Neo Scene + Vegas 8 for Better Color Correction on HDV Source?
 

Present workflow: capture HDV in Vegas 8 from Canon XH-A1 (24f). Edit native captured clips directly on timeline. Color correct within Vegas, mostly with Magic Bullet Looks. Render to SD MPEG2 for delivery on DVD.

Problem: heavy color correction/grading sometimes introduces color banding, 'blockiness', and color distortion in portions of image.

Contemplated workflow: capture HDV as above, convert to Cineform AVI with NeoScene, then color correct and grade on AVI clips, and render as above.

Question: Will this single change in my workflow result in a better looking color corrected/graded product? In other words, will the Cineform AVI hold up better to aggressive color grading than did the native HDV source material?

Note: I'm rendering only once, as stated, so I don't need the lossless attribute for multiple renders. I ask because of the expanded "headroom" of 4:2:2 colorspace touted by the Cineform AVI, and I've seen anecdotal evidence (textual) of this actually resulting in better looking rendered footage. Will this make a difference specifically when using Vegas 8?

Thanks,
Steve

Try for yourself. However your color banding and blockiness in your DVD is not something 4:2:2 upsampling helps with, that is all due to you down stream encoding. While CineForm helps solve many things in post, a bad download encode can still waste many of your efforts. Try a different encoding software, bit-rates etc. The better your download encoding the more you will get out of using a CineForm product.

Thanks for the quick reply. I had a hunch that "try for yourself" would be the ultimate suggestion, which I'll follow. Looks like a minimum effort to test this.

Query on terminology: "download encoding" = render/compression out of NLE?

Thanks again.

Steve

I meant to type "downstream encoding"

Are you referring to the words in the post, "down stream encoding"? If so, that would be the encoding after editing, color correcting, etc.

A good encoder you can try is TMPGEnc 4 XPress. This is one of the best encoders, and it will give a good idea if encoding is the problem. There is a 14 day free trial:
TMPGEnc - Download: TMPGEnc 4.0 XPress Downloads

Also, I would suggest using your current encoder to re-encode the timeline without making corrections and changes.

Other encoders that give good results you may or may not have are Procoder, CCE (Cinema Craft), and the encoder with Adobe Encore (don't remember the name of it).

Try encoding tests at about 7500 constant bit rate to eliminate variable rate issues your encoder may have.

It is also possible that the encoder is causing problems, but Cineform could still help by providing a "cleaner" intra-frame source. I would think that timeline rendering in native mpeg could deteriorate the quality, as well. But all said, I'm not an expert.

Many thanks for your suggestions, Jack. I don't harbor any illusions that downstream encoding to MPEG-2 for delivery on DVD will do my images any favors, regardless of what encoder I use. Vegas 8, for instance, utilizes the MainConcept encoder, which I understand is quite good (not as good as others you mention? I have no idea.) Yes, I always encode CBR at about 8000.

But note the thrust of my original post focused on what I could do to my raw footage BEFORE any downstream encoding artifacts are introduced (that is, after color grading and correction) that would reap overall image improvements. For instance, color grading of my native HDV clips ON THE TIMELINE can produce odd color distortions that I see ON THE TIMELINE if I push hard. To be clear, I can see these distortions on my editing timeline.

I query whether editing Cineform AVI's generated from my source HDV footage instead would be more tolerant of the grading, i.e., not easily resulting in the color artifacts, and that would survive nicely after downstream encoding. Suggestion seems to be: just do it and see what happens!

In my ignorance, I may be asking for a solution that is best addressed by choice of downstream encoder, as your and David's posts suggest, given inherent limitations of my source footage. Still, if I can eke out better quality, I'd want to know.

Thanks,
Steve

(Adobe Encore uses the Main Concept encoder, I believe, as well.)

I think that an intermediate file would give you improvements, whether it be Cineform, SheerVideo, or simply setting the timeline (if possible in Vegas) to uncompressed before rendering and exporting.

