Drop outs... at DVinfo.net

Bruce S. Yarock · November 29th, 2006, 09:22 AM

We shot a 3 camera concert two weeks ago with the H1, Sony FX1 and the new Canon HV 10.I finaly got a chance to watch all the footage.We shot in hdv 60i. Here's the results:
H1-3 drop outs in 55 minutes.
HV10- 2 drop outs and I'm only up to 16 minutes!!!!
FX1-No, that's zero, drop outs in 55 minutes.
I normaly use Panny master MQ 60 minute tapes, but used the 83's for this event.I haven't used the head cleaning tape on the H1 yet, because I wanted to find out if Marty had used it yet.
Any similar experiences or ideas?
I've had the Sony FX1 since last summer and never had one drop out.
Bruce S. Yarock
www.yarock.com

Mike Teutsch · November 29th, 2006, 09:26 AM

Very first thing you should have done is use the cleaning tape. That goes for new cameras and those you get from others. I certainly do. Do not be affraid of cleaning them!

And, posting the results without doing so negates the results entirely.

Mike

P.S. If you want to get rid of the terrible HV10, just let me know! :)

Bruce S. Yarock · November 29th, 2006, 09:39 AM

Mike,
I just used the cleaning tape on the FX1, and will do so on the two Canons. Then I'll let the Canons record for a half hour, with the same tape,and see what happens.
I thought you weren't supposed to use cleaning tapes that often, or on new cameras. i'll give it a try and report back.
Bruce S. Yarock
www.yarock.com
P.S.- haven't forgotten the hurricane footage. We just need timeto finish it.

Mike Teutsch · November 29th, 2006, 09:58 AM

Cleaning a new camera was posted here before, and I believe the Chris Hurd was one of those recommending it.

We end up worrying about and complaining about drops outs, and we are afraid of cleaning the heads. It is not going to kill your camera!!

All those who have ever cleaned one to "death" and were the original and only owner, please tell us about it!

Mike

Ken Diewert · November 29th, 2006, 03:43 PM

Bruce,

My Experience: H1 - 600 minutes = zero dropouts.

My dealer (whose been in the biz 25 years), told me DON'T use the cleaning tape unless you have no choice.

Can't you tape the cams in for a real cleaning?

I'd appreciate some pro input on the topic on cleaning tapes.

Mike Teutsch · November 29th, 2006, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Diewert

Bruce,

My Experience: H1 - 600 minutes = zero dropouts.

My dealer (whose been in the biz 25 years), told me DON'T use the cleaning tape unless you have no choice.

Can't you tape the cams in for a real cleaning?

I'd appreciate some pro input on the topic on cleaning tapes.

"My dealer (whose been in the biz 25 years), told me DON'T use the cleaning tape unless you have no choice."

Another misinformed person who causes problems. If you wait until a problem occurs, then you experianced a problem. If so, expect a problem! DUH!

"Can't you tape the cams in for a real cleaning? Ok, here I am confused?!?!? Please explain.

Mike

Boyd Ostroff · November 29th, 2006, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Teutsch

Can't you tape the cams in for a real cleaning? Ok, here I am confused?!?!? Please explain.

I think that's a typo and should read "take" instead of "tape". In other words, he's suggesting taking the camera somewhere to have it professionally cleaned.

Mike Teutsch · November 29th, 2006, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

I think that's a typo and should read "take" instead of "tape". In other words, he's suggesting taking the camera somewhere to have it professionally cleaned.

OK, that's sure better than a cleaning tape. Is that covered under the warranty? What does it cost to send one to the, for instance, Canon service center, for cleaning on a regular basis?

Ken Diewert · November 29th, 2006, 04:45 PM

Sorry Mike,

I didn't mean to throw gas on the fire. Yes, I meant 'take' the camera in for a periodic cleaning. Kind of like an oil change every 20 tapes or so.

Hey, I'm not professing to be an expert. That's why I said 'I would appreciate input from a pro' on this topic.

I had read somewhere (on this board) to put a cleaning tape in before I used it and my dealer just about tackled me to the ground when I mentioned it to him. Hell, If we can save money AND dropouts by using cleaning tapes, then I'm in.

Ken Diewert · November 29th, 2006, 04:51 PM

Here's a thread that was kicking around awhile ago on the topic. No conlclusion was really reached there.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...light=cleaning

Mike Teutsch · November 29th, 2006, 05:00 PM

From the Content Mafia man himself!

