Ken, with "a reference that might", can you be more specific. My computer is very slow. Cheers PC

The link points to the Canon Camera Museum site. The XL1S was introduced July, 2001.

and the discount on the XL1 ends June 30th. Hmmmm.

Probably next year at NAB ;)

We have just had a price reduction here in Australia of $A1000 so it could be close, as the XL1s was 3 years after XL1 & another 3 years is up, right? Ah, we're just a bunch of kids really but at least we act young. PC

So, contrary to the popular axiom so often touted here, is someone who *knows* *saying*? :)

By the way for what it's worth, I think native 16x9 and 24p are great and necessary features. But if it's not HD, I won't be upgrading from the GL2 for that. I'll wait to see what Sony comes up with in the HDV realm.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau :
Probably next year at NAB ;) -->>>

Thats almost a full year away! I hope it's not that long...

A$1000 drop on the xl1s? Hmm, might be time to sell my XM2 and upgrade to the XL1s, over the DVX100a which I'm currently planning. The look of the Canon is sweet and to be honest, quite a factor for me as I shoot news style stuff and would like a camera that looked more "pro' without shelling out 10K or more!

Aaron

Peter

That's an understandable position to take, but you might be in for a bit of a wait there. Based on the news from NAB, it looks like it's going to be very late this year, or most likely sometime next year, before any manufacturer is ready to ship a significant HDV camcorder.

"it looks like it's going to be very late this year, or most likely sometime next year, before any manufacturer is ready to ship a significant HDV camcorder."

So Chris, are you saying that the XL2 will not be a 'significant HDV camcorder'?

:)

-Luis

IMO, He is saying that the XL2 will not be HDV at all! :-)

All I'm saying is that according to what I learned from walking around the NAB 2004 show floor, and visiting Panasonic, Sony and JVC, all of whom were showing HDV "prototypes" but stating nothing would be ready until fourth-quarter 2004 at the very earliest, is that nobody should expect to see a major HDV offering until then. Canon as usual is tight-lipped about the whole thing, but again, look at your history.

History is important. You can learn a lot from history. History tells you where you are going and when future things are most likely to happen. Look at the history of DV. Sony came out with the VX1000 in early 1995. When did Canon introduce a DV camcorder? Not until November 1997. I believe it's important to study history, but then again, I'm a geek. So there.

Sounds like the XL2 won't be HDV, based on where the market is now. Since HDV is so close, though, I think it's at least worth waiting for for other cameras. I just wish I knew *what* I was waiting for. That's why I very much dislike the secrecy. From a marketing standpoint I think it causes me, at least, to say, "the hell with them, I'll set my sights on something that's definitely coming rather than hope for some upgrade I know really nothing about."

Hi Peter, you wrote:

<<<Sounds like the XL2 won't be HDV, based on where the market is now.>>>

If the XL2 comes out equipped (as I personally hope it will) with HD SDI
output and uses Canon 35mm glass,
I for one will be SUPER happy that it is NOT HDV native. HDV
looks good as long as you're doing talking heads, but when it comes
to action shots, nature/wildlife, color correction, etc. HDV is at best a
delivery format IMHO. HDV is MUCH more consumer than DV.

HD 292M is the real deal. Uncompressed 601
NTSC SDI output would work for me too, but real HD is what I've
seen and what I want. Remember, you can always compress the hell
out of HD and get HDV as the result, but you cannot go the other way.

From the camera, a single BNC jack w/
HD SDI output could go directly into a computer at super high quality.
Once in the computer, the video can be turned into just about anything
because you have gobs of resolution to play with. HDV will have macro blocks
like queen sized bed sheets.

When necessary, you can still take your storage over to a post house that has
expensive decks for real tape (D5/HDCAM/DVCPro100) recording.

<<<Since HDV is so close, though, I think it's at least worth waiting for for other cameras. >>>

It's always best to wait, because there is always something better planned.
But, I would suggest going to the alternate image area here and see what
is going on with a couple of the community members. I personally would
rather work with uncompressed 4:4:4 12bit NTSC (1gigbps?) and blow that up to HD using a box like Terenex's Volare than 25 megbps HDV.

<<<I just wish I knew *what* I was waiting for. That's why I very much dislike the secrecy. From a marketing standpoint I think it causes me, at least, to say, "the hell with them, I'll set my sights on something that's definitely coming rather than hope for some upgrade I know really nothing about.">>>

Exactly. Even if something super new/cool comes out, it is still best to wait
and see that is for real and not hype. Buy the 2nd round ala DVX100a.