I am setting up a new system for a particular project, and I have similar requirements as you seem to, that is, extensive color grading and special effects with a minimum of quality loss before final output.

At this point I have concluded that Cineform Prospect HD, with the new "First Light" capabilities, might be perfect. (I don't know if it will be necessary to do special effects and color grading in a 4:4:4 format or not.)

We have special looks for different sequences, and we are using more than one camera, so the idea of doing non-destructive color grading and matching (which it seems "First Light" might do, though we will know next week) before final rendering and output is very appealing.

Hopefully, "First Light" will also let us go back and batch apply a changed preset to clips used in a sequence.

Neo Scene Capture and Conversion Problems with Vista?
 

I've been trying to evaluate Neo Scene, for a couple of updates now, on my Vista 64 bit system. So far, I have not been able to get it to work. I evaluated a version of Aspect prior to this attempt, which was un-installed before the installation of Neo Scene. I've attached some screen shots below of what happening. When I try to convert a 5d mark ii file, Neo Scene quits giving me the "HD Link.exe has stopped working" message. When I try to capture HDV footage, the application begins to capture and then immediately stops giving me the "invalid pointer" error. Does anyone have any suggestions to fix this problem?

Thanks,
Chad Jones

Here are my system specs:

Dell Core i7 920
Vista 64 bit
4 GB Ram
Radeon 4850
CS4

What exactly is qtmux? It looks like something that was part of a software or codec package that you installed. Try uninstalling it. Or run GSpot and see what you can find out about qtmux.

Sound like there may have been an old Aspect HD setting that is throwing off Neo Scene. You should not be using QTMux, with is for producing MOVs on the output.

Try this:

1) Uninstall Neo Scene.
2) Open RegEdit
3) Delete everything in HKEY_CURRENT_USER/Software/CineForm
4) Reinstall Neo Scene
5) Try again.

Chad,


I have the Dell xps with the same processor. I had huge problems capturing and hd link would not work either.

I cleared it off, got the dell guys to take out conflicting background programs and that seemed to resolve my issues. (for now at least)

It now captures with all tools and HD Link works fine. Just wrapping my my first project using cineform.

Dale
I have a Dell i7, Vista 64 currently on order.
Do you recall what sort of Dell "background" programs were causing a conflict with CF? I'm currently using Prospect HD.
I was hoping this transition was going to be smooth, but I guess it never really is.

Neo Scene causes PE3 to not start
 

I read that Neo Scene is a good tool to help edit HDV, so I downloaded the latest trial version of Neo Scene two days ago. I did a capture from my HV30 (HDV footage), opened Premiere Elements 3.0, created a project and added all of the Cineform intermediate AVI files. PE3 stopped responding after I tried to add the files. I allowed Windows to close the application and I rebooted the computer, and now PE3 will NOT start. I double click the icon, the PE3 splash screen comes up, and I immediately get a "Adobe Premiere Elements.exe stopped working" error message.

I'm using a Dell E520, Intel Core 2 Duo (2.13GHz), 2GB SDRAM and Vista Home Premium. Video is on external USB HDD.

How can I make PE3 work again???

Thanks for any help you can provide!

Ron, that is a support question. I have not heard of this as Elements is a supported application.

Robert, a bit off topic but there is a thread somewhere around here where at least one model of Dell is giving lots of grief with the esata port. At least three folks have reported issues. Two of them are unresolved, even after having hardware replaced.

I, not too long ago, found Dell lower end units to be too unreliable and got back into building my own.

I'm only posting this so that after you receive your unit you cannot say you cannot say "Why didn't anyone say something to me before!".

You may be fine, but be forwarned. If you have issues early on and can't get them resolved quickly then you should return the unit and go with something else. Good luck, hopefully yours will be fine.

David, thanks for taking the time to view these posts! I sent the inquiry to support at Cineform dot com and I'm getting help with it. BTW, other people at muvipix.com have reported similar problems with Neo Scene, but I don't know if they asked for help with it.

judder
 

I'm converting my 5D Mark II footage with Neoscene, but I get a file that judders as if it's under a strobe light. Any suggestions?

