Help with HD-SDI please. at DVinfo.net

Daniel Patton · March 13th, 2007, 10:39 PM

We are evaluating the JVC DT-V24L1DU (24" Native 1920 x 1080, 16:9 Flat Studio Monitor, specs found here http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/f...l_id=MDL101631 ) with the H1 and are having a tough time getting the H1 to output anything other than SD-SDI or what looks to be scaled down HD as SD via the SDI on this monitor.

We use both Canon and JVC's cameras (although the H1 for us is new to the mix) and are considering this monitor for our green screen work and the SDI side of production. For the final workflow it would be HD-SDI to our MultibridgePro as DVCPROHD, then keyed. For now I would just like to get a signal direct to the monitor from the H1.

The monitor is set for 1:1, the H1 only shows a signal via SDI if I have the H1 set on "SDI Spec. - SD Locked". I'm guessing this is the reason I am only getting SD but having it set to "auto" displays nothing and the monitor simply looks for sync. I have tried what I believe to be every switch and menu setting on the H1 with no luck.

What setting could I have missed? Is the data stream compatible with this monitor? Thanks in advance.

.

Chris Hurd · March 13th, 2007, 10:57 PM

Hi Daniel, are you certain that the Mode Select switch on the XL H1 is set to HD?

And... you are using an SDI-spec cable, right? A normal BNC coax won't cut it.

Daniel Patton · March 13th, 2007, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Hi Daniel, are you certain that the Mode Select switch on the XL H1 is set to HD?

And... you are using an SDI-spec cable, right? A normal BNC coax won't cut it.

Thanks Chris.

Yep and Yep. I have tried every combination on the HD knob as well as the frame rates "i", "F1" & "F2" knob to boot for good measure.

I ran this same monitor with the HD250 as HD-SDI and was blown away by the image the monitor can produce (same cable). Anything from the H1's SDI as HD would allow me to sleep tonight. ;)

Thanks again Chris, anything else I might be missing?

Daniel Patton · March 13th, 2007, 11:34 PM

You did it Chris. You made me second guess my cable. Although it worked fine in SD-SDI, that same cable was losing signal in HD for some odd @$$ reason (and no it's not a long cable at onlyt 20ft). I grabbed another and BING it's working very ***** good! One bad one in the bunch I guess.

Now I can geek over the image quality, get a little rest and start shooting in the morning. Your a good man Chris, my new lucky charm in fact.

Thanks again and again and again, this is a great place you have here.

Peace!

Chris Hurd · March 14th, 2007, 08:05 AM

Great -- glad to hear it Daniel! It had to be something simple.

Greg Boston · March 14th, 2007, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Patton

You did it Chris. You made me second guess my cable. Although it worked fine in SD-SDI, that same cable was losing signal in HD for some odd @$$ reason (and no it's not a long cable at onlyt 20ft)

Just as you have specialized network cable for faster networks (cat 5, cat 6), you must have a specialized cable for the higher data rate of HD SDI.

It's the inherent resistance per foot and the capacitance between conductors that has to be minimized and/or optimized for higher frequency signals.

I learned a similar lesson the hard way. I lost my satellite signal to my living room tv. Several months prior, I had installed a 'regular' female to female bulkhead connector to a wall plate for attaching my satellite cable to. The sat technician that came to the house finally determined that it was that one piece of non satellite frequency spec'd hardware that had failed. He replaced it and all was well. I didn't suspect it because the receiver exhibited symptoms of a bad LNA and we had recently had some strong thunderstorms in the area. I had already had an LNA failure before so in my mind that was what had failed again. But nope, it was that 'standard' spec feed through connector.

-gb-

Nate Weaver · March 14th, 2007, 11:07 AM

Actually, I have a plain 'ole 25ft RG-whatever running HD-SDI to my Panasonic 17".

But I also know it's not supposed to work. So my point is sometimes it works, but don't be counting on it.

Chris Hurd · March 14th, 2007, 11:20 AM

Maybe it's mission-critical only for really looong runs, like hundreds of feet (certainly do-able with SDI).

Daniel Patton · March 14th, 2007, 12:55 PM

Thanks guys. You never know, it could be my Multibridge Pro needs a stronger signal (not), or bad connection on the cables BNC (more likely), or I was not chanting at the same time while holding my left foot. I'm familur to the later when working in Windows. ;)

I'm at the office now and running it through the BM Multibridge, it's producing a very nice image. however, I'm trying to figure out what setting to use as DVCPRO HD with the H1 so that I can avoid a render and work native to the live capture. It took a couple tries on the JVC HD250, but I got there.

Anyone have the settings down?

Kevin Martorana · March 14th, 2007, 09:23 PM

Wow...interesting discusssion....

We've been running good ole bnc cables..up to 50' on our HD-SDI outputs to monitors and NEVER had an issue with not seeing the signal.

Amazing....

Peter Ferling · March 15th, 2007, 07:52 AM

Good quality cable, and sometimes a good production run at the factory. (Now we know why monster cables cost so much more). I have used standard BNC cable before, but it was of high quality off the roll and good quality connectors. Much of that cheaper prefab stuff on the shelves won't do.

