No Frame mode for broadcast? AAAAHHH! Why?

John Threat · March 15th, 2003, 10:15 AM

The debate was centered on wether to use Frame mode for Film Transfers.

THe prevailing theory is to NOT shoot frame mode for film transfers for fear of a loss of resolution.

Brian Turner · March 15th, 2003, 10:11 PM

I've shot for broadcast with frame mode ( almost 100% of the time, actually) & have seen it go to broadcast & I wet myself! It was looking very fine & "filmy" And as far as what I've read on this post about the car races shot at frame mode...I'd see no problem as long as you track your subject well. With my old Canon Optura, it shoots progressive scan in ALL shutter speeds. If you can track a moving target & keep it framed, you can shoot pro/scan at 1/8 second & it looks great. I understand the XL1s will do the same? Pro/scan in the slow shutters as well?

And...if anyone knows of the XL2? Will there be one? I'm waiting to get the XL1s but the XL2? 24P? Sorry, but I've been in the dark.

Michael Rosenberger · April 12th, 2003, 01:18 PM

We shoot our whole show in frame mode. It has been accepted by Fox Sports Net, ESPN, OLN, The Outdoor Channel and local network affiliates. Never heard a comment about using frame mode and everyone thinks the quality is good.

Now, I don't regularly air on those stations, but everything I have submitted has been accepted after technical review.

Times are changing and as has been said 1000's of times since the introduction of DV, what is considered broadcast has more to do with how you put something together and what the content is more than what it is shot on. My old producer always said "Content is king for viewers. They don't get half of what we do to make it quality, nor do they care"

The war in Iraq coverage is a prime example. Peter Arnett did a behind the scenes piece and showed what equipment he was using. 3 Xl-1s cameras and a Sony PD150, all transmitted by satellite phone. Cool stuff! (and much of the footage being shot is in frame mode for easier compression and transfer.)

Here is a summary article on the changing of technology and broadcast.
http://www.ojr.org/ojr/bergman/1048703210.php

Robert Knecht Schmidt · April 12th, 2003, 01:32 PM

Great post, Michael, thanks!

John Threat · April 13th, 2003, 04:37 AM

It's fine for broadcast.
It's not fine for film transfers.

Michael Rosenberger · April 13th, 2003, 01:37 PM

One thing to think about is there are not many people that have systems that edit in progressive mode. Even though you might shoot in frame mode you'll most likely edit and output via 60i, so we aren't "really" doing progressive. That might account for or add to those stuttering anomolies as well.

And as was mentioned before, the XL-1S does not shoot true progressive mode and does loose some resolution. It isn't visibly noticeable, but technically it is there.

Also as mentioned, unless specifically asked for you would always shoot interlaced video. We use frame mode for effect, but almost all other shows and spots we shoot are interlaced.

So if the question is just "is frame mode acceptable for broadcast," then the answer is yes. If the question is "should I shoot in frame mode," then the answer is most likely no.

James Emory · April 13th, 2003, 03:57 PM

One point that I did not see in these posts is that if you are shooting frame as a b roll camera on a news story and the principal is Beta or anything that's not frame, you guessed it, they're not going to match. Also, if you are shooting breaking news in frame with no intention (independently) of intercutting with Beta or anything else and producers like what you have and want to intercut your footage it's not going to match. Of course if it's great footage it probably won't matter anyway.

Daniel H. Buchmann · April 14th, 2003, 09:00 PM

Hey all,
I shoot in frame mode every so often for broadcast on cable television, and most of the stuff is very fast moving subject matter such as paintballers and rollerbladers. Maybe I just don't have a keen enough eye yet for picking out discrepancies in the video I'm shooting but it looks pretty darn good to me during the broadcast. just my 2 cents.

