Magma + Intensity Pro + Laptop: which laptop?
 

Hopefully David Newman can pitch in on this.

What laptop specs - and which laptop models - have been tested to work with Intensity Pro + Magma box?

Based on my experience with semi-mobile desktop versions, I tend to think that 3Ghz Core 2 Duo would be required for on-the-fly 2:3 pulldown removal and Cineform 24p capture without issues, yes?

Thanks.

Specs
 

Hi Alex,
I have the setup nailed.I have a sony AR series laptop.2 gigs memory,2.4 gigahertz Core2duo processor,expresscard slot,2 HDDs and it works like a charm.I upgraded the CPU from 1.6 Ghz as that was dropping frames but 2.4 flies.I think Cineform recommend 2.4 or 2.6 on their website.I can record up to film scan 2 now when connected to mains.One quirck and I am not sure what is to blame but when I have attempted to use my Xantrex portable power supply (A big battery basically) I have had the rare jittery performance so perhaps it is sensitive to power supply.I also experienced the odd blue screens of death when my power supply temporarily cut out and shut down power to the magma chassis.This was not the Xantrex though.If you are not going to shoot with a portable power supply and the complications that brings then I can confirm that the setup is terrific!!I think on the cineform blog it is stated that cineform competes favourably against HDCAM SR or indeed outperforms it.This setup is almost equal to a little Wafian I suppose.
I record using an SR11 and will be going out for a shoot on Friday.The quality is astonishing - I think it beats cameras five times the price when recorded to cineform High - of course just my personal opinion - I was in the market for a prosumer camera to shoot music videos and was ready to plonk down the cash for an Xdcam ex.I saw some sample vids of the SR11 and I was convinced.
The whole setup is not spontaneous though and it takes a wee while to setup.Boot up,connect everything, attach letus mini etc.But it is worth it.I have also had the misfortune of bumping the Magma expresscard while it was running and incurred a blue screen of death so I have improvised and applied velcro so that I cannot pull it out.It comes out too easily otherwise.Of course for portability it sure does the biz but I cannot wait for the Cineform portable recorder.I will perhaps post some pics of my setup.Perhaps also post a cineform capture to ilusttrate that one - it works and two that it is worth the effort.Hope these insights help.
Henry

Would a high end Macbook Pro on Boot Camp perform the same? There's no need for the wait for Quad-core Mobile Penryn? What about MJPG? I'm highly interested as I want my next laptop to be 100% capable of mobile compressed Intensity Pro use.

Thanks Henry, very interesting! What's the bus speed on your laptop?

I remember using 2.something Ghz Xeons and they could *not* keep up with real-time 2:3 pulldown and Cineform capture via HDLink and Intensity in mini-desktop configuration.

Alex
 

Here ya go

Laptop specs
 

Bus speed hmmmmm.Do you mean the front side bus?If so it is 800 mhz. I upgraded to a T7700.One thing that I found really helped is to do a couple of tweaks to your system.I am primarily a musician and there are tweaks in audio land that one can do to get the best performance out of your system.Windows is made to do a lot of things that are not needed on a dedicated workstation so you may want to look at turning some of the processes off.There is a magazine called Sound on Sound and they have a website.They have an old article about tweaking XP that you may find useful.Mainly audio but I am sure video benefits as well.
Hope it's okay to place the link.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep0...ician_0906.htm

I was actually able to get my lame 1.6 ghz to record to film scan a few times without dropping frames after the tweaks but it was too intermittent and unreliable but the tweaks can help.Best to you.Henry

Jack
 

I am sure that the high end macs will do just fine.My laptop is not cutting edge any more and it works fine.Another cool thing was that I could install a second HDD just for video capture so I installed a 250 GB HDD.The important bit is getting a fast enough CPU - perhaps above 2.4 ghz I am sure you will be fine.Dunno how much you can tweak a Mac but I suspect it will be more than equal to the task as long as it is current.Good luck.
Henry

Sample footage on Vimeo
 

Just to show the setup at work I threw together a few odd shots I took during my tests before I embark on shooting my music videos.Shot to Cineform High spliced in Vegas,added music and uploaded.One of the coolest advantages to recording to a laptop this way is that there is no need to transfer footage from anything.You will be basically be ready to edit as soon as you press stop in HDlink.May I say by the by that the 1920 X 1080 full HD pixel for pixel image is very,very impressive for a camera in this class.Although it has a 1/3 CMOS sensor I believe that Sony oversample ( if that is the right word) by actually using 3.8 megapixels of the 5 megapixel sensor to shoot the Full HD 16:9 Aspect ratio.Perhaps the Vimeo upload will not show how good a pic it is but I hope it may hint at it.

http://www.vimeo.com/1082016

Can't see it, it's a private video. Make it public and also allow us to download the original for full-sized quality assessment.