Speaking to Greg, when I upgrade to HDTV, I replaced all the the wire in my house with high quality cable (rated for HDTV), and replaced all the connectors and splitters with those expensive 1.5GHz units. The difference was night and day.

Boris Missirkov · April 17th, 2007, 01:58 PM

Hi Daniel,

Do you have any comments to share about this JVC DT-V24L1DU beast?

I'm wondering if it's the right choice for critical color correction before filmout - what would you say? Have you compared it against a CRT you trust?

Thanks in advance,

Best:

Boris

Daniel Patton · April 17th, 2007, 02:27 PM

Boris, although I have not compared it to a quality CRT, I personally don't think you can get the exact same image from one or the other, they will always be a different beast. I also have no idea if using a CRT or LCD is better for checking color for film out, this is better left to members with first hand experience. Anyone care to chime in regarding this?

However, DV mag did a review that sums up this monitor very well. Reading the review was like reading my own thoughts after using this monitor for the last month.

found here:
http://www.dv.com/reviews/reviews_it...leId=196602806

I have been running it now since the rep dropped it by, I'm currently looking to sell a body part to keep it. ;)

Its another item on our long list of must have purchases for this year. I have yet to see anything else on the market that comes close to it's price range, with the same quality image (and construction, very solid). Hope this helps some.

Peace!

A. J. deLange · April 17th, 2007, 03:23 PM

For a cable to function properly its characteristic impedance (square root of the ratio of the sum of the series inductive reactance and resistance per unit length to the sum of the parallel conductance and the reciprocal of the capacitive reactance, also per unit length) must match the characteristic impedance of the source and load and must be uniform from one end of the cable assembly to the other. Mismatch results in reflections. Low series resistance and low parallel conductance are necessary for a low loss (by heating of the conductors and dielectric) cable and multiple layer shielding is required for low radiation loss but it is not usually loss which eats your lunch, it is non uniformity in the characteristic impedance and 99 times out of 100 it is the connectors that are responsible. A good cable assembly requires a low loss cable with high quality connectors which have been properly installed and which have not been subjected to damage such as the center pin being bent or pushed in or out too far or to poor connection to between the shield (which should be multiple layer) and connector sleeve. Kinks and small radius bends and damage to the shield change the characteristic impedance locally and result in reflections.

Boris Missirkov · April 18th, 2007, 03:42 AM

Thanks a lot for the info, Daniel!

Ordered one today, and will hopefully get it in some 7-10 days. Another (surprising) good news is that this monitor will cost us about the same as in the US - although here in Europe most of the gear is some 10 to 30% more expensive by default.

Still not the piece of equipment one could afford for breakfast, but our old CRT's can't cut it any more even for PAL, no matter how I tweak them - and we've got nothing to view HD yet, so the deal seems to be OK.

Good luck with the body part business - I could recommend a couple of clinics in Iran or Albania, if you wish ;-))

Best:

Boris

March 13th, 2007, 10:39 PM	#1
Daniel Patton Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Knoxville TN Posts: 589	Help with HD-SDI please. We are evaluating the JVC DT-V24L1DU (24" Native 1920 x 1080, 16:9 Flat Studio Monitor, specs found here http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/f...l_id=MDL101631 ) with the H1 and are having a tough time getting the H1 to output anything other than SD-SDI or what looks to be scaled down HD as SD via the SDI on this monitor. We use both Canon and JVC's cameras (although the H1 for us is new to the mix) and are considering this monitor for our green screen work and the SDI side of production. For the final workflow it would be HD-SDI to our MultibridgePro as DVCPROHD, then keyed. For now I would just like to get a signal direct to the monitor from the H1. The monitor is set for 1:1, the H1 only shows a signal via SDI if I have the H1 set on "SDI Spec. - SD Locked". I'm guessing this is the reason I am only getting SD but having it set to "auto" displays nothing and the monitor simply looks for sync. I have tried what I believe to be every switch and menu setting on the H1 with no luck. What setting could I have missed? Is the data stream compatible with this monitor? Thanks in advance. . __________________ Our eyes allow us to see the world - The lens allows others to see the world through our eyes. RED ONE #977

March 13th, 2007, 10:57 PM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Hi Daniel, are you certain that the Mode Select switch on the XL H1 is set to HD? And... you are using an SDI-spec cable, right? A normal BNC coax won't cut it. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 13th, 2007, 11:34 PM	#4
Daniel Patton Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Knoxville TN Posts: 589	You did it Chris. You made me second guess my cable. Although it worked fine in SD-SDI, that same cable was losing signal in HD for some odd @$$ reason (and no it's not a long cable at onlyt 20ft). I grabbed another and BING it's working very ***** good! One bad one in the bunch I guess. Now I can geek over the image quality, get a little rest and start shooting in the morning. Your a good man Chris, my new lucky charm in fact. Thanks again and again and again, this is a great place you have here. Peace! __________________ Our eyes allow us to see the world - The lens allows others to see the world through our eyes. RED ONE #977