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=56923&high=

"I have always advocated running a head cleaning cassette in any new camera, first thing right out of the box."

Mike

Ken Diewert · November 29th, 2006, 05:37 PM

Touche! Mike.

No Mas!, No Mas!

Page 138. XL H1 Manual - Video Heads

'To maintain best picture quality, we recommend cleaning the video heads frequently with the Canon DVM-CL Digital Video Head Cleaning Cassette or a commercially available dry cleaning cassette'.

After reading it, I called my dealer again and he advised me to use sparingly. He said they're like sandpaper and are tough on the heads, (that's why they work). The dealer will do a pro cleaning for 50 bucks. He suggests once a year (twice if used heavily).

Daniel Epstein · November 29th, 2006, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Diewert

Touche! Mike.

No Mas!, No Mas!

Page 138. XL H1 Manual - Video Heads

'To maintain best picture quality, we recommend cleaning the video heads frequently with the Canon DVM-CL Digital Video Head Cleaning Cassette or a commercially available dry cleaning cassette'.

After reading it, I called my dealer again and he advised me to use sparingly. He said they like sandpaper and are tough on the heads, (that's why they work). The dealer will do a pro cleaning for 50 bucks. He suggests once a year (twice if used heavily).

This dealer sounds like he had problems with head cleaning cassettes when 3/4 inch decks were king and hasn't revisited the issue since.
Sparingly is not a bad suggestion but frankly I think this dealer has not had enough time in the field when a head clog occurs or in the edit room when a problem has to be dealt with which could have been solved in the field easily. While a professional cleaning is useful/necessary maintenance.. there are plenty of situations were the head cleaning cassette is a better solution. The machines are so hard to open up and clean properly that any field cleanings should be first done with the head cleaner. If it doesn't solve the problem by the second pass then you might not be looking at a field solvable issue anyway. The cost of one lost shoot could easily be much higher than any additional maintenance cost you might incur by using the head cleaning cassette correctly. I have never replaced the heads on a DV camera or deck with less hours than the expected head replacement and I have used head cleaning cassettes consistently. Every 25 to 50 hours of recording is not unreasonable. Different formats and cleaners have different specs.

As for the original dropout issue.. did you play the tapes back on the camera they were recorded on or did you use one of the decks as a playback? You could be just as easily running into small playback errors or even just the quality of the different tapes within the same batch. Consider yourself lucky that the 83 minute tapes recorded as well as they did. It also makes sense that the HV10 has the smallest and least expensive tape mechanism of the the three units and isn't as good as the XLH1 or the Sony.

Mike Teutsch · November 29th, 2006, 08:54 PM

Editing system messed this long post up, so I'm dumping it.

Mike

Tony Davies-Patrick · November 30th, 2006, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Diewert

Sorry Mike,

I didn't mean to throw gas on the fire. Yes, I meant 'take' the camera in for a periodic cleaning. Kind of like an oil change every 20 tapes or so.

Jeez! If I took my cameras in to Canon for cleaning every 20 tapes or so, I'd have no money left in the bank to pay for the frequent cleaning bills...and no camera while it is being sent for cleaning.

The main advice is to try and stick to the same brand of tape and only use the cleaning tape sparingly. As Chris has mentioned long ago, use the cleaning tape on a new camera straight out of the box.

I always try to use the same brand of tape in each camera, and only use the cleaning tape (same brand of cleaning tape as the recording tape) after plenty of tapes have been used or at first signs of banding on the viewfinder screen. Dropouts should be quite rare if you keep the heads clean with occasional 5 second (10-seconds max) record with a decent cleaning tape.

If you ever need to change your brand of tape, need to buy a secondhand camera, or need to use a different brand of tape in your present camera for a short period, then run a cleaning-tape through your camera in record mode for a about 5-seconds.