The new JVC 'pro' shoulder cam
is still going to have a price of $20K according to JVC. Is that the kind
of money YOU want to spend for marginal
'fools most of them, but not the pros' quality?

Not me, I hope Canon has it's sites set WAY up there.

I agree, looking at history will show a company's patterns, and will show us where they might be headed.

Granted, we don't have much in the way of 'dv history' to go by, since the XL1 has only been in the game since 1997 as Chris pointed out. But, since we're speculating, I thought it would be interesting to point out that Canon doesn't seem to have a history of doing small upgrades on cameras more than once.

In 1991 the L1 camera was introduced.
The L1 camera was upgraded to the L2 some years later (I can't find the date).

Then it was transformed by a major change into the XL1 DV camera in 1997.

The XL1 was upgraded to the XL1-S in 2001.

If we go by this pattern, it seems that the next incarnation of the XL1s will be a major transformation of the camera as we now know it. I'm not saying that means it will be an HDV camera, but I do believe that it will be a marked difference from the XL1-s.
And, in keeping with their history, the camera will probably not be called the 'XL2', but will instead have a new prefix to differentiate it from the XL line.

So, from the short history we have, it seems that Canon has a tendency to upgrade cameras after 3-4 years, and then 3-4 years later transform them into entirely different models.

Hopefully this pattern will continue, and we'll see something very soon that will knock our socks off.

(although I wouldn't hold your breath for that HD SDI out, not at under 5K. Now you're just dreaming.)
:)

-Luis

PS.
In keeping with the intent of this thread, how about we add the option of wireless recording to an external hard disk to our list?

In case you think I'm crazy, here is an article from 1999:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/10...rewireless_up/

I would bet serious money Canon's next XL line will not have HD-SDI. That is going to stay in the pro realm forever just like digibeta. It's too much bits for consumers and not enough demand for the quality over HDV.

WHat happens if the XL2 moves futher consumer than pro as a prosumer camera?

What if it shows up with some highly compressed HD to fit on mini-dv tapes, no XLR inputs, a flip out LCD, and a fixed lens?

What happens?

Well, if it comes out without XLR inputs and a flip out LCD and fixed lens, then it probably won't be called the XL2. Canon would probably name it something like....oh, I don't know...the GL3?
:)

Seriously, if that happens, then it will be a big dissapointment.

Interchangable lenses have defined the XL line since the L1 cameras came out over ten years ago. There is no way that Canon would lose that functionality now. It is the one thing that has set them apart at that price level. If they release a camera without interchangable lenses (like the GL1, GL2) then it would not be considered part of the XL line.

-Luis

<<<-- Originally posted by John Threat : WHat happens if the XL2 moves futher consumer than pro as a prosumer camera?

What if it shows up with some highly compressed HD to fit on mini-dv tapes, no XLR inputs, a flip out LCD, and a fixed lens? -->>>

Simple. I'll get a DVX100a instead ;)

Aaron

FWIW, a poster in a Canon forum elsewhere on the web claims to have spoken with someone in the know - and that the next generation XL1 announcement should be out in July. That is consistent with the nominal 3-year life of Canon's high end camcorders over the past 13 years. A July announcement would probably indicate indicate a September availability in the US.

No information as to its specs, but an indication that the price point will be somewhat lower - probably driven by the VX2100/PD170 price points.

Don,

That matches up with what was said in the Area 51 thread as well:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=27075


By the way, I went to the forum you mentioned, and it looks like the post you saw isn't there anymore. Instead I found a thread talking about why it was deleted....
hmmmmm


-Luis

Luis, the thread that Don mentions on the other board -- which was deleted by their admins -- basically was an anonymous report from somebody who insisted they had been told by someone "in the know" that an XL1S replacement was definitely going to happen in July.

This guy's "proof" revolved around the XL1S rebate expiration date. Well for crying out loud, we've been discussing how rebate expiration dates can often signal new products, and we've been mentioning that for years around here.

It's as if that anonymous poster had a stunning revelation, which he would have realized is common knowledge if he had only been a regular reader here. Guessing new product arrival dates ain't rocket science. If you study history, then you can predict the future... a fairly simple and straightforward process.

yeah... its funny though how this exact prediction for the XL2 has been happening for almost a decade. Every year someone says "my dealer just told me they are getting them in next month"

Just seems like there are more concrete sources for this time around.