I used to own aspect HD (and removed it)

scratch that, just upgraded my video card and it works now.

Neo Scene wont recognise any file type but avchd??
 

Quick question. I recently purchased Neo Scene, and downloaded the newest version 113. But I cant seem to convert any other file type but the MTS from my HF10. I get an error saying file type not supported when I try to convert mpeg4, mt2s, mov. Am I doing somthing wrong? or does Neoscene only support MTS??

While Neo Scene doesn't support everything NEO HD does, it does support 99% of AVCHD and HDV sources. If you are having issues, please contact support. Of course, try an uninstall, then reinstall, it might fix it for you.

Neo Scene Issue
 

I have tried Uninstalling and installing it. Still it wont convert any other file but mts to avi. But on the cine form site it say it supports other formats. I know that Neo HD Supports everthing. I dont know what else i could be doing wrong. Has anyone run into an issue like this?

I need Neo Scene's functionality to fix the frame blending problem for the Canon 5DMkII, but I also use the Sony EX1, and Vegas 8.0(c). Is there a Cineform product that is complementary for both cams at once?

Neo HD version 4.0 is what you need. It is in beta now, released next week.

Confused
 

I have read the majority of this thread and I am very confused. My problem is that I have a CAnon 5D Mk2 and I am unable to get useable video from it. I presume that the Cineform software is able to transform footage from the 5D into a NLE program at a very high quality but I am unable to determine what the workflow might be. My computer is a iMac with a 2.16 GHZ Intel Core 2 Duo operating on Mac OSX 10.5.6, my editing program is Adobe Premier Pro CS4 and I would like to publish to either a DVD or Blue Ray. Your comments and advise will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Kent

Cineform Neo Scene + Prem Cs4
 

Hello,

Since there is loads of questions in here might as well put my question in here.

Software is:

Neo Scene 1.2 build 113
Prem CS4 4.1

Source footage is from the Z1E (1440*1080 1.33) - I'm new to CS4 and Neo.

When I export my uncompressed video the aspect ratio isnt correct and not sure why?

Talk to support as it is not clear to me what you are saying.

Talk to support as it is not clear to me what you are saying. CineForm is compressed. It could be that VfW engine is Adobe is not handling the aspect ratio correctly. You could just output as 1920x1080.

Sorry think its a simple user error on my side. I want to export a full uncompressed version of my video but when I do the video doesnt play in Windows Media player and when I view the details of it its a different res from what I set on the export settings.

See the attached pictures?

I've got another quick question this is the 1st time I've used Neo Scene, I have used Aspect HD before. With Neo Scene my M2T files are coming out with a resolution of 1536 x 1080? Is that right?

With the Aspect product it was 1440*1080?

This is the codec used by windows media player to open M2T files - MainConcept (Adobe2) MPEG Video Decoder.

Right I sorted my self -

The reason it was on 960*540 is the "fast setting" in cineform was set so media player was using that.

In CS4 should we have a Editing Presets? My previews are very jerky?

Its setup on "Editing" mode? A google google seems to confirm its CS4 though, can someone confirm?

Neo scene and pp cs3
 

Months have gone by and still yet I havnt gotten My AVI files from Neo Scene to work with cs3. I know people have moved on to bigger and better upgrades, but I unfortunately dont have that luxury. So please, to any body who has sucessfully figured out this process let me know. If i had the money I would buy the NeoHD and cs4, but I already purchased neoscene and cs3. When I import the avi files I get nothing but audio and a black screen or somtimes green. A comprehensive guide or workflow of this process, from any body who has sucessfully figured this out would by eternally appriciated.

Thanks

I wish I could help you out, but NeoScene, Windows XP (32-bit) and Premier Pro CS3 work perfectly for me.

Julian

What other software do you have on the PC? I had this problem with Neoscene when DVD Architect 5.0b was installed. Reverting back to DVD Architect 5.0 solved the problem. You may have a similar problem.

Ron Evans