March 14th, 2007, 08:05 AM	#5
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Great -- glad to hear it Daniel! It had to be something simple. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 14th, 2007, 11:07 AM	#7
Nate Weaver Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,100	Actually, I have a plain 'ole 25ft RG-whatever running HD-SDI to my Panasonic 17". But I also know it's not supposed to work. So my point is sometimes it works, but don't be counting on it. __________________ My Work: nateweaver.net

March 14th, 2007, 11:20 AM	#8
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Maybe it's mission-critical only for really looong runs, like hundreds of feet (certainly do-able with SDI). __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 14th, 2007, 12:55 PM	#9
Daniel Patton Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Knoxville TN Posts: 589	Thanks guys. You never know, it could be my Multibridge Pro needs a stronger signal (not), or bad connection on the cables BNC (more likely), or I was not chanting at the same time while holding my left foot. I'm familur to the later when working in Windows. ;) I'm at the office now and running it through the BM Multibridge, it's producing a very nice image. however, I'm trying to figure out what setting to use as DVCPRO HD with the H1 so that I can avoid a render and work native to the live capture. It took a couple tries on the JVC HD250, but I got there. Anyone have the settings down? __________________ Our eyes allow us to see the world - The lens allows others to see the world through our eyes. RED ONE #977

March 14th, 2007, 09:23 PM	#10
Kevin Martorana Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lancaster, PA Posts: 250	Wow...interesting discusssion.... We've been running good ole bnc cables..up to 50' on our HD-SDI outputs to monitors and NEVER had an issue with not seeing the signal. Amazing....

March 15th, 2007, 07:52 AM	#11
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	Good quality cable, and sometimes a good production run at the factory. (Now we know why monster cables cost so much more). I have used standard BNC cable before, but it was of high quality off the roll and good quality connectors. Much of that cheaper prefab stuff on the shelves won't do. Speaking to Greg, when I upgrade to HDTV, I replaced all the the wire in my house with high quality cable (rated for HDTV), and replaced all the connectors and splitters with those expensive 1.5GHz units. The difference was night and day. __________________ Pete Ferling http://ferling.net It's never a mistake if you learn something new from it. -------------------------------------------

April 17th, 2007, 01:58 PM	#12
Boris Missirkov New Boot Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 16	Hi Daniel, Do you have any comments to share about this JVC DT-V24L1DU beast? I'm wondering if it's the right choice for critical color correction before filmout - what would you say? Have you compared it against a CRT you trust? Thanks in advance, Best: Boris

April 17th, 2007, 02:27 PM	#13
Daniel Patton Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Knoxville TN Posts: 589	Boris, although I have not compared it to a quality CRT, I personally don't think you can get the exact same image from one or the other, they will always be a different beast. I also have no idea if using a CRT or LCD is better for checking color for film out, this is better left to members with first hand experience. Anyone care to chime in regarding this? However, DV mag did a review that sums up this monitor very well. Reading the review was like reading my own thoughts after using this monitor for the last month. found here: http://www.dv.com/reviews/reviews_it...leId=196602806 I have been running it now since the rep dropped it by, I'm currently looking to sell a body part to keep it. ;) Its another item on our long list of must have purchases for this year. I have yet to see anything else on the market that comes close to it's price range, with the same quality image (and construction, very solid). Hope this helps some. Peace! __________________ Our eyes allow us to see the world - The lens allows others to see the world through our eyes. RED ONE #977

April 17th, 2007, 03:23 PM	#14
A. J. deLange Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: McLean, VA United States Posts: 749	For a cable to function properly its characteristic impedance (square root of the ratio of the sum of the series inductive reactance and resistance per unit length to the sum of the parallel conductance and the reciprocal of the capacitive reactance, also per unit length) must match the characteristic impedance of the source and load and must be uniform from one end of the cable assembly to the other. Mismatch results in reflections. Low series resistance and low parallel conductance are necessary for a low loss (by heating of the conductors and dielectric) cable and multiple layer shielding is required for low radiation loss but it is not usually loss which eats your lunch, it is non uniformity in the characteristic impedance and 99 times out of 100 it is the connectors that are responsible. A good cable assembly requires a low loss cable with high quality connectors which have been properly installed and which have not been subjected to damage such as the center pin being bent or pushed in or out too far or to poor connection to between the shield (which should be multiple layer) and connector sleeve. Kinks and small radius bends and damage to the shield change the characteristic impedance locally and result in reflections.

April 18th, 2007, 03:42 AM	#15
Boris Missirkov New Boot Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 16	Thanks a lot for the info, Daniel! Ordered one today, and will hopefully get it in some 7-10 days. Another (surprising) good news is that this monitor will cost us about the same as in the US - although here in Europe most of the gear is some 10 to 30% more expensive by default. Still not the piece of equipment one could afford for breakfast, but our old CRT's can't cut it any more even for PAL, no matter how I tweak them - and we've got nothing to view HD yet, so the deal seems to be OK. Good luck with the body part business - I could recommend a couple of clinics in Iran or Albania, if you wish ;-)) Best: Boris