It's already about fourteen months late in my opinion.

heh heh.. Yeah, I agree, but you know as well as I do that there where 2 things that prolonged the release, first was the DVX, I dont think Canon had any idea how 24p would affect the market, and second last years implementation of HDV.

I think it will be quite the camera though, if it does every come out.

Except... HDV hasn't been implemented... only announced. To this day there is not a single HDV camcorder available for purchase (the JVC HD10 doesn't count, it's only pseudo-HDV). It'll be the end of this year at the earliest before anybody can actually buy an HDV camcorder. That gives an XL2 only a six-month window, but I have a feeling it'll sell well into next year no matter what does or doesn't happen with HDV.

Yeah.. the JVC kinda counts because it implemented the standard, given; its a shody implementation, but IMHO it still counts, since the actual format is used, The CCD's or body doesnt have much to do with the actual format, its kinda like the difference between the Canon $500 Elura and the XL1, they both are Mini-DV cameras.

The HD-1 isn't pseudo-anything--for all its unforgivable shortcomings--single chip and all--it is a vast leap in image quality over any other prosumer on the market and the once-great dinosaur that is the XL-1 can only ignore it at its own peril.

<<it is a vast leap in image quality over any other prosumer on the market>>

Betsy, given the inherently increased resolution of the format, in what other ways do you feel the HD-1 has superior image quality?

<<<-- Originally posted by Betsy Moore : The HD-1 isn't pseudo-anything--for all its unforgivable shortcomings--single chip and all--it is a vast leap in image quality over any other prosumer on the market and the once-great dinosaur that is the XL-1 can only ignore it at its own peril. -->>>

I think you should change that to "vast leap in resolution" as the HD-1 arguably has the worst image quality of ANY prosumer camera on the market.. but as you mentioned it is mostly due to its lower quality optics and single chipped CCD.

Heh Heh Charles looks like you snuck one in a second before me :)

<<<-- Originally posted by Betsy Moore : The HD-1 isn't pseudo-anything -->>>

The quote psuedo came from psuedo-HDV. Chris is saying that the
camera is NOT following the HDV **STANDARD**. For the rest it
is all HDV (just a term). It is simply not using the HDV standard
since that came out AFTER the camera. No "shame" in that!

Personally I don't want MPEG2 for HD (which is what HDV is). So
I'm really hoping that if they went some sort of HD route they
resolved it differently. I'm hoping Canon's presense in the HDV
world is for their lower range of products whenever they move
into HD.... then again I'm probably betting on the wrong thing.

Only two days?
 

hello,
still two days and the reduction in price on the ends

what we will see ?

nothing
xl2
hl1

Francesco

XL1t ?
XL1s2 ?

:)

hdv-hl1s16/9/1080/24/p/@/...


0 ,0
\___/

You guys are convinced there'll be a major announcement immediately after the rebate expires? Is that what history teaches us?

"You guys are convinced there'll be a major announcement immediately after the rebate expires?"

Come on Chris, this is the XL2 WISH list, isn't it?
:)


"Is that what history teaches us?"

Good point.
Do you care to jog our memories?
How long was it between the time that the XL1 rebate expired and the XL1s was announced? Does anyone remember?

I think a few weeks is to be expected.
Conveniently, Canon is one of the main sponsors at DV Expo East which starts two weeks after the rebate expires.
Seems like the perfect opportunity to show off a new camera.


-Luis

The announcement was made a few weeks ago, but it's been in lock down at an undisclosed location, It will to be made known to the general public just prior to the election. Don't you guys know anything?

Barry

"You guys are convinced there'll be a major announcement immediately after the rebate expires?"

Do you know something that we don't know?


;-) HeHEheheHE ;-)

Ok Canon, this is July 1st. Where is it???

As I wrote in the other thread:

======================
As explained time and time again NOTHING IS SURE until
Canon decides to announce something. It is as easy as that.
Everything else is complete speculation or just bogus and you
should treat it as such.

Yes, the rebate expiring is a good indication. BUT, as has been
said time and time again in this thread the announcement for
the XL1S happened *mid* July, two weeks after the rebate
expired.

So if (and that IS a big if!) something would happen shortly your
best bet is in two weeks give or take a week.

Now please don't take my word as fact (because it isn't, I know
as much as the rest does) and for all I know there could be no
replacement at all or if there is one it might be announced in
time for Christmas.

WHO KNOWS.

Don't get hung up by any dates. Yes, a film studio will announce
the exact date of a movie months and months in advance. Canon
doesn't with its camera's so stop expecting an announcement
when people are just speculating about it!
======================

So let's just wait till they announce something. Okay?