March 15th, 2003, 10:11 PM	#17
Brian Turner Tourist Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Overland Park, KS Posts: 1	I've shot for broadcast with frame mode ( almost 100% of the time, actually) & have seen it go to broadcast & I wet myself! It was looking very fine & "filmy" And as far as what I've read on this post about the car races shot at frame mode...I'd see no problem as long as you track your subject well. With my old Canon Optura, it shoots progressive scan in ALL shutter speeds. If you can track a moving target & keep it framed, you can shoot pro/scan at 1/8 second & it looks great. I understand the XL1s will do the same? Pro/scan in the slow shutters as well? And...if anyone knows of the XL2? Will there be one? I'm waiting to get the XL1s but the XL2? 24P? Sorry, but I've been in the dark. __________________ Brian with an Eye

April 12th, 2003, 01:18 PM	#18
Michael Rosenberger Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Surprise, Arizona Posts: 143	We shoot our whole show in frame mode. It has been accepted by Fox Sports Net, ESPN, OLN, The Outdoor Channel and local network affiliates. Never heard a comment about using frame mode and everyone thinks the quality is good. Now, I don't regularly air on those stations, but everything I have submitted has been accepted after technical review. Times are changing and as has been said 1000's of times since the introduction of DV, what is considered broadcast has more to do with how you put something together and what the content is more than what it is shot on. My old producer always said "Content is king for viewers. They don't get half of what we do to make it quality, nor do they care" The war in Iraq coverage is a prime example. Peter Arnett did a behind the scenes piece and showed what equipment he was using. 3 Xl-1s cameras and a Sony PD150, all transmitted by satellite phone. Cool stuff! (and much of the footage being shot is in frame mode for easier compression and transfer.) Here is a summary article on the changing of technology and broadcast. http://www.ojr.org/ojr/bergman/1048703210.php __________________ Michael Rosenberger Sure I'll shoot your wedding, for two million dollars.

April 12th, 2003, 01:32 PM	#19
Robert Knecht Schmidt Wrangler Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 1,933	Great post, Michael, thanks! __________________ All the best, Robert K S Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| The best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

April 13th, 2003, 01:37 PM	#21
Michael Rosenberger Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Surprise, Arizona Posts: 143	One thing to think about is there are not many people that have systems that edit in progressive mode. Even though you might shoot in frame mode you'll most likely edit and output via 60i, so we aren't "really" doing progressive. That might account for or add to those stuttering anomolies as well. And as was mentioned before, the XL-1S does not shoot true progressive mode and does loose some resolution. It isn't visibly noticeable, but technically it is there. Also as mentioned, unless specifically asked for you would always shoot interlaced video. We use frame mode for effect, but almost all other shows and spots we shoot are interlaced. So if the question is just "is frame mode acceptable for broadcast," then the answer is yes. If the question is "should I shoot in frame mode," then the answer is most likely no. __________________ Michael Rosenberger Sure I'll shoot your wedding, for two million dollars.

April 13th, 2003, 03:57 PM	#22
James Emory Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,892	Frame for broadcast One point that I did not see in these posts is that if you are shooting frame as a b roll camera on a news story and the principal is Beta or anything that's not frame, you guessed it, they're not going to match. Also, if you are shooting breaking news in frame with no intention (independently) of intercutting with Beta or anything else and producers like what you have and want to intercut your footage it's not going to match. Of course if it's great footage it probably won't matter anyway.

March 15th, 2003, 10:15 AM	#16
John Threat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York Posts: 322	The debate was centered on wether to use Frame mode for Film Transfers. THe prevailing theory is to NOT shoot frame mode for film transfers for fear of a loss of resolution.

April 13th, 2003, 04:37 AM	#20
John Threat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York Posts: 322	It's fine for broadcast. It's not fine for film transfers.

April 14th, 2003, 09:00 PM	#23
Daniel H. Buchmann Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Posts: 57	Hey all, I shoot in frame mode every so often for broadcast on cable television, and most of the stuff is very fast moving subject matter such as paintballers and rollerbladers. Maybe I just don't have a keen enough eye yet for picking out discrepancies in the video I'm shooting but it looks pretty darn good to me during the broadcast. just my 2 cents.