Cineform and Avid... What's in the Works?
 

David alluded to work in progress with every NLE, including Avid.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/cineform-...-neo-4k-2.html

Can this be elaborated on at all?

Thanks very much.

Nothing to announce yet.

Just to bump this, is there any update on CineForm/Avid compatibility? What is the best way to transcode at the moment?

We hope to support Avid more tightly in the future, but we are not totally in control of the schedule. In the mean time MetaFuze (from Avid) can convert CineForm files for use in Media Composer.

Apparently LUT's cannot be applied within Metafuze, as of this time?

And a couple of other questions, if I may:
1- Transcoding of the Cineform DI seems to take much longer in Metafuze than within Avid Media Composer. Is this normal?
2- The Cineform DI is 10-bit. Yet Metafuze does not allow a 10-bit option in the compression format choice. Will this be changed?

Bill, we're actually going to be looking more at MetaFuze in the coming few weeks. Consistent with your experience, ours also shows that it is slow. We know why, but it's a MetaFuze issue. We'll be experimenting to see if we can work around it to improve performance.

If you have Active Metadata applied on CineForm clips it can be flattened in when converting through MetaFuze - to whatever your destination format is - if you have the First Light application and the CineForm color database installed on the machine doing the conversion.

Thanx for answering, David. I was hoping there was a way to define an LUT within Firstlight, then applying that LUT across some files during transcoding with Metafuze. Is that a possibility, at some time in the future?

The LUT should be applied, even in MetaFuze. A few months ago that may not have worked with MOV wrapped files, now all CineForm source will develop as First Light has set the image up.

MetaFuze is nice but is there really no support at all for anything other than 24fps and 24fps drop frame? Seems like a rather savage drawback.

Agreed..........

That's really unfortunate. I'm assuming this is an Avid limitation not a Cineform one.

Peter, it is an Avid limitation, but...we understand the next version of MetaFuze will support 10 bits. We still have to verify, but it's what we've been told. Hopefully we'll know more about this in the coming week or two.

David,

BTW, as I'm sure you know, AMA is Avid's way of opening the program to more codecs w/o requiring a transcode. Perhaps this is a way to get Avid to work directly with Cineform files?

It seems that Avid is less set on protecting DNxHD from competition than it was in the past. And working directly w/ Avid w/o a transcode would really open up doors even futher for Cineform in the professional post world.

Is Avid working directly w/ Cineform is a real future possibility?

Yes it is a real possibility, we are working directly with Avid engineering to make this happen.

That's the best news I've heard since I heard about FirstLight...great stuff, David.

Avid and cineform
 

Hi David,

Any new updates on Avid Media Composer and Cineform working together?

Thanks,

Simon

I'm wondering the same. Thanks for any info..

Guys, I'm sorry we don't have an update for you at present.

Is there something we can "ask" AVID for on your behalf? Some of have some relationships w/ a few people there and are active on AVID's user forum.

P.S. In the meantime, transcoding Cineform .MOV's to DNxHD 10-bit does work, right?

Peter, transcoding from CineForm MOV to DNxHD through MetaFuze should work, although it is unfortunately slow. due to the architecture of MetaFuze and the relatively slow performance of DNxHD.

If you're on a Mac you have another option which is to download/install the DNxHD QT codecs from the Avid site. Once you've done that you can transcode using Compressor to DNxHD MOV files. You'll still have to ingest using MetaFuze, but in this case MetaFuze will rewrap from DNxHD MOV to MXF which is faster than when it has to also transcode.

I hope this helps, and I hope we'll have a better solution before too long!

David,

Can TMPGEnc Xpress 4.0 to do the CF to DNxHD transcode?

I'm sorry, I don't know anything about TMPEnc's and its Avid compatibility.

David,

Would it be possible to get a small test file from Cineform that's the same resolution used for Cineform + Intensity card HDMI capture from an HDV camera?

I have a feeling there may be some other alternatives for PC DNxHD transcoding that might be easier and faster than using MetaFuze. I'm willing to bang my head against this problem, but I'd need a CF file.

Thanks much.