November 29th, 2006, 09:22 AM	#1
Bruce S. Yarock Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pembroke Pines, Fl. Posts: 1,842	Drop outs... We shot a 3 camera concert two weeks ago with the H1, Sony FX1 and the new Canon HV 10.I finaly got a chance to watch all the footage.We shot in hdv 60i. Here's the results: H1-3 drop outs in 55 minutes. HV10- 2 drop outs and I'm only up to 16 minutes!!!! FX1-No, that's zero, drop outs in 55 minutes. I normaly use Panny master MQ 60 minute tapes, but used the 83's for this event.I haven't used the head cleaning tape on the H1 yet, because I wanted to find out if Marty had used it yet. Any similar experiences or ideas? I've had the Sony FX1 since last summer and never had one drop out. Bruce S. Yarock www.yarock.com

November 29th, 2006, 09:26 AM	#2
Mike Teutsch Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida Posts: 2,614	Very first thing you should have done is use the cleaning tape. That goes for new cameras and those you get from others. I certainly do. Do not be affraid of cleaning them! And, posting the results without doing so negates the results entirely. Mike P.S. If you want to get rid of the terrible HV10, just let me know! :) __________________ Chapter one, line one. The BH.

November 29th, 2006, 09:58 AM	#4
Mike Teutsch Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida Posts: 2,614	Cleaning a new camera was posted here before, and I believe the Chris Hurd was one of those recommending it. We end up worrying about and complaining about drops outs, and we are afraid of cleaning the heads. It is not going to kill your camera!! All those who have ever cleaned one to "death" and were the original and only owner, please tell us about it! Mike __________________ Chapter one, line one. The BH.

November 29th, 2006, 03:43 PM	#5
Ken Diewert Trustee Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Vancouver Island, Canada Posts: 1,200	Bruce, My Experience: H1 - 600 minutes = zero dropouts. My dealer (whose been in the biz 25 years), told me DON'T use the cleaning tape unless you have no choice. Can't you tape the cams in for a real cleaning? I'd appreciate some pro input on the topic on cleaning tapes. __________________ C100, 5DMk2, FCPX

November 29th, 2006, 04:45 PM	#9
Ken Diewert Trustee Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Vancouver Island, Canada Posts: 1,200	Sorry Mike, I didn't mean to throw gas on the fire. Yes, I meant 'take' the camera in for a periodic cleaning. Kind of like an oil change every 20 tapes or so. Hey, I'm not professing to be an expert. That's why I said 'I would appreciate input from a pro' on this topic. I had read somewhere (on this board) to put a cleaning tape in before I used it and my dealer just about tackled me to the ground when I mentioned it to him. Hell, If we can save money AND dropouts by using cleaning tapes, then I'm in. __________________ C100, 5DMk2, FCPX

November 29th, 2006, 09:39 AM	#3
Bruce S. Yarock Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pembroke Pines, Fl. Posts: 1,842	Mike, I just used the cleaning tape on the FX1, and will do so on the two Canons. Then I'll let the Canons record for a half hour, with the same tape,and see what happens. I thought you weren't supposed to use cleaning tapes that often, or on new cameras. i'll give it a try and report back. Bruce S. Yarock www.yarock.com P.S.- haven't forgotten the hurricane footage. We just need timeto finish it.

November 29th, 2006, 04:51 PM	#10
Ken Diewert Trustee Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Vancouver Island, Canada Posts: 1,200	Here's a thread... Here's a thread that was kicking around awhile ago on the topic. No conlclusion was really reached there. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...light=cleaning __________________ C100, 5DMk2, FCPX

November 29th, 2006, 05:00 PM	#11
Mike Teutsch Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida Posts: 2,614	From the Content Mafia man himself! http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=56923&high= "I have always advocated running a head cleaning cassette in any new camera, first thing right out of the box." Mike __________________ Chapter one, line one. The BH.

November 29th, 2006, 05:37 PM	#12
Ken Diewert Trustee Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Vancouver Island, Canada Posts: 1,200	Touche! Mike. No Mas!, No Mas! Page 138. XL H1 Manual - Video Heads 'To maintain best picture quality, we recommend cleaning the video heads frequently with the Canon DVM-CL Digital Video Head Cleaning Cassette or a commercially available dry cleaning cassette'. After reading it, I called my dealer again and he advised me to use sparingly. He said they're like sandpaper and are tough on the heads, (that's why they work). The dealer will do a pro cleaning for 50 bucks. He suggests once a year (twice if used heavily). __________________ C100, 5DMk2, FCPX Last edited by Ken Diewert; November 30th, 2006 at 12:59 AM.

November 29th, 2006, 08:54 PM	#14
Mike Teutsch Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida Posts: 2,614	Editing system messed this long post up, so I'm dumping it. Mike __________________ Chapter one, line one. The BH. Last edited by Mike Teutsch; November 30th, 2006 at 07:56 AM.