Henry, thanks for the image!

Vimeo: can't see it, says Protected, sorry.

What version of Intensity drivers do you have?

What version/release of Cineform?

Also, do you think your setup would work with Intensity *Pro*?

Also, about the video: in my own earlier setups with slower processors, video looked fine BUT audio would slowly go out of sync, which became noticeable on 2min and longer continuous clips. So one can't only judge by the video quality, it seems. I assume you do not have the same problem.

Alex and Jack
 

Sorry about the privacy setting on Vimeo.First video posted so just made it public.You can now download the video as well now Jack and Alex.

I have the latest Intensity drivers.1.8.2 I think.Ooops just went to the website and found out that they have just released Version 2.Anyway,I also have the latest version of Neo 4K.Used to be on Neo HD but upgraded to 4K as I blow up my images to 2k and above for time lapse vids from my DSLR.There were some audio sync problems until the latest upgrade that I did a few weeks ago but have had no such issue since upgrading to the current drivers and Cineform version.Will test the latest intensity drivers after my shoot.

I see no reason why it wouldn't work with the pro.The pro just adds analog input and output I think so performance wise it should be identical.

Will add some more videos to Vimeo after the weekend to show how it performs in the field.Going to a National park here on Friday so hope to have some nice scenery.Will also try to upload some unedited footage in Full HD but cineform produces large files so if any of you have a way to host such files without conversion let me know.Will be doing green screen work as well so will post some shots from there too in the next couple of weeks.
Best wishes.Henry

Vimeo can't accept raw Cineform but you can encode in 1920x1080 to give us a better perspective on how much better it is to AVCHD or HDV.

From stuff I've seen so far, it's much sharper than my HC7 raw footage. Makes your SR camera look like a Panavision Genesis compared to my Camera which is more Z1U quality...

Wish something like this quality would be a Global Shutter which would eliminate warping in Green Screening.

My application for this would be ideal for a gaming (company) podcast where you can capture awesome Green Chroma keys and footage from the 360 (over HDMI) and the PS3 (HDMI on the debug, Component on the retail) gaming consoles.

Henry, am I correct that your laptop is about $3.2K new, plus Magma box about $750?

So with the Cineform and Intensity, you probably spent about $5K altogether?

I just arised a sneaking suspicion that NTSC 60i will be harder to encode than PAL 50i on a Laptop. Maybe the wait for lower priced Penryn Quad-cores should be a good one.

Alex
 

I am in the UK and the laptop cost £800 + £ 200 CPU upgrade.The intensity cost £160.The Magma chassis cost £ 450.So on the setups hardware side about £ 1700.Obviously once you add a cineform license it's a bit more but reasonable in my mind.Dunno the conversion to US.$ 4000?I have tried but failed to find a portable high bandwidth recorder in this price range and failed.So I decided to build my own.Of course the Cineform recorder and Nanoflash will change cost to performance ratio but you still need to buy flash and also battery power.This investment will still work in a studio environment though.The one advantage of using this setup is that you can go as high as Film Scan 2 which could have a bandwith of something like 24 megabytes a second I think( 192 megabits per second?) so if you want ultimate quality ( Cineform calls it overkill ) then you can with a desktop or laptop that is up to spec.Don't think the portable versions will do that but hey Cineform is pretty outstanding on the high setting so I am nit-picking.Henry

Hi Jack
 

Jack.Cannot alleviate the suspicion for you I am afraid.All I can say is my laptop flies with Cineform up to Film Scan two which is processor intensive and it has room to breathe.You may have to ask Cineform whether it takes that much more to encode 60i.You can wait I guess but I need to shoot now.The Cineform recorder is coming,Convergent Designs XDR,so is Scarlet as is Nanoflash and in a few months perhaps it would have been better to have waited.From my perspective if I can get it to work now and it can earn me money now...well - you know the rest.

More Footage with bittorent file of original footage - 2.1 Gigs
 

Some more footage from yesterday.The swan at the beginning just jumps at you in full res on my Bravia full HD monitor.I think the expense and effort of HDMI is worth it.

http://www.vimeo.com/1095616

And I have also Added a zipped torrent that includes 2.1 gigabytes of unedited Full HD 1920 X 1080 files for your critical analysis.Let me know what you think

You can still encode to Vimeo in 1920x1080 and it will downscale the web HD version, but your original WMV will remain untouched at 1920 and free to be downloaded. I don't have Cineform so can you re-upload to Vimeo a 1080p version? (In video options, there is a "replace file" option.)

Jack, Cineform provides *free* player that plays out any Cineform-encoded file, as I understand.

Yes, but I do not wish to register any information to download it. I expect to download a file and simply play it.

Jack
 

I am sure that Vimeo does only 1280 X 720 and in my mind there is an obvious difference compared to the pixel for pixel 1920 X 1080.How obvious is subjective but the compression to other formats from cineform loses some quality as well.
To register for Cineform player is relatively simple.But if it hassles you and we can find an alternative to host the files in Full res - let me know.

I thought that the torrent route is best as the files do not get transcoded in any way.Can do Vimeo downscaled but that won't give you a clear indication of the performance of the codec in certain circumstances.I have 11 files form the other day 4 at the sea with waves.And the swans swimming around which are really good at full res.Waves I am sure would test most codecs to the hilt and when I have downscaled to other codecs to upload the quality is greatly diminished and the usual artifacts appear.I also have some leaves - a different clip from the other day and the detail is very good.
Perhaps I shall upload the unedited clips to Vimeo.

By testing, I found that *intense traffic* taxes the codecs more than anything else I could throw at the cameras, including waterfalls etc.

Just make sure you're zoomed in so the car's length fills the frame.

Manhattan street corner traffic does it. Cars moving in different directions; people going back and forth; multi-directional movements with variable speeds within a frame.

V1U's MPEG25 (? I think) codec falls apart with the usual blocky artifacts very quickly on this kind of footage.

A more elegant and cheaper solution to the expensive Magma is if you get a Thinkpad laptop (I just got a T61p top of the line for $1300 (T9300 2.5 and Quadro FX 570m), one of the few laptops "certfied" by Avid) is the Advanced Dock that lenovo makes for their laptops.

http://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-ThinkPa.../dp/B000BTN1EC

It can house a PCI express card like intensity and has ultrabay slot for popping in a 2nd hard drive.
I haven't actually tried it myself but I'm serioiusly considering it. And since the laptop locks into the dock it would be more "portable" than carrying around the Magma, a second hard drive, power cables, etc.

Eric, if this works, it'd really be way better than Magma.

Interestingly, it still would be about the same size and weight as my current setup with microATX mobo + Core2Duo 3Ghz in the slim InWin case. (and it seems like my cost is significantly lower, too.)

Granted, your setup has laptop screen while mine has none, relying on the external monitor instead.

But I still would need a large screen to monitor the camera focus.

Alex you may not need an external monitor, the resolution on the Lenovo T61p is 1920x1200 (this is what sold me on the laptop), granted it is only a 15.4 inch screen.

How would I feed that laptop with the HDMI signal out of camera?

My current setup is a HDTV that accepts both HDMI signal from Intensity's HDMI Out loop; and VGA computer signal on the other port, to display PC screen. Both are displayed full-screen. Since it's a TV, it removes 2:3 pulldown from my HDMI signal on-the-fly.

Current widescreen monitor size is 20". I'd actually want a Larger, not smaller screen, since there are practical shooting situations when you need to see it from across the room etc.; and even at short distance, it'd be better to have a 24" monitor with pixel-for-pixel mapping. (Looking for that now actually.)

You do not need to downscale. You can upload a 1920x1080 WMV and the web player will process and downscale to 720p and the original 1920x1080 WMV will be available for download untouched. You could also try 2-pass VBR encoding to increase quality while keeping filesizes low. Also keep in mind that 1080 needs at a minimum of 8Mbps and the optimum is in the tens of megabits. If you insist on 720 for Vimeo, can you re-encode the same video in 1080 WMV and ask Chris Hurd to host it here?

Here's one of my 1920x1080 uploads to Vimeo: http://www.vimeo.com/790103
As you can see, it is 720 on the web player and you can still download the original full 1920x1080 version.

1920 X 1080
 

Jack you are a legend.Will do that in the next couple days then.I also own the HC7 and it does take a pretty pic - looking at your vids.British Columbia is very beautiful.Best to you.
Henry

I just saw your most recent video and I still see you're using a bitrate below 8mbps, Vegas supports direct 2-pass WMV encoding at either quality or bitrate medians. No external process is required to create 2-pass, both passes occur in the same render.

Also, as I said on Vimeo, try to find a high-end de-interlacer like Magic Bullet before editing to process into progressive files to edit with.

...or, use a progressive camera to acquire images in the first place.

Sony V1U is inexpensive and works great.

There's no logical reason why this would not work, but you really need to bear in mind just how bloody huge the advanced dock is in comparison to the rather svelte Magma chassis. Another thing to bear in mind is that the dock is VERY fussy about the graphics cards it works with. While this may be an OS issue or not relevant to other expansion cards, it could equally be down to the foibles of the dock.

Try before you buy would be my advice.

Now, (sorry if I posted this for the nth time) I have a Quad core Q6700 and I still drop frames in MJPEG with my Intensity Pro... Is Cineform more efficent with high-end processors? And would it prevent dropped frames for my newly upgraded quad system?

Jack - I am surprised as that is a good CPU.Perhaps any of these suggestions may help.Forgive me if I state the obvious.Do the optimisations I suggested earlier in the thread.Make sure the HDD can keep up with the data rate.Make sure you have the latest BM design drivers.If you need to clean unistal everything before upgrading.Get Cineform definitely - it is multi thread aware and will use all cores on encoding.I haven't had a dropped frame for months now - not one.I am using my laptop just for video though so if you have other stuff that causes conflicts loaded it may impede performance i.e virus scanners etc.

A 2.33GHz Core 2 Duo will perform well with CineForm at 'high' quality level. A 2.66GHz Core 2 has more than enough horsepower for just any situation the codec will have to deal with using Intensity Pro.

Your Q6700 will give phenomenal CineForm performance, although I have to admit extreme surprise that your system is dropping frames with Blackmagic MJPEG.

Me too, The only possible ways this could make sense is My Vista memory score is only 4.8 while the rest is 5.8-5.9 or my hard drive is VERY fragmented or I should use a seperate capture drive.

And I think the latest drivers might be causing problems instead of fixing them. I haven't yet done a test capture in 720p but HDMI 1080i went a minute with no dropped frames on 1.8.4. It only took 20 seconds to drop frames in 720 on 2.0 software and so far, no one from Blackmagic is willing to reply to my support requests.

I wish I could get Cineform, but we've blown our budget on the upgrade, I also wish it would be easier to purchase Cineform for instance like the "Steam" digital distribution technique where purchasing is all managed by the software. Cineform should launch a similar platform to get their software out to more people.

And it'll be $170 for a hardware PCI SATA RAID and 2 250GB Seagate HDDs. Cheaper than Cineform...

Update: It must be a hard drive issue or software issue cause I just captured 1min of HDMI 1080i footage again in 1.8.4 on a defragmented system drive and it never dropped a single frame. I'll try 720p60 again later.

720p results: still dropping frames... Even on 1.8.4. This time it's 5 seconds before it quits on the system drive.

Revised results: Finally, installing a separate capture drive via SATA solved this problem. I went 1:35 without dropouts. The 20 second one was to the same drive but interfaced through USB 2.0, making it slower.

Switched to EX1, and selling my complete mobile HDMI HD capture computer + Intensity card + HDTV monitor in Pelican rolling case for $999.

See here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/private-c...i-monitor.html

I finally got around to getting a Thinkpad Advanced Dock and a Intensity card and successfull captured some footage using cineform HDLink. Running Vista 64.

So for $170 at the Lenovo outlet, this seems like very economical solution.

It doesn't really make the laptop setup that much bigger, adds about 7 inches behind the laptop.

Eric, do you have a link? I found it at 2x the price you quoted.

Also, this is only for IBM/Lenovo Thinkpad laptops, correct?

Which Intensity card did you use - would it work with Decklink HD Extreme? What laptop specs would support it?

It's in the outlet part of Lenovo, goto main lenovo webpage, click on "outlet products" on the bottom left. Here is direct link
ThinkPad Advanced Dock: CA250310U Lenovo Outlet

Yes only thinkpad models. The only limitation seems to be half length PCI card, and 1x speed wise. Not sure on the specs of the card you mentioned. Oh and limit of 50 watts drawn power wise. But that is probably not a problem with these kind of cards.

I got around to doing more experiments, the only problem I've run into is I can't boot the computer with the camera plugged in. So I have to wait for it boot up, then plug in the hdmi. Minor problem though.