Mpeg Streamclip will convert Cinneform to DNxHD perfectly. It will do 8bit or 10bit DNxHD, and it does it for free. It will even do it in batch mode.

Perrone,

A few ?'s:

1) Have you been able to fast import the Streamclip DNxHD .MOV's into MC? I would think you should be able to as long as 601/709 levels is chosen.

2) Have you tried importing CF .MOV files directly into MC-- essentially have Avid do the transcode? I also think this "should" work as long as the Cineform .MOV codec is installed on the computer. FWIU, as long as Quicktime Player can play the file on the computer, MC can import it.

3) Have you been able to do the file conversion using just the CF player-only version of the codec? This would allow other MC installs to do the transcode w/o having a full-blown Cineform package.

Thanks very much!

Let's see.

1. I don't remember being able to fast import the mpeg streamclip files, but I think I only tried it once. I was doing this when I had the Avid trial. I no longer have that.

2. Yes, I did import CF files straight into Avid and let it transcode.

3. I do not have anything but the CF reader. I've never bought Cineform.

You can download some Cineform RAW files from the SI2K to play with:

Silicon Imaging

That should allow you to check the conversion into Avid.

Thanks Perrone! It sounded like Cineform was making the import into Avid sound more difficult than it actually shoule be, and I think that is the case. Of course having the ability to work w/ the files directly w/o a transcode would be best :).

I can try the Cineform RAW files, but if I do a capture to an Intesity card via the HDMI of my HV-20, the resulting Cineform file isn't going to be RAW. So while the RAW test would be helpful, it wouldn't be conclusive, FWICT.

It's the same codec.

Perrone,

You may very well be corrcet, but I don't see how that's possible.

RAW is different from RGB and is also different from YUV. They are different ways of encoding an image.

HDMI (which I would be caputuring from) is YUV 4:2:2 8-bit, and Cineform's codec used to encode the signal is YUV 4:2:2 10-bit. There is no RAW in the equation, except for what initially comes off the camera's Bayer mask sensor. But the codec never gets to touch that b/c the camera internally converts it to YUV before it hits the HDMI port.

Perrone is correct. We handle all sources equally, RAW for not, all get the image development properties, and the calling application is never aware of the internal formatting.

Sure you all are very busy. Just wondering if Media Composer 5 and Cineform have been tested together?

FWIU, MC5 is supposed to natively read QT files, regardless of format/codec.

At CineForm we have not yet tested, but we have confirmation from beta testers of MC v5 that it plays great with CineForm files, including Active Metadata. We have a meeting with Avid later in the week and can provide more details afterwards.

David, thanks for the update and just wondering if there is any new info.

Peter, we don't have any big news updates. But a couple things:

1. In addition to the beta customer testing referenced below, Avid has done some of their own testing to confirm compatibility.

2. I got the sense from Avid at our NAB meeting that CineForm compatibility in MC was a heavily requested feature, so they seem motivated to make sure it works well. Avid has requested our help in testing through the remainder of time before v5 formally ships in June. We now have MC v5 licenses at CineForm and will begin testing shortly on both Win and Mac.

Initial Avid testing - thumbs up!
 

We have done preliminary testing of Neo3D with Media Composer v5 (on Windows) through the new QT interface. It all seems to work pretty well. Performance is reasonably good, and all the Active Metadata controls in First Light for image development and for 3D adjustments seem to work great. We tested both AVI and MOV files successfully.

We haven't tested on Mac yet - we'll get to this in the near future.

That's amazing! Very good news. Thanks so much!

I'm under an NDA but I'll just say you guys will be very happy with performance on a Mac.

MC 4/5 and Cineform files:
 

Hello,

I just bought MC 4 and have many cineform files. When I imported the cineform files into an Avid project, Avid converted them to the Avid Codec. I chose 220x since it is 10-bit. Everything works great but the files are quite large.

Will I lose a lot quality-wise if I go for a lower Avid Codec which is only 8-bit? What are other cineform users that use Avid Media Composer using as a format when they import cineform files?

Also, when MC 5 comes out, I understand cineform files will work fine thanks to the testing Cineform has done. But will it still require transcoding to an Avid codec?

Thanks,

Simon