Sony FX1 didn't..... Bruce S. Yarock www.yarock.com |
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Mike |
Mike,
Hopefully the cleaning did the job. That's it for mr for the 83's. Bruce S. Yarock www.yarock